Signs that follow them that believeth.

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Mar 17, 2021
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#21
Well, in your understanding I am a cessationist. Why? Because I dont believe the pentecostal/charismatic teaching about this matter and special their teaching about the gift of the Holy Spirit. According your understanding it would be found more sign and wonder if the believer would taught and believe this. I live in germany, and I know charismatics and pentecostal, and at least in their churches you should find the faith, you talking about. But I heared never in my over 30 years as Christian that more sign ore wonder came from them which convinced pagans to turn to Christ., then in other Christian churches where the Gospel is preached.
But I heared from many false teachings about health and wealth. Visions and dreams.
If someone find to Christ, then because the Holy Spirit open his heart for the true Gospel.
Sometimes he uses miracles, but manly his word. The word is true, signs and wonder can be copied from the enemie.
And Jesus himself said, that people can heal and do miracles and cast out demons in his name, but he dont know them.
I can understand your position. Tragically the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has been corrupted and hijacked by the Prosperity, health and wealth Word of Faith crowd, and they have put themselves at the forefront of the modern Charismatic movement.

it certainly isn't the Pentecostal movement that I signed up for in 1966. In those days, there wasn't all the nonsense that seems to characterise the popular Charismatic movement, with its gold dust raining from the ceiling, uncontrolled kumalini manifestations, claiming healing when there is no evidence of it, false prophecies that never come to pass, naming and claiming material "wants" instead of trusting God to supply our needs. It seems that holiness has gone out the window, and the real power of the Holy Spirit has been replaced by froth and bubble jerking, falling down, uncontrolled laughter, rolling around the floor, convulsive nodding of the head and shaking.

If we look at the ministry of Jesus which is our example of genuine Christian ministry, we see none of that nonsense. In Bethel church, a group performed pagan incantations right on the stage, fully supported by the leadership of the church. Hillsong's music is designed to put people into hypnotic style trances to hype them up to all sorts of occult-like manifestations. None of this is found in the Book of Acts.

What we see in the ministry of Jesus and the book of Acts, are people being healed of sickness and disease, resulting in multitudes turning to Christ. We see demons cast out, convincing the pagan community that Jesus Christ has more power than the pagan gods they were worshiping, causing them to reject paganism and to turn to Christ.

There are Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that are believing in and allowing the Holy Spirit to work with them to show the unsaved communities around them that Jesus Christ is more than just words in a book, but He is real and alive, and is totally willing to heal the sick and to set people free from demons. But we don't see those groups featured on Youtube. They don't advertise themselves. They just get on with the job of winning souls to Christ and trusting that the Holy Spirit will work with them with signs following, as the 1st Century evangelists did.

If 1st century Christians had followed the antics of Bethel, Hillsong, and the WOF practices of Kenny Copeland and his fellow heretics, the early church would never have got off the ground, and we would all still be speaking Latin under a modern pagan Roman Empire. These churches and false apostles have corrupted and brought the Charismatic movement into disrepute, and have been used of Satan to derail the true ministry of the Holy Spirit and to rob good evangelists of the power that should accompany the preaching of the gospel.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#22
I am not. My Pentecostal background has come from the teaching of a mature pastor who came from the Methodist Holiness movement. He taught that for someone to truly move in the power of the Holy Spirit he must be a man of the Word and of prayer, and live a totally holy life. I received his teaching in the early 1970s, before the WOF movement was still a minor backwater in the overall Pentecostal movement, and while the Charismatic element was still present in the traditional denominations

He believed that when he prayed for a sick person to be healed, he did not accept healing until the cessation of the symptoms displayed real healing. He had no time for the notion of "healing by faith" while there were still symptoms showing that actual healing had not yet taken place. His defining document apart from the Bible was J.C. Ryle's book "Holiness", and that set the standard for anyone claiming to be moving in the Holy Spirit. He was very strict, and many local Pentecostals from other churches didn't like his ministry, because he wouldn't stand for any of the froth and bubble nonsense. Also, he believed that prophecy should be judged as consistent with what God has already said in Scripture, and if anyone in his church got up and spouted nonsense, he would tell them in no uncertain terms to "sit down!".

I sat under his ministry from 1970-1973, and around 45 years later, it is his teaching that has stood the test of time with me, while the teaching of all others over years had faded from my memory. He would view today's Pentecostalism and Charismatic as heresy and would not have a bar of it. That's why I would never again join a modern Pentecostal or Charismatic church. I think I can do the will of God better in the small Union church that I currently attend.

I believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit as Paul taught them, and not as the current Pentecostal or Charismatic teacher. I would say that 90% of what is being taught today is false and doesn't bear any good fruit for the Lord.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#23
I am not. My Pentecostal background has come from the teaching of a mature pastor who came from the Methodist Holiness movement. He taught that for someone to truly move in the power of the Holy Spirit he must be a man of the Word and of prayer, and live a totally holy life. I received his teaching in the early 1970s, before the WOF movement was still a minor backwater in the overall Pentecostal movement, and while the Charismatic element was still present in the traditional denominations

He believed that when he prayed for a sick person to be healed, he did not accept healing until the cessation of the symptoms displayed real healing. He had no time for the notion of "healing by faith" while there were still symptoms showing that actual healing had not yet taken place. His defining document apart from the Bible was J.C. Ryle's book "Holiness", and that set the standard for anyone claiming to be moving in the Holy Spirit. He was very strict, and many local Pentecostals from other churches didn't like his ministry, because he wouldn't stand for any of the froth and bubble nonsense. Also, he believed that prophecy should be judged as consistent with what God has already said in Scripture, and if anyone in his church got up and spouted nonsense, he would tell them in no uncertain terms to "sit down!".

I sat under his ministry from 1970-1973, and around 45 years later, it is his teaching that has stood the test of time with me, while the teaching of all others over years had faded from my memory. He would view today's Pentecostalism and Charismatic as heresy and would not have a bar of it. That's why I would never again join a modern Pentecostal or Charismatic church. I think I can do the will of God better in the small Union church that I currently attend.

I believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit as Paul taught them, and not as the current Pentecostal or Charismatic teacher. I would say that 90% of what is being taught today is false and doesn't bear any good fruit for the Lord.
Would you agree that, for someone to preach that "signs and wonders" are still for today, it is equivalent to preaching that "the gospel of the kingdom is what we should be preaching today"?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#24
I agree. The purpose of signs and wonders has been the same all the while since the 1st Century. Jesus said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel, AND these signs shall follow those who believe,,," etc. The two are Scripturally linked. Preaching the gospel and the signs and wonders following. We need the supernatural power of God, healing the sick and casting out demons just the same today, as was needed in the 1st Century. We see an enormous rise in the occult with its own supernatural components. This is replacing the power of the Holy Spirit that the churches have ignored for so long. When the genuine is rejected, the counterfeit gains the ascendancy.

Paul says that the real power of God is the gospel of Christ that leads sinners to salvation. When that is coupled with signs and wonders, as following the 1st Century Apostles and believers, we will see more neo-pagans and occult worshipers turning to Christ as they did in the 1st Century.

But as long as the power of the Holy Spirit is rejected by the unbelieving churches through laziness, neglect, and Cessationist teaching, we will see the preaching of the gospel defeated by the supernatural power of the occult and neo-pagan worship in our societies. If the sight of the signs and wonders in the 1st Century turned the pagan world to Christ, then the same signs and wonders will defeat the neo-paganism that is becoming a feature in our societies.
The signs are to confirm the message . To Jews . Jews have always required/ been given signs to confirm the message. Simple .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#25
There are no Christians at the mount . Let's stop battering Christians over the head with scripture not aimed at Christians.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#26
Signs that follow them that believeth.

Fruits of the Spirit...

Matthew
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Signs and wonder were there and still are there to show that Jesus is real Gods son and God himself. As a xhild of God I dont need signs and wonder for to proove that I am His child.
Amen, Aidan! The just shall live by faith.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#27
Oh? My reading of the book of Acts shows that the miracles of healing and deliverance from demons caused multitudes of non-Jewish pagans to turn to Christ and this was the cause of Christianizing the Roman Empire.

Also, reading the context of what Jesus was referring to as signs the Jews were looking for, it is obvious that He was not referring to His ministry of healing the sick and casting out of demons. The signs the Jews were looking for were quite different.

As Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in His home town, and was just able to heal a few sick people, it is the same in our churches. There is such a general attitude of unbelief and religious hypocrisy in modern churches, over all denominations, that Jesus, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, can't do much in the way of mighty works or widespread healing of the sick. What many people think walking in faith is actually walking in presumption.

In actual fact, in modern times, when a person has been genuinely healed of a terminal disease, his whole family, friends, and many of his community have turned to Christ as a result, because they are convinced that Jesus is real and alive.

Just quoting passages of the Bible doesn't prove that Jesus is real and alive. But when the Holy Spirit involves Himself with the Bible in the lives of people, then the reality of the living Jesus is revealed, drawing people to him in true conversion to Him.
Where in the book of Acts are you seeing this ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#28
Signs that follow them that believeth.

Fruits of the Spirit...

Matthew
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


Amen, Aidan! The just shall live by faith.
I'm not sure Matthew 7 says 'Fruits 'of the Spirit ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#29
I'm not sure Matthew 7 says 'Fruits 'of the Spirit ?
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
(John 6:63)
every time Jesus speaks of fruit He is speaking spiritually.
even when you don't think He's talking to you.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#30
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
(John 6:63)
every time Jesus speaks of fruit He is speaking spiritually.
even when you don't think He's talking to you.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
(John 6:63)
every time Jesus speaks of fruit He is speaking spiritually.
even when you don't think He's talking to you.
I thought we were talking about the Fruit of the Holy Spirit . God the Holy Spirit? Second person of the trinity?
37¶In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#31
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
(John 6:63)
every time Jesus speaks of fruit He is speaking spiritually.
even when you don't think He's talking to you.
I thought we were talking about the Fruit of the Holy Spirit . God the Holy Spirit? Second person of the trinity?
37¶In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#32
I thought we were talking about the Fruit of the Holy Spirit . God the Holy Spirit? Second person of the trinity?
37¶In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
why do you suppose it's called 'fruit'


I am the vine, you are the branches.
He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.

(John 15:5)
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#34
why do you suppose it's called 'fruit'
I am the vine, you are the branches.
He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5)
Oh , no need to send the Holy Spirit then, dum de dooo be dee ,!!! everything s the same , nothings different la la la la La!!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#35
Oh , no need to send the Holy Spirit then, dum de dooo be dee ,!!! everything s the same , nothings different la la la la La!!

And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him,
put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.

(Mark 15:20)
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#37
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

At the time of writing this Mark would have already seen / heard/ experienced these verses unfolding in the book of Acts . In the book of Acts each occasion its a sign to a Jew . Of course the ' drink any deadly thing ' may not have been witnessed because they would not have been hurt so who would know to record it ? Paul is bitten by a snake and is unharmed. Its a sign to Paul ,not Gentiles as they assume he must either be a murderer then a god the next minute . So it was hardly a sign to them.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#38
It is written in Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This is what was written concerning the signs that follow them that believe. Yet in Matthew 7:21 it is written:

Matt 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You will be able to see for yourself, that the signs that follow them that believe, is also the things that people who did not make heaven claimed they did.


How can this be explained?

It is obvious first of all that the people claiming to do those things, signs that prove belief,

1. knew they were talking to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
2. really believed that they did those things, and believed in HIM.


Can anyone explain this?

Jesus His Pre-Eminence makes it clear here: But he that doeth the will of my father in heaven.

What is that?

Context is Important. Mark 16 is not the only place we see the message that Mark 16 provides, Matthew 28 to speaks of thew what is known as "the Great Commission ".


Jesus is providing a contrast between those who were sent and which signs did follow them from those who claimed signs as work of self-righteousness " Lord did we not do? ".

There are many people who fed the hungry clothe the naked, visit the sick, and even work with spiritual things and HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP with Jesus.


Jesus said you will do these things and they did them. Who was glorified was Christ? Acts chapter four verse thirty-three explain what Jesus meant when HE said in Acts 1:8 you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you. it was to be a witness.

What were they witnessing? The Resurrected Christ.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#39
No gentiles are getting saved through ' signs ' . They get saved through the gospel message and believing it .
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#40
For to know that Jesus is real I heared the sermon of a youthpreacher. The Holy Spirit opens my understanding from my guilt. I needed no sign ore wonder.
Those signs and wonder, we find today not in the genuine church, but in the Mission situation. What bothers me, is that today people teach that signs and wonder belongs to an Christian life. Signs and wonder were there and still are there to show that Jesus is real Gods son and God himself. As a xhild of God I dont need signs and wonder for to proove that I am His child. They are still there gor to gloryfie Him and bring people into his family, according His will

interesting post, yet, it is inaccurate. You assume they do not happen in the "genuine church, " but on the mission field? Are you a missionary? The God of the Bible will only do signs and wonders on a mission field? That is a pretty big presupposition you have there.

God loves those on the mission field more than the church who Jesus said He loved and the gates of hell will not overcome it.


YOu did not read Acts 1:8 or Acts 4:33 did you? If you did you will see why signs and wonders were done.

They were done to testify of Jesus the Resurrected Lord. YOu shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you will be my witnesses. Only Jesus who is alive and not dead can still heal today and do great and mighty things.

Buda can't
Mohammad can't
Dalli Lama can't
Joseph Smith can't
nirvana can't
pagan gods can't
Dagon can't Baal can't


But fishermen did Because they had been with Jesus.

The God I serve is the God on the mission field and at home. Jesus heals afar and near. NOTHING is impossible for HIM.

Those who are used by God to pray for healing, empowered by the Holy Spirit did not do them for proof that God is real, they did them because they know God is real and have faith to trust HIM to answer the prayer they are praying for.

James 5 tells us to pray and do so in faith. I have heard many people pray in doubt, please don't pray for me that way.

"Lord if you can, and not too busy, please help to feel better before I die. Just save it for yourself.

BUt if you want someone to stand with you and agree in calling on the Lord to save heal and deliver Amen I'm there with ya.