Sin-Nature Problem

[Stunnedbygrace]

For the believer, sin comes from our flesh (sarks). The flesh of the believer is still in a process of change and progress to made into the image of God.

If John had meant in I John 1:8 that the believer still has the sin nature, that is what he would have said. He had the Greek vocabulary available to say that. He could have said - "if we say that we do not have a sin nature (or old man, or old nature)", but instead he wrote, "If we say that we have no sin . . ."

You can't just take the word "sin" and translate it as "sin nature".

Does all sin originate from the sin nature? Adam did not have a sin nature and he sinned. Lucipher did not have a "sin nature" and he sinned. So to ask a rhetorical question "Is it not true that sin must originate from the sin nature?" just muddies the waters of understanding.

Here is how I see it. When a person becomes converted, his old nature (sin nature) died with Christ, and a new nature (new man) is resurrected with Christ. This very "literally" is a new birth. The believer then does not have the old sin nature, but a new nature (new man). This is all at the deep level of the spirit where the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For he who has died has been freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, Romans 6:6-8


But the believer does still have the flesh: and Paul writes a lot about the ongoing battle of the believer between the flesh and the spirit. And yes, our flesh does still have leftover remnants of "sin" from when we were unbelievers: that is we still may have fears, pride, envy, selfishness, lust, etc. that we need to overcome. These were strongholds or tendencies that we may have developed when we were unbelievers and still had the old nature (sin nature).

This is an interesting thread. Can't say I understand everything being said, but its interesting.

Chester, I am addressing your first paragraph here. I don't think the flesh is being changed into the image of God. That is if by flesh you mean our selfish self, our self that seeks its own pleasures and comforts.

I think that is the part being crucified by the Spirit. I agree this happens through our mind and it being renewed. Scripture seems to connect the mind and the heart - as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. It's an odd concept, but there it is.

As far as if you mean our actual body, the temporary tent, it must also be destroyed because corruption cannot share with incorruption. But we know we will receive a new body just as we have received a new Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

Flesh and old nature are very, very different!

Our old man (sin nature, old nature) was what was crucified with Christ. (Romans 6:6-8, Galatians 2:20), but nowhere is this said of the flesh (Greek 'sarks'). In fact as Paul says in Galations 2:20 we now "live in the flesh".

The Greek word for flesh (sarks) is never confused by Paul to mean "old nature" or "old man".

Flesh has a double meaning according to Strongs. It's both the body, and our fallen human nature. What is crucified with Christ is I...the ego. Our own conceit. Is this the spirit of man? I'm not sure yet.

This our human nature is taken out of the way, placed into the greater way....the divine image within our Spirit, that we or our I, ego is in another nature....Spiritual. And we learn then to walk in Spirit, renewing our soul to His mind.

Made simpler to understand with the picture of darkness expelled by Light.

And it takes time to learn.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I understand you're thinking, and it is the understanding of the majority of the body of Christ. But the fact of the matter is the old man was crucified on the cross, the born again believer has no sin nature they have the nature of their Father which is in Christ.

Since believers can and do sin, it should be obvious to you that the sin nature ("the flesh", "the old man") was NOT eradicated at the time of the New Birth. Ideally, that would have been perfect. When Scripture says that the old man was crucified on the cross, it means that the POWER of the sin nature was destroyed at the cross. And that is why Paul said "Sin shall not have DOMINION (power) over you", if you are a child of God. Therefore your claim that the born again believer has no sin nature is (a) either wishful thinking or (b) a misunderstanding of what was accomplished at the New Birth.

Since the Holy Spirit is given to sinners as a gift when they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the Spirit quickens or brings to life your spirit and also comes to indwell your spirit. That enables you to resist sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. At the same time there is a conflict or battle within every believer, in which the flesh tries to take control and the Spirit resists that sinful tendency. And that is what Paul speaks about in Galatians 5:16,17:

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth [WARS] against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary [OPPOSED] the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now, if there was no "flesh" to war against the Spirit, would Paul have said this? Does it not then prove that you are totally mistaken, and should adjust your thinking according to Scripture?

 

[Joseppi]

Galatians 5:16-17: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

It is the soul that is caught between the spirit and the flesh.

The soul is the seat of the will.
If a soul walks by faith in Jesus it walks in the spirit.
If a soul walks by sight it walks in the flesh.

The word of God is able to divide asunder soul from spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This means that man is often unable to discern between soul and spirit and must rely on the written word of God to learn and discern the difference.

When a man walks in the spirit then he hears and understands the things of the Spirit.

Thus, if a man hasn’t walked in the spirit much he will not have much experience in the spirit and remains stunted in his faith and his maturity until he does gain knowledge and experience.

If a man be found to not have believed rightly he will also be found lacking in knowledge and understanding of spiritual things.

By not believing rightly I refer to believing falsehood, false doctrine.

A false doctrine places, as it were, a stone out of order in one’s mind, and if pride refuses correction by the written word of God and instead defends that incorrectly placed stone, then a stronghold of the mind develops. In that case, the man with the stronghold in his mind will stop continuing in the words of Jesus as he ought and will be stymied until he lets Jesus pull down the stronghold. A misplaced stone requires that all things above it be pulled down, the stone removed, and the understanding corrected by proper ordering of God.

To walk in the spirit one must deny himself, pick up his cross, and return to following the leading of the Holy Ghost.

When a man is in the flesh, all the things of his spirit are unavailable until that man returns to walking by faith.

Therefore, be very wary of any legalism, and the leaven of hypocrisy. For all who walk in the flesh in their religion are not walking in the spirit and succumb to all manner of evils that appear spiritual to the carnal mind.

It is easy to see why the need for knowledge and understanding of scripture. All who walk in doubt are unable to walk in the spirit.

 

[Noblemen]

It is the soul that is caught between the spirit and the flesh.

The soul is the seat of the will.
If a soul walks by faith in Jesus it walks in the spirit.
If a soul walks by sight it walks in the flesh.

The word of God is able to divide asunder soul from spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This means that man is often unable to discern between soul and spirit and must rely on the written word of God to learn and discern the difference.

When a man walks in the spirit then he hears and understands the things of the Spirit.

Thus, if a man hasn’t walked in the spirit much he will not have much experience in the spirit and remains stunted in his faith and his maturity until he does gain knowledge and experience.

If a man be found to not have believed rightly he will also be found lacking in knowledge and understanding of spiritual things.

By not believing rightly I refer to believing falsehood, false doctrine.

A false doctrine places, as it were, a stone out of order in one’s mind, and if pride refuses correction by the written word of God and instead defends that incorrectly placed stone, then a stronghold of the mind develops. In that case, the man with the stronghold in his mind will stop continuing in the words of Jesus as he ought and will be stymied until he lets Jesus pull down the stronghold. A misplaced stone requires that all things above it be pulled down, the stone removed, and the understanding corrected by proper ordering of God.

To walk in the spirit one must deny himself, pick up his cross, and return to following the leading of the Holy Ghost.

When a man is in the flesh, all the things of his spirit are unavailable until that man returns to walking by faith.

Therefore, be very wary of any legalism, and the leaven of hypocrisy. For all who walk in the flesh in their religion are not walking in the spirit and succumb to all manner of evils that appear spiritual to the carnal mind.

It is easy to see why the need for knowledge and understanding of scripture. All who walk in doubt are unable to walk in the spirit.

Good post and for the most part I agree, If I'm reading you right you are saying we can not know the difference between soul and spirit, or we struggle to understand.
If that is so I disagree with that based on clear written word.
Rightly dividing; knowing the scripture scriptures that are written to you as a message or gospel. All the word is for us, just not all to us as a particular message.

 

[jaybird88]

They did not even know they had a sin nature, they knew they sinned but did not know they had a sin nature compelling them.

they didnt know because the doctrine would not be invented until 400 years after Jesus ascended.