Signs that follow them that believeth.

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Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,044
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#41
interesting post, yet, it is inaccurate. You assume they do not happen in the "genuine church, " but on the mission field? Are you a missionary? The God of the Bible will only do signs and wonders on a mission field? That is a pretty big presupposition you have there.

God loves those on the mission field more than the church who Jesus said He loved and the gates of hell will not overcome it.


YOu did not read Acts 1:8 or Acts 4:33 did you? If you did you will see why signs and wonders were done.

They were done to testify of Jesus the Resurrected Lord. YOu shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you will be my witnesses. Only Jesus who is alive and not dead can still heal today and do great and mighty things.

Buda can't
Mohammad can't
Dalli Lama can't
Joseph Smith can't
nirvana can't
pagan gods can't
Dagon can't Baal can't


But fishermen did Because they had been with Jesus.

The God I serve is the God on the mission field and at home. Jesus heals afar and near. NOTHING is impossible for HIM.

Those who are used by God to pray for healing, empowered by the Holy Spirit did not do them for proof that God is real, they did them because they know God is real and have faith to trust HIM to answer the prayer they are praying for.

James 5 tells us to pray and do so in faith. I have heard many people pray in doubt, please don't pray for me that way.

"Lord if you can, and not too busy, please help to feel better before I die. Just save it for yourself.

BUt if you want someone to stand with you and agree in calling on the Lord to save heal and deliver Amen I'm there with ya.
Well, this is your opinion. I was 20 years involved in missionministrie in India. Of course the Lord is doing wonder and healings today. And he cares also for his children, this including healings and not healings, persecution and no persecution.

But i simply dont believe such teachings I mentioned in my post already. You may disagree.
I see to much on fake and false teaching and false promisses and false expectations which are awaked in the believer.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#42
Well, this is your opinion. I was 20 years involved in missionministrie in India. Of course the Lord is doing wonder and healings today. And he cares also for his children, this including healings and not healings, persecution and no persecution.

But i simply dont believe such teachings I mentioned in my post already. You may disagree.
I see to much on fake and false teaching and false promisses and false expectations which are awaked in the believer.

No that is not an opinion that is the truth. Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Heb 13:8.

I too have been involved in Missionary work overseas. Japan, Thailand, and the Middle east.

If you want to put your faith in doubt in what you saw as fake and false please do so. I will choose the truth. God doesn't want us to not know what is false, but to see what is false then come to the understanding that God only does things overseas IS NOT IN THE WORD OF GOD .. That was your opinion. IF your experience contradicts the word of God, your experience is not Biblical.

I will not do that. I will place my faith and confidence in the word of God. And I have seen God heals and save people all over the world.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,044
416
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#43
No that is not an opinion that is the truth. Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Heb 13:8.

I too have been involved in Missionary work overseas. Japan, Thailand, and the Middle east.

If you want to put your faith in doubt in what you saw as fake and false please do so. I will choose the truth. God doesn't want us to not know what is false, but to see what is false then come to the understanding that God only does things overseas IS NOT IN THE WORD OF GOD .. That was your opinion. IF your experience contradicts the word of God, your experience is not Biblical.

I will not do that. I will place my faith and confidence in the word of God. And I have seen God heals and save people all over the world.
I did not say that the Lord is not healing and saving people today!
I said I dont believe such teachings I mentioned.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#44
I did not say that the Lord is not healing and saving people today!
I said I dont believe such teachings I mentioned.

why not? If you believe God heals and answers prayer you mean to tell me you do not teach new believers God heals and answer prayers today?
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,044
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#45
why not? If you believe God heals and answers prayer you mean to tell me you do not teach new believers God heals and answer prayers today?
I do not believe the pentecostal / carismatic teaching about the gift of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which we found till 1901 in the world.
In acts we find 4 events ( 2,8,10 and 19) where receiving the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. But this where mentioned with the special purpose to proof that the gospel is true Gods word and that it is for all mankind.
Nowwhere in the NT you find the teaching that speaking in tongues is the evidence that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
(But even this teaching is the basecof all pentecostal and charismatic doctrine)
Paul Shows clear in 1. Cor. 12 and 14 that speaking in tongues is one gift among many and not an evidence that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
As his child I know that God heals and answers prayers today.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#46
Would you agree that, for someone to preach that "signs and wonders" are still for today, it is equivalent to preaching that "the gospel of the kingdom is what we should be preaching today"?
What I see in the book of Acts is that the Apostles preached the gospel of Christ and worked to make disciples of Christ, and the signs followed them. There is no record anywhere in the book of Acts where "signs and wonders" were actually preached. The way Luke recorded the events was that the gospel was preached, and the Holy Spirit did the rest.

I find nowhere in any of Paul's writing that concentrated on the necessity of signs and wonders occurring in the Christian churches. In 1 Corinthians 12, he merely pointed out to the Corinthians that there were gifts of the Spirit for the building up of the body of Christ. But he said to the Corinthians that he determined not to know anything among them save Christ and Him crucified.

So it appears to me that it was the gospel that was preached, and the Holy Spirit worked with the gospel to show His power in the healing of the sick and the casting out of demons. Paul didn't have to preach signs and wonders because they were going to happen along with the preaching of the gospel.

These days, some groups preach signs and wonders, but they don't happen in spite of the preaching. I think that there are other reasons why the Holy Spirit no longer works in our modern churches in the same way He worked with the early church preachers of the gospel. It is because modern churches bear no resemblance to the early church in terms of commitment to Christ, sound doctrine and holiness of living. A church has to be of an appropriate standard before the Holy Spirit will work with it. As we can observe, it is hard to find a church that is of that standard, hence it is difficult to find anywhere where there is healing and deliverance accompanying the preaching of the gospel.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#47
The signs are to confirm the message . To Jews . Jews have always required/ been given signs to confirm the message. Simple .
As we see in the book of Acts, more miracles of healing and casting out of demons happened when Paul preached the gospel to the Gentile pagans. The signs the unconverted Jewish leaders were looking for in relation to the Messiah (context is everything!) were nothing like the "signs following" the preaching of the gospel. The signs that Jesus showed of His Messiahship were the healing of the sick, and casting out of demons. The Jewish leaders rejected those signs, even though they witnessed the actual miracles, because they were not the signs they were looking for. The sign the Jewish leaders were looking for was for their Messiah to be a conquering hero who will come and eject the Romans and restore their sovereignty as a nation under God.

All you have to do is to just read the Bible, and then you will be able to separate the facts from what is being peddled from the imagination of heretical Cessationist teachers.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#48
I do not believe the pentecostal / carismatic teaching about the gift of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which we found till 1901 in the world.
In acts we find 4 events ( 2,8,10 and 19) where receiving the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. But this where mentioned with the special purpose to proof that the gospel is true Gods word and that it is for all mankind.
Nowwhere in the NT you find the teaching that speaking in tongues is the evidence that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
(But even this teaching is the basecof all pentecostal and charismatic doctrine)
Paul Shows clear in 1. Cor. 12 and 14 that speaking in tongues is one gift among many and not an evidence that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
As his child I know that God heals and answers prayers today.
In actual fact, the incidence of speaking in tongues has occurred at different times right through Church history. Most of the groups that manifested the gift, along with other gifts of the Spirit were treated as heretical and brutally suppressed by the established church. Because their literature was destroyed, all we have are the court transcripts of the trials, which were compiled by the enemies of these groups, but if we read between the lines, we get enough information to see that they were not unlike many modern Charismatic groups. A good book to read is: "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" by Eddie L Hyatt.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,044
416
83
#49
As we see in the book of Acts, more miracles of healing and casting out of demons happened when Paul preached the gospel to the Gentile pagans. The signs the unconverted Jewish leaders were looking for in relation to the Messiah (context is everything!) were nothing like the "signs following" the preaching of the gospel. The signs that Jesus showed of His Messiahship were the healing of the sick, and casting out of demons. The Jewish leaders rejected those signs, even though they witnessed the actual miracles, because they were not the signs they were looking for. The sign the Jewish leaders were looking for was for their Messiah to be a conquering hero who will come and eject the Romans and restore their sovereignty as a nation under God.

All you have to do is to just read the Bible, and then you will be able to separate the facts from what is being peddled from the imagination of heretical Cessationist teachers.
This I do
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,672
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#50
I do not believe the pentecostal / carismatic teaching about the gift of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which we found till 1901 in the world.
In acts we find 4 events ( 2,8,10 and 19) where receiving the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. But this where mentioned with the special purpose to proof that the gospel is true Gods word and that it is for all mankind.
Nowwhere in the NT you find the teaching that speaking in tongues is the evidence that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
(But even this teaching is the basecof all pentecostal and charismatic doctrine)
Paul Shows clear in 1. Cor. 12 and 14 that speaking in tongues is one gift among many and not an evidence that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
As his child I know that God heals and answers prayers today.

Your bias against people is at the expense of the word of God. YOu speak as if you are one who knows all Pentecostal doctrine, and you don't. Put your bias in a bag and throw it out the window. Because the empowering of the Holy Spirit to the church did not happen in 1901 it was recorded in the word of God in the Book of Acts chapter 2.

And it is that event and empowering of the Holy Spirit where those who line themselves with what God did then and still does today called themselves Pentecostals. And that experience in the United States is further back than the 1900s if you know the history of Moves of God.

Nowhere in the word of God do we see the term Trinity but it is very much Biblical. Your issue is with an error of those who abuse the gifts
Like that of a pastor which is one of the Gifts of Christ to the church. None more abused than that yet, we don't say they are not for today.

Asa Child and as a man today I know God still does what Acts speaks about.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,672
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#51
In actual fact, the incidence of speaking in tongues has occurred at different times right through Church history. Most of the groups that manifested the gift, along with other gifts of the Spirit were treated as heretical and brutally suppressed by the established church. Because their literature was destroyed, all we have are the court transcripts of the trials, which were compiled by the enemies of these groups, but if we read between the lines, we get enough information to see that they were not unlike many modern Charismatic groups. A good book to read is: "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" by Eddie L Hyatt.

that is partly correct.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
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#52
"His Pre-Eminence said, HE never knew them, begone, ye workers of iniquity? "

I share what I believe and also what is written. Christ comes sets foot on the earth He then gathers the Nations. Those are the ones that came out of the great tribulation. "“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. " Those He splits sheep and goats are the ones from the great tribulation. Where He will say if you did it unto the least of these my brethren you did it to me. You also are His brethren.

I don't know how many fully understand that name which is above every name. See that NAME Yeshua/Jesus ALWAYS works. The power is not in the one say/using it. The power is in the one it belongs to. Its FAITH as Peter and John said its faith in that name!

So try to remember when your talking today about OTHER believers other groups you are indeed talking about HIM! Those are HIS Kids saying you/I love JESUS does not give us any right to talk like some do. You disagree with some things they teach believe praise GOD. But they belong to a GOD! And He said it not me "‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ " What did Christ say to Paul? "“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” A Paul never did. If people saved or not touch hurt make fun of attack a believer in Jesus Christ we are in fact hurting touching making fun of attacking Him. We have no excuse no matter what they do.

Wll did He not say love your enemy? they are not our enemy. Did He not say forgive 70*7. Anyway.. signs and wonders follow them that believe. And did He not say if you had the faith of just a mustard seed you could move mtn. We pray in HIS name.. those signs wonders WILL follow ...you never think twice you don't look back..WHY? YOUR NOT DOING IT HE IS! So YOU need to know if HE will keep HIS word. This is where doubt comes in. Some look around some will say well its not His will.. NOT what the word even says. His will IS His word. And STOP puting GOD on some time table.

I remember age 15-16 in this bible study wanted prayer for this huge wort on my left palm. As he was praying I heard this "and lord the ones between his toes". Talk about shocked. A I NEVER EVER told anyone not even my mom. After he prayed I never once gave it another thought and in about a week everyone just went away. I had them ever since I could remember. See that bible study where the woman grand mother prayed 4 hours a day and would say if we say anything that is not written in that word of God dont believe us. See they just believed. You had a need.. man she new the verse yet went to it prayed it.. and every time God answered it.

What we do say think all comes into play here. So.. not what I say or anyone else. Not what I believe or anyone else. You read that word you ask HIM to open your eyes.. and what ever it is... don't try just do it.. blindly. Walk by faith. No matter what you see here or feel.. you stand on that word. No matter how bright the day or dark the night you stand on His word. Ask Him... I did once .. the only time it sounded yet not that He was mad. Well I was not happy and saying He didn't do this or that. Never expected Him to talk. Oh He did "WHEN have I ever failed you" then He shows me so many moments in my life that.. I NEVER ONCE knew it was Him. I will NEVER EVER say that again.. so know He loves you know He is for you know that WORD is HIS and is FOR YOU! But you can agree follow others or simple read and believe. Watch what He does when you walk simple by faith which..ooh PLEASE HIM!
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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#53
As we see in the book of Acts, more miracles of healing and casting out of demons happened when Paul preached the gospel to the Gentile pagans. The signs the unconverted Jewish leaders were looking for in relation to the Messiah (context is everything!) were nothing like the "signs following" the preaching of the gospel. The signs that Jesus showed of His Messiahship were the healing of the sick, and casting out of demons. The Jewish leaders rejected those signs, even though they witnessed the actual miracles, because they were not the signs they were looking for. The sign the Jewish leaders were looking for was for their Messiah to be a conquering hero who will come and eject the Romans and restore their sovereignty as a nation under God.

All you have to do is to just read the Bible, and then you will be able to separate the facts from what is being peddled from the imagination of heretical Cessationist teachers.
There is no need to bring in a ' ist ' into the discussion..Ok which verses are you referring to were we see the gentiles responding to Signs. And my point is more about Signs accompanying the Jews to preach to the Jews. Accompanied with the message , as The Jews always require a sign . Of course the responsibility being on the Jew to recognise them or not .
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#54
There is no need to bring in a ' ist ' into the discussion..Ok which verses are you referring to were we see the gentiles responding to Signs. And my point is more about Signs accompanying the Jews to preach to the Jews. Accompanied with the message , as The Jews always require a sign . Of course the responsibility being on the Jew to recognise them or not .
If that is what your mentors have taught you, then carry on believing it! No skin off my nose. I've said my bit. I'm just a guy who reads the Bible.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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#55
If that is what your mentors have taught you, then carry on believing it! No skin off my nose. I've said my bit. I'm just a guy who reads the Bible.
I'm a guy that works on building sites for a living . I have no mentors . Just a bible thank you. And your lack of scripture provided was noted .
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,672
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#56
If that is what your mentors have taught you, then carry on believing it! No skin off my nose. I've said my bit. I'm just a guy who reads the Bible.
we all read the Bible here LOL hahaha
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#57
What I see in the book of Acts is that the Apostles preached the gospel of Christ and worked to make disciples of Christ, and the signs followed them. There is no record anywhere in the book of Acts where "signs and wonders" were actually preached. The way Luke recorded the events was that the gospel was preached, and the Holy Spirit did the rest.

I find nowhere in any of Paul's writing that concentrated on the necessity of signs and wonders occurring in the Christian churches. In 1 Corinthians 12, he merely pointed out to the Corinthians that there were gifts of the Spirit for the building up of the body of Christ. But he said to the Corinthians that he determined not to know anything among them save Christ and Him crucified.

So it appears to me that it was the gospel that was preached, and the Holy Spirit worked with the gospel to show His power in the healing of the sick and the casting out of demons. Paul didn't have to preach signs and wonders because they were going to happen along with the preaching of the gospel.

These days, some groups preach signs and wonders, but they don't happen in spite of the preaching. I think that there are other reasons why the Holy Spirit no longer works in our modern churches in the same way He worked with the early church preachers of the gospel. It is because modern churches bear no resemblance to the early church in terms of commitment to Christ, sound doctrine and holiness of living. A church has to be of an appropriate standard before the Holy Spirit will work with it. As we can observe, it is hard to find a church that is of that standard, hence it is difficult to find anywhere where there is healing and deliverance accompanying the preaching of the gospel.
What I am saying is that "The gospel of the kingdom is always accompanied by signs and wonders", so anyone that says signs and wonders are for today is actually preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

I am not saying anyone should preach signs and wonders.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#58
Signs will follow a certain person and quite a few will be deceived by him .
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#59
we all read the Bible here LOL hahaha
Yep. that's right! Anyway, discounting healing and deliverance for today's churches by misquoting the Scripture about Jews seeking signs is an old, tired, worn-out chestnut that should be laid to rest and remain dead and buried.

Any intelligent person who reads the book of Acts will clearly see that Paul had constant miracles happen along with his ministry, and because the Jews rejected his ministry, he turned to the Gentiles and that is where most of his miracles happened. He founded the Corinthian and Ephesian churches after the miracles of healing, and casting out of demons from pagans brought multitudes of converts into these churches.

I don't use Scripture quotes as "proof" texts, because anyone can cherry pick random verses out of context to try and prove their point.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#60
Yep. that's right! Anyway, discounting healing and deliverance for today's churches by misquoting the Scripture about Jews seeking signs is an old, tired, worn-out chestnut that should be laid to rest and remain dead and buried.

Any intelligent person who reads the book of Acts will clearly see that Paul had constant miracles happen along with his ministry, and because the Jews rejected his ministry, he turned to the Gentiles and that is where most of his miracles happened. He founded the Corinthian and Ephesian churches after the miracles of healing, and casting out of demons from pagans brought multitudes of converts into these churches.

I don't use Scripture quotes as "proof" texts, because anyone can cherry pick random verses out of context to try and prove their point.
The Holy Spirit had signs and wonders followed Paul, because Jews always needed signs. The Jewish believers needed to be convinced that Paul's new gospel of the uncircumcision was legitimate.

If you recall Acts 15

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Without those signs and wonders, if you put yourself in the shoes of those Jewish believers, everything Paul said in Galatians 1 and 2, "Christ appeared to me, Christ gave me the gospel without the Law, to preach to the gentiles" were all one-sided claims.