Signs that follow them that believeth.

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Feb 22, 2021
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#1
It is written in Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


This is what was written concerning the signs that follow them that believe. Yet in Matthew 7:21 it is written:

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


You will be able to see for yourself, that the signs that follow them that believe, is also the things that people who did not make heaven claimed they did.


How can this be explained?

It is obvious first of all that the people claiming to do those things, signs that prove belief,

1. knew they were talking to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
2. really believed that they did those things, and believed in HIM.


Can anyone explain this?

Jesus His Pre-Eminence makes it clear here: But he that doeth the will of my father in heaven.

What is that?

 

stepbystep

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2020
613
488
63
#2
Jesus His Pre-Eminence makes it clear here: But he that doeth the will of my father in heaven.

What is that?
This statement appears several times in Scripture. Each time "the will of God" differs to some extent.

omans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 - In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Jeremiah 29:11-13 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (Read More...)

John 6:38-40 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (Read More...)

Hebrews 13:20-21 - Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Read More...)

1 Peter 2:15 - For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

1 John 2:16-17 - For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (Read More...)

Ephesians 5:17 - Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Read More...)

Matthew 6:33 - But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Proverbs 19:21 - [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

James 4:15 - For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: (Read More...)

Matthew 6:10 - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
#3
This statement appears several times in Scripture. Each time "the will of God" differs to some extent.

omans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 - In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Jeremiah 29:11-13 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (Read More...)

John 6:38-40 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (Read More...)

Hebrews 13:20-21 - Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Read More...)

1 Peter 2:15 - For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

1 John 2:16-17 - For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (Read More...)

Ephesians 5:17 - Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Read More...)

Matthew 6:33 - But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Proverbs 19:21 - [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

James 4:15 - For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: (Read More...)

Matthew 6:10 - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
So the question is, if they are the signs that follow them that believe, then they must have believed. So why are those same signs the things that they said they did, and Jesus His Pre-Eminence said, HE never knew them, begone, ye workers of iniquity?
 

stepbystep

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2020
613
488
63
#4
I was not speaking of "the signs......." You asked what the will of God is.....that is what I was addressing
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
#5
This statement appears several times in Scripture. Each time "the will of God" differs to some extent.

omans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 - In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Jeremiah 29:11-13 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (Read More...)

John 6:38-40 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (Read More...)

Hebrews 13:20-21 - Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Read More...)

1 Peter 2:15 - For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

1 John 2:16-17 - For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (Read More...)

Ephesians 5:17 - Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Read More...)

Matthew 6:33 - But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Proverbs 19:21 - [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

James 4:15 - For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: (Read More...)

Matthew 6:10 - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
The will of GOD is that none should perish.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,462
2,456
113
#7
Can anyone explain this?
Through rightly dividing the word of truth. This is not a Christian doctrine. Signs were given to the apostles to give the Jews validity of the message they preached. The Jews require signs. We walk by faith not by sight.
 
Feb 22, 2021
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#8
Through rightly dividing the word of truth. This is not a Christian doctrine. Signs were given to the apostles to give the Jews validity of the message they preached. The Jews require signs. We walk by faith not by sight.
This is written in the bible spoken by Jesus His Pre-Eminence, who is the reason why there is "christian" at all.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#9
It is written in Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This is what was written concerning the signs that follow them that believe. Yet in Matthew 7:21 it is written:

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You will be able to see for yourself, that the signs that follow them that believe, is also the things that people who did not make heaven claimed they did.


How can this be explained?

It is obvious first of all that the people claiming to do those things, signs that prove belief,

1. knew they were talking to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
2. really believed that they did those things, and believed in HIM.


Can anyone explain this?

Jesus His Pre-Eminence makes it clear here: But he that doeth the will of my father in heaven.

What is that?
Notice that in the Matthew reference the ones whom Jesus rejected SAID they prophesied and cast out demons, and did mighty works in His name. Jesus never acknowledged that they actually DID them.

Also, there are false "prophets to the nation" in some churches, a ministry that is not supported in the New Testament. We also have those in churches who see a demon behind every bush, and cast demons out of people where there are no demons at all. And the "mighty works" may not be the works that Jesus said that His disciples would do, even greater works. The true greater works is the spread of the gospel throughout the whole world - something that Jesus did not do, along with the thousands of testimonies of people who have been genuinely healed of every medical condition you can think of, as well as the multitudes who have been set free from demonic influences in their lives.

Jesus was referring to the religious hypocrites who came over the wall instead of the strait gate of salvation through Him, and who talked the talk, and presented themselves as genuine believers, but never pressed into Christ to become truly converted to Him. These are the ones who are angels at church on Sunday morning, but devils at work and at home. Spotting a religious hypocrite is to see how he conducts himself away from the view of fellow church members, and to see what his wife and children, as well as his boss at work think he is really like.

I asked my daughter what I was like at church and at home, and she said that I was just the same at church as I am at home - with my non-religious dedication to Christ, my strong sense of values, and my "Far Side" sense of humour! It is amusing to me that some of my fellow church members think I am irreligious, and my wife sometimes thinks I am too religious for her! But she is good for me, because she keeps my feet on the ground and keeps me from going into flights of theological fancy!
 
Mar 17, 2021
462
127
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#10
It is written in Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This is what was written concerning the signs that follow them that believe. Yet in Matthew 7:21 it is written:

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You will be able to see for yourself, that the signs that follow them that believe, is also the things that people who did not make heaven claimed they did.


How can this be explained?

It is obvious first of all that the people claiming to do those things, signs that prove belief,

1. knew they were talking to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
2. really believed that they did those things, and believed in HIM.


Can anyone explain this?

Jesus His Pre-Eminence makes it clear here: But he that doeth the will of my father in heaven.

What is that?
Jesus said that the will of God is to believing on the One whom He has sent. This is the type of belief and faith that transforms the heart to a full commitment to Christ, and not just an outward display of religiosity at church on Sunday mornings.
 
Mar 17, 2021
462
127
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#11
So the question is, if they are the signs that follow them that believe, then they must have believed. So why are those same signs the things that they said they did, and Jesus His Pre-Eminence said, HE never knew them, begone, ye workers of iniquity?
This is the old chestnut that Cessationists use to spook people out of believing in the continuance of the Spiritual gifts in the church today. In the Matthew reference, if we look at the context, Jesus was talking about religious hypocrites and not genuine believers.
 
Mar 17, 2021
462
127
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#12
Through rightly dividing the word of truth. This is not a Christian doctrine. Signs were given to the apostles to give the Jews validity of the message they preached. The Jews require signs. We walk by faith not by sight.
Oh? My reading of the book of Acts shows that the miracles of healing and deliverance from demons caused multitudes of non-Jewish pagans to turn to Christ and this was the cause of Christianizing the Roman Empire.

Also, reading the context of what Jesus was referring to as signs the Jews were looking for, it is obvious that He was not referring to His ministry of healing the sick and casting out of demons. The signs the Jews were looking for were quite different.

As Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in His home town, and was just able to heal a few sick people, it is the same in our churches. There is such a general attitude of unbelief and religious hypocrisy in modern churches, over all denominations, that Jesus, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, can't do much in the way of mighty works or widespread healing of the sick. What many people think walking in faith is actually walking in presumption.

In actual fact, in modern times, when a person has been genuinely healed of a terminal disease, his whole family, friends, and many of his community have turned to Christ as a result, because they are convinced that Jesus is real and alive.

Just quoting passages of the Bible doesn't prove that Jesus is real and alive. But when the Holy Spirit involves Himself with the Bible in the lives of people, then the reality of the living Jesus is revealed, drawing people to him in true conversion to Him.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,617
271
83
#13
It is written in Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This is what was written concerning the signs that follow them that believe. Yet in Matthew 7:21 it is written:

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You will be able to see for yourself, that the signs that follow them that believe, is also the things that people who did not make heaven claimed they did.


How can this be explained?

It is obvious first of all that the people claiming to do those things, signs that prove belief,

1. knew they were talking to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
2. really believed that they did those things, and believed in HIM.


Can anyone explain this?

Jesus His Pre-Eminence makes it clear here: But he that doeth the will of my father in heaven.

What is that?
It is a matter of belonging, is it not? Mark the words of the Lord when He tell the lost crowd "I NEVER knew you". So, these people never belonged to the Lord. Most certainly these people did NOT believe (in the true and saving sense of the word). The signs and wonders of those that believe must be taken into the context that they actually believe. That non-believers, false prophets, worldlings can appear to "perform" basically the same signs and wonders is not an evidence that they actually believe.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,008
397
83
#14
Oh? My reading of the book of Acts shows that the miracles of healing and deliverance from demons caused multitudes of non-Jewish pagans to turn to Christ and this was the cause of Christianizing the Roman Empire.

Also, reading the context of what Jesus was referring to as signs the Jews were looking for, it is obvious that He was not referring to His ministry of healing the sick and casting out of demons. The signs the Jews were looking for were quite different.

As Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in His home town, and was just able to heal a few sick people, it is the same in our churches. There is such a general attitude of unbelief and religious hypocrisy in modern churches, over all denominations, that Jesus, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, can't do much in the way of mighty works or widespread healing of the sick. What many people think walking in faith is actually walking in presumption.

In actual fact, in modern times, when a person has been genuinely healed of a terminal disease, his whole family, friends, and many of his community have turned to Christ as a result, because they are convinced that Jesus is real and alive.

Just quoting passages of the Bible doesn't prove that Jesus is real and alive. But when the Holy Spirit involves Himself with the Bible in the lives of people, then the reality of the living Jesus is revealed, drawing people to him in true conversion to Him.
For to know that Jesus is real I heared the sermon of a youthpreacher. The Holy Spirit opens my understanding from my guilt. I needed no sign ore wonder.
Those signs and wonder, we find today not in the genuine church, but in the Mission situation. What bothers me, is that today people teach that signs and wonder belongs to an Christian life. Signs and wonder were there and still are there to show that Jesus is real Gods son and God himself. As a xhild of God I dont need signs and wonder for to proove that I am His child. They are still there gor to gloryfie Him and bring people into his family, according His will
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#15
Oh? My reading of the book of Acts shows that the miracles of healing and deliverance from demons caused multitudes of non-Jewish pagans to turn to Christ and this was the cause of Christianizing the Roman Empire.

Also, reading the context of what Jesus was referring to as signs the Jews were looking for, it is obvious that He was not referring to His ministry of healing the sick and casting out of demons. The signs the Jews were looking for were quite different.

As Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in His home town, and was just able to heal a few sick people, it is the same in our churches. There is such a general attitude of unbelief and religious hypocrisy in modern churches, over all denominations, that Jesus, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, can't do much in the way of mighty works or widespread healing of the sick. What many people think walking in faith is actually walking in presumption.

In actual fact, in modern times, when a person has been genuinely healed of a terminal disease, his whole family, friends, and many of his community have turned to Christ as a result, because they are convinced that Jesus is real and alive.

Just quoting passages of the Bible doesn't prove that Jesus is real and alive. But when the Holy Spirit involves Himself with the Bible in the lives of people, then the reality of the living Jesus is revealed, drawing people to him in true conversion to Him.
You worship in Bethel or Word of Faith churches?
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#16
For to know that Jesus is real I heared the sermon of a youthpreacher. The Holy Spirit opens my understanding from my guilt. I needed no sign ore wonder.
Those signs and wonder, we find today not in the genuine church, but in the Mission situation. What bothers me, is that today people teach that signs and wonder belongs to an Christian life. Signs and wonder were there and still are there to show that Jesus is real Gods son and God himself. As a xhild of God I dont need signs and wonder for to proove that I am His child. They are still there gor to gloryfie Him and bring people into his family, according His will
I agree. The purpose of signs and wonders has been the same all the while since the 1st Century. Jesus said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel, AND these signs shall follow those who believe,,," etc. The two are Scripturally linked. Preaching the gospel and the signs and wonders following. We need the supernatural power of God, healing the sick and casting out demons just the same today, as was needed in the 1st Century. We see an enormous rise in the occult with its own supernatural components. This is replacing the power of the Holy Spirit that the churches have ignored for so long. When the genuine is rejected, the counterfeit gains the ascendancy.

Paul says that the real power of God is the gospel of Christ that leads sinners to salvation. When that is coupled with signs and wonders, as following the 1st Century Apostles and believers, we will see more neo-pagans and occult worshipers turning to Christ as they did in the 1st Century.

But as long as the power of the Holy Spirit is rejected by the unbelieving churches through laziness, neglect, and Cessationist teaching, we will see the preaching of the gospel defeated by the supernatural power of the occult and neo-pagan worship in our societies. If the sight of the signs and wonders in the 1st Century turned the pagan world to Christ, then the same signs and wonders will defeat the neo-paganism that is becoming a feature in our societies.
 
Mar 17, 2021
462
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#17
You worship in Bethel or Word of Faith churches?
No. I belong to a small suburban Methodist/Presbyterian Union church, along with six elderly ladies and one other gentleman. I consider the extreme Word of Faith doctrine espoused by Kenny Copeland and others like him as pseuo-Christian cultish heresy, and I see the Bethel church as a pseudo-Charismatic cult that is embracing neo-pagan, occult practices.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#18
John Calvin said in his John's Gospel commentary that to ignore the gifts of God (and my view the supernatural gifts of the Spirit) is laziness, ingratitude to God for what He has done for us and provided for us, and an insult to Him. I believe the same concerning Cessationist doctrine that denies that the supernatural gifts are for today's churches.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,008
397
83
#19
I agree. The purpose of signs and wonders has been the same all the while since the 1st Century. Jesus said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel, AND these signs shall follow those who believe,,," etc. The two are Scripturally linked. Preaching the gospel and the signs and wonders following. We need the supernatural power of God, healing the sick and casting out demons just the same today, as was needed in the 1st Century. We see an enormous rise in the occult with its own supernatural components. This is replacing the power of the Holy Spirit that the churches have ignored for so long. When the genuine is rejected, the counterfeit gains the ascendancy.

Paul says that the real power of God is the gospel of Christ that leads sinners to salvation. When that is coupled with signs and wonders, as following the 1st Century Apostles and believers, we will see more neo-pagans and occult worshipers turning to Christ as they did in the 1st Century.

But as long as the power of the Holy Spirit is rejected by the unbelieving churches through laziness, neglect, and Cessationist teaching, we will see the preaching of the gospel defeated by the supernatural power of the occult and neo-pagan worship in our societies. If the sight of the signs and wonders in the 1st Century turned the pagan world to Christ, then the same signs and wonders will defeat the neo-paganism that is becoming a feature in our societies.
Well, in your understanding I am a cessationist. Why? Because I dont believe the pentecostal/charismatic teaching about this matter and special their teaching about the gift of the Holy Spirit. According your understanding it would be found more sign and wonder if the believer would taught and believe this. I live in germany, and I know charismatics and pentecostal, and at least in their churches you should find the faith, you talking about. But I heared never in my over 30 years as Christian that more sign ore wonder came from them which convinced pagans to turn to Christ., then in other Christian churches where the Gospel is preached.
But I heared from many false teachings about health and wealth. Visions and dreams.
If someone find to Christ, then because the Holy Spirit open his heart for the true Gospel.
Sometimes he uses miracles, but manly his word. The word is true, signs and wonder can be copied from the enemie.
And Jesus himself said, that people can heal and do miracles and cast out demons in his name, but he dont know them.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#20
No. I belong to a small suburban Methodist/Presbyterian Union church, along with six elderly ladies and one other gentleman. I consider the extreme Word of Faith doctrine espoused by Kenny Copeland and others like him as pseuo-Christian cultish heresy, and I see the Bethel church as a pseudo-Charismatic cult that is embracing neo-pagan, occult practices.
You are saying the same doctrine preached in those churches

https://www.charismanews.com/opinio...he-kingdom-through-miracles-signs-and-wonders