Showing your faith by your works

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Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#81
All things about me spiritually, changes. Upon salvation I am a child of God, reborn, washed, justified and sanctified....but, my flesh is not. Do my actions change? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the outside influences I'm surrounded with in my life. If I were an alcoholic, I'd still be an alcoholic after my conversion.

Do I automatically go onto doing labor pleasing unto the Lord? Not necessarily. A new believer needs discipleship in the word and proper spiritual influences to grow and mature to bear fruit.
This is our disagreement then. When you say "maybe, maybe not, I disagree, you WILL. If there is no change then you are not saved. Really man do you think our God so powerless? Is that you? You've been saved but do NOTHING for God, or even as a result of Him giving you spiritual life? If you have tasted the power of God and been born again there is no way you could make this case. At all.
The man that says "I'm saved and do nothing for Jesus", I call deceived at the very least, and deceptive at worst, but that's what your putting forth as truth about our King. I'm sorry but I will proclaim my God to be more powerful than yours, when my God saves He changes us from the inside out, and it is VERY evident to all who know you.

Still want to make a case for your powerless, pathetic, ineffective, and completely pointless God that saves us for no reason? Sorry to put it so bluntly, but we are talking about two different Gods here. One last time lets get to the nitty gritty, all we can testify of is what God has done in us truly, so all hypothetical's aside, in YOUR life, when you were saved was there a change in you?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#82
Yes, they had works, just not works pleasing to the Lord.
Agreed, his motives were wrong, but he did work, and it never says ALL his works were burnt up. So what?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#83
when you were saved was there a change in you?
Yep, I was brought up in a Christian home with Christian influences in my life. I was attending a Bible believing church and was disciple early on to know what God desired of me. But this is not everybody's experience. Let me give you another example:

I had the privilege of leading a man to the Lord on a mission trip to El Salvador. We were way off the beaten path, hours from the nearest town. That man heard the gospel message and responded. That man left our meeting that night with no Bible, no church around for hours, no godly influence in his life whatsoever. He was an alcoholic surrounding by the world. Did this man go onto good works, living for the Lord? Maybe, but I doubt it. He probably continued to be an alcoholic. But I know one thing, Our God saved his soul that night. That's power! Without God's word, how does that man know what the Lord desires for him to do? How does he know how to live the crucified life? You think it comes automatically. I think it comes from God's word. Good works die out quick without the power of God's word working in the believer's life.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#84
Yep, I was brought up in a Christian home with Christian influences in my life. I was attending a Bible believing church and was disciple early on to know what God desired of me. But this is not everybody's experience. Let me give you another example:

I had the privilege of leading a man to the Lord on a mission trip to El Salvador. We were way off the beaten path, hours from the nearest town. That man heard the gospel message and responded. That man left our meeting that night with no Bible, no church around for hours, no godly influence in his life whatsoever. He was an alcoholic surrounding by the world. Did this man go onto good works, living for the Lord? Maybe, but I doubt it. He probably continued to be an alcoholic. But I know one thing, Our God saved his soul that night. That's power! Without God's word, how does that man know what the Lord desires for him to do? How does he know how to live the crucified life? You think it comes automatically. I think it comes from God's word. Good works die out quick without the power of God's word working in the believer's life.
I want to start right off with the insulting tone and arrogance of telling me what I think. Who are you to tell me that? Do you know how I was saved? Do you know how He revealed His power to me? I wasn't raised in a Christian home, and my rebirth was as radical as a rebirth can be, and since then He has done nothing but amaze me with His sovereign Majesty, and grown me, each day is exciting in truth and power, and all matching His word, and I will boldly proclaim His power to change men. Why does that offend you? I LOVE hearing it from others lips. Not some soft powerless, "stay the same" hypothetical crap. Boo.

Honestly I agree with what you said for the most part, but the power my God is more than a very emotional moment, that can be a dime a dozen. Another thing that you can not know is if God saved his soul that night, and if you are right and He did, and all the faith you have in our God is that "He probably continued to be an alcoholic", just WOW, what a sad view of Gods power you have and NO faith in His power to change men. God takes men like that, turns them from their way to death, and uses them to starts 50 churches up and down South America. That's what kind of power my God has, it truly saddens me you have a God with no power. Why? No hope, no faith. I don't want to follow your god. He's weak. Come follow Jesus Christ, He can take the weakest to show His strength, and transform him into someone that can actually please our Creator, can take wretched men, and transform us to glorify Him. Come follow my Strong King, He is the way, the truth, the life, light, hope, strength, courage. The God I serve makes yours seem irrelevant. Serve the God worth all PRAISE, Jesus our King.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#85
If you maintain that anyone who "teaches a losable salvation . . . by default it is a works based salvation" then you have no right to bellyache or complain if someone tells you that if anyone "teaches that salvation cannot be lost . . . by default they believe that they can sin like the devil and it doesn't matter."
No comparison pal....and if you believe you can lose it, you must do something to keep it and if you believe it needs to be maintained then you must do something to maintain it...= works based salvation......get some honesty pal....there is no comparison!!
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#86
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Faith without works is a dead faith. Works are a manifestation of one's salvation but not a cause of it. You cannot earn your way to heaven but that does not mean that one is exempt from works as evidenced by the parable of the three persons with talents.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#87
Faith without works is a dead faith. Works are a manifestation of one's salvation but not a cause of it. You cannot earn your way to heaven but that does not mean that one is exempt from works as evidenced by the parable of the three persons with talents.
To say two things......

a. Those who have believed have the Work of the Heavenly Father in BELIEVING ON HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT

AND the following is clear.......

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#88
No comparison pal....and if you believe you can lose it, you must do something to keep it and if you believe it needs to be maintained then you must do something to maintain it...= works based salvation......get some honesty pal....there is no comparison!!
You are actually right - there is absolutely no comparison:

I believe in Jesus Christ and in Him alone and am daily trusting His blood atonement for my salvation. I know who I have believed and am persuaded that He will keep me - and He is faithful - His yoke is easy; His burden is light: His is my God and my Saviour, and I love Him and He loves Me! His is in me, and I am in Him! He is making me more and more like Him day by day, and for the honor and glory of His name I live daily for His kingdom!

So what do you have? a decision you made at a point in time that is the basis for your assurance; but now if you don't do enough good deeds to maintain it, then people will say, "Oh, he was never saved in the first place". I will let you work to maintain your good position before God and others; I will rest in the love and grace and mercy of my Redeemer and serve Him with all my heart, soul, and mind!
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#89
Faith without works is a dead faith. Works are a manifestation of one's salvation but not a cause of it. You cannot earn your way to heaven but that does not mean that one is exempt from works as evidenced by the parable of the three persons with talents.
The famous circular argument strikes back

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#90
You are actually right - there is absolutely no comparison:

I believe in Jesus Christ and in Him alone and am daily trusting His blood atonement for my salvation. I know who I have believed and am persuaded that He will keep me - and He is faithful - His yoke is easy; His burden is light: His is my God and my Saviour, and I love Him and He loves Me! His is in me, and I am in Him! He is making me more and more like Him day by day, and for the honor and glory of His name I live daily for His kingdom!

So what do you have? a decision you made at a point in time that is the basis for your assurance; but now if you don't do enough good deeds to maintain it, then people will say, "Oh, he was never saved in the first place". I will let you work to maintain your good position before God and others; I will rest in the love and grace and mercy of my Redeemer and serve Him with all my heart, soul, and mind!
You obviously have no understanding of my position....My positioning in Christ is held secure by Christ and what he has done and does do on my behalf....nice try to twist what you know I believe I to something I do not believe....very deceptive pal!!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,089
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#91
You obviously have no understanding of my position....My positioning in Christ is held secure by Christ and what he has done and does do on my behalf....nice try to twist what you know I believe I to something I do not believe....very deceptive pal!!
On the other hand, I might know more about your position than you think . . .

This I know: that if tomorrow you go out and start "sinning like the devil" your friends will look in at your life and conclude that, "well, he must never have been saved to start with". That observation I know I am not wrong about.

This also I know: you are created in the image of God with the moral capability of doing just that: going out and sinning like the devil!

I also am created in the image of God with the moral capability of going out tomorrow and sinning like the devil. But Christ in me compels me to live for my Redeemer. I pray the same is true of you; and I have good reason to hope it is true of you!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#92
On the other hand, I might know more about your position than you think . . .

This I know: that if tomorrow you go out and start "sinning like the devil" your friends will look in at your life and conclude that, "well, he must never have been saved to start with". That observation I know I am not wrong about.

This also I know: you are created in the image of God with the moral capability of doing just that: going out and sinning like the devil!

I also am created in the image of God with the moral capability of going out tomorrow and sinning like the devil. But Christ in me compels me to live for my Redeemer. I pray the same is true of you; and I have good reason to hope it is true of you!
Wrong answer pal....greater is he that is in me than he than is in the world....and a child of God may fail, fall and sin yet will not live a continual lifestyle of sin....No....I say at the end of the day you don't know what you are talking about!!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,928
2,861
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#93
I want to start right off with the insulting tone and arrogance of telling me what I think. Who are you to tell me that? Do you know how I was saved? Do you know how He revealed His power to me? I wasn't raised in a Christian home, and my rebirth was as radical as a rebirth can be, and since then He has done nothing but amaze me with His sovereign Majesty, and grown me, each day is exciting in truth and power, and all matching His word, and I will boldly proclaim His power to change men. Why does that offend you? I LOVE hearing it from others lips. Not some soft powerless, "stay the same" hypothetical crap. Boo.

Honestly I agree with what you said for the most part, but the power my God is more than a very emotional moment, that can be a dime a dozen. Another thing that you can not know is if God saved his soul that night, and if you are right and He did, and all the faith you have in our God is that "He probably continued to be an alcoholic", just WOW, what a sad view of Gods power you have and NO faith in His power to change men. God takes men like that, turns them from their way to death, and uses them to starts 50 churches up and down South America. That's what kind of power my God has, it truly saddens me you have a God with no power. Why? No hope, no faith. I don't want to follow your god. He's weak. Come follow Jesus Christ, He can take the weakest to show His strength, and transform him into someone that can actually please our Creator, can take wretched men, and transform us to glorify Him. Come follow my Strong King, He is the way, the truth, the life, light, hope, strength, courage. The God I serve makes yours seem irrelevant. Serve the God worth all PRAISE, Jesus our King.
My father got saved being an alcoholic and fought alcoholism for twenty years after his conversion.

Me, I went through about ten years of my life where there was really zero evidence of my faith. I praise the Lord for the godly influences in my life that fed me God’s word and got me back on track.

I have never responded with bad intentions to you brother, just trying to have a civil, real conversation. We serve the same Saviour, Jesus Christ.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
17,211
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#94
All things about me spiritually, changes. Upon salvation I am a child of God, reborn, washed, justified and sanctified....but, my flesh is not. Do my actions change? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the outside influences I'm surrounded with in my life. If I were an alcoholic, I'd still be an alcoholic after my conversion.

Do I automatically go onto doing labor pleasing unto the Lord? Not necessarily. A new believer needs discipleship in the word and proper spiritual influences to grow and mature to bear fruit.
Your actions are going to change if you walk in the spirit, thats why you have to be singleminded about God, otherwise you wont receive anything from Him.
This is why James was encourgaing people in his letter, even exhorting them to have a really good look at their actions. Its not hard to make a choice to act on the good things God wants us to do, and to know we have the choice to make good choices!

Something does change in your heart so that you will WANT to and desire to do good things, such as, given in James example, you see someone whos cold and they dont have a coat, you give them your extra warm clothing. You see someone panting and thirsty, you offer them a cup of tea. Simple things like that. You dont say oh that will be $3 for that cup of tea and $75 for the coat. Dont have enougn money? Sorry, stay cold and thirsty.

And nobody really needs to be discipled with years if bible study to do that, most people, born again, know thats the right thing to do.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#95
Your actions are going to change if you walk in the spirit, thats why you have to be singleminded about God, otherwise you wont receive anything from Him.
Agreed, but what about those believers who walk after the flesh and not the Spirit?

Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. One needs to be in God's word to know how to live a life pleasing to the Lord. No bible, no spiritual influence or discipleship leads to carnal, worldly Christians.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
17,211
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#96
Agreed, but what about those believers who walk after the flesh and not the Spirit?

Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. One needs to be in God's word to know how to live a life pleasing to the Lord. No bible, no spiritual influence or discipleship leads to carnal, worldly Christians.
If they not walking in the spirit we need to diagnose the problem and get them to see they can. When most people start believing, they will repent and be baptised. Now baptism declares that you are dying to flesh and being raised to life in the spirit. You will be given the holy spirit, its a gift you receive right?

And you flesh has died. But say your flesh keeps rising up. Investigate, do you really believe Jesus has put to death sin, and paid for it by his blood? Then repent of whatever the flesh is saying to do, you mortify it and walk in His ways.

Yes absolutely the spirit will lead you to hunger for his Word so you can listen to Him. But one also cos you now living by faith, need to PUT TO DEATH your old man. This is where delieverance comes in. Some people really need the yoke of bondage to satan broken off them to even begin walking in the spirit. And they need to walk forward and NOT look back to their life of sin.

And not only the Word comes to you, in reading the bible, discipleship, but prayer also. The holy spirit is your helper, he helps you, leads you, guides you. IF you fail to receive the holy spirit, and hes not dwelling in you, of course you just going to do whatever you thinks best. Thats not the way, thats your own way. Even if you read the Bible ten times, without the spirit, guding you, you cant do anything. So make sure you listen to Him and do what He says. make sure you have actually recieved and are filled! LIsten to that still small voice. Dont ignore Him.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#97
The famous circular argument strikes back

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
Actually, it is stated in the book of James that faith without works is a dead faith. This is not my opinion but only stated what was written in the bible.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#98
Actually, it is stated in the book of James that faith without works is a dead faith. This is not my opinion but only stated what was written in the bible.
Yes, you are right. The circular argument came in because people like you want to mix James with Paul. The result is mixture and kills off both points.

Here is a clue, the book of James was the earliest NT letter written, written even before Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council event. And at Acts 21, we continue to hear this from James

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

So my advice to people like yourself would be, either you stick with James all the way and say that it is faith AND works that save you, or you stick with Paul, who said it is faith APART from works that saves you.

The moment people try to have both Paul and James in the same argument, it becomes circular.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#99
I had to disagree with your comment for this part alone, "If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for",
this is nonsense brother, it really is. Are you saying that our Lord Jesus didn't have faith in His example to us in Mat. 26:38-39?

38 Then He said to them, “My soul is consumed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with Me.” 39 Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.

I want to be in my Fathers will, His will be done, not mine. I am ONLY here for His glory, not the other way around. I think the rest of what you said was pretty sound, but this "don't pray His will, it shows you don't have faith in what you're praying for" is dangerous falsehood. I will pray "if it be Your will", because I trust God to know whats better for me more than I trust myself. That thinking is too "man centered", when we need to be God centered.
It's not nonsense if you know what faith is and how it works.
The difference between your pray and Jesus' is, He KNEW what the will of the Father was, you don't.
Jesus didn't ask the Father what His will was, He knew what was written of Him, and what He was sent to do.
You, on the other hand, are being like doubting Thomas. You are moved by what you see, feel, and experience, and use the outcome or end results to dictate what the will of the Father was or is.
For example, let's say you pray for yourself of a loved one for healing.
Since you don't know what the will of God is concerning your prayer for a specific request, you pray saying, "if it be you will Father, would you heal so and so?"
And from there, you use the end result, usually within a day or two, to determine what God's will is.
If the person gets better, then it was God's will for them to be healed, and if they get worse, then it wasn't.
Tell me if you can, where do you see any faith in all that nonsense?
The only thing you are doing is HOPING God will heal so and so, WISHING He grant you your request, but still WONDERING what He will do, because you don't know what His will is and because you don't believe some things written in the bible. You say you believe, but like most, you don't really.
God promises to heal THE BELIEVERS, NOT THE DOUBTERS.
Do you know what faith is and how it works?
What's the difference between hoping and biblical believing?
We all know God CAN do what we ask for, the big question is, not only WILL HE, but do we know He will?
To answer my questions above, hope thinks it will happen sometime in the future, where believing thinks it's done NOW, as in, present tense.
What is faith and how does it work?
In a nutshell, faith IS the very thing you desire.
And it works by acting on what you believe in your heart.
Romans 10:8-10 tells you how it works.
You either say what you believe and/or act on what you believe.
If you don't know what the will of your Father is, you cannot have any confidence or assurance He will grant your request. You will not be "fully persuaded" God will do anything, because you either don't know the promises of His word, and/or you don't believe them.
You also most likely don't believe you have anything to do with the outcome of your request or prayer to God, so in your eyes, there is no such thing as to whether faith works or not, it's all up to God. Right?
The truth is, faith works irrespective of what God's will is for us.
I'm not advocating bypassing God's will.
We should pray IN LINE with God's will BY PRAYING ACCORDING TO HIS WORD.
If you know what He said, and believe that, then you can pray according to God's will and not just your own.
What did you do to get saved?
Did you ask God, "if it be your will, would you save me, if I receive Jesus as my personal lord and savior?"
If you read the word of God and believe what is written as truth, then you won't wonder what God's will is, you will KNOW. You won't HOPE God saves you, you KNOW He will.
What if you didn't know, would God still save you?
No, because you didn't act on it in faith.
You have to know what the will of God is and what He said, in order for you to have any faith in God to fulfill His promise.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
Yes, you are right. The circular argument came in because people like you want to mix James with Paul. The result is mixture and kills off both points.

Here is a clue, the book of James was the earliest NT letter written, written even before Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council event. And at Acts 21, we continue to hear this from James

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

So my advice to people like yourself would be, either you stick with James all the way and say that it is faith AND works that save you, or you stick with Paul, who said it is faith APART from works that saves you.

The moment people try to have both Paul and James in the same argument, it becomes circular.
James and Paul didnt have two different gospels. they both taught the teachings of Jesus. James made it loud and clear faith with out works is not faith. Paul agrees when He says by faith we establish the law and they both obeyed the law. the only difference is they way they taught, James taught in the Hebrew way and Paul taught in the Greek, none the less they taught the same thing. the berean Jews even tested Pauls teachings against scripture, they checked out, sorry but Paul was not teaching a new religion.