sinless perfectionism

[prodigal]

That link wouldn't open for me!

The False Doctrine of Perfectionism

1 John 1:8-10

Introductory Thoughts

· The problem of balance in this doctrinal area
· Extreme Views
Ø First Extreme View: No holiness, or, “Holiness, what is that?” Many in the churches believe that a consistent Christian lifestyle is optional. They believe in conduct-neutralChristianity.
Ø Second extreme view—Perfection (much rarer today)
· The True Doctrine—God is Light è 1 John 1:5
· The First False Doctrine we looked at—Antinomianism è1:6-7. Antinomianism is against all law, is against any ethical requirement for the Christian. It teaches that the evidence of a person’s life is irrelevant.
· The True Alternative Doctrine—1:7
· Now we deal with the false doctrine of perfectionism.

1. First Form of Perfectionism—claiming to have no tendency to sin è John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

a. The Language

(1) In the Greek, this is what is called a Subjunctive sentence, a third class condition—it is an “if, then” statement.

(2) “If we up and say…”, this is the Greek aorist tense—if we have up and said at any time...

(3) “that we do not have sin” (present tense).

(4) What he is saying is: “If we up and say that we live continually in such a way that we have no principle of sin in us....”

(5) Then...We are leading ourselves astray, and The Truth is not in us

b. Extreme views in this area historically

(1) Gnostics—the first cult

(a)Some denied that believers had any principle if sin, therefore, no matter what they did, it could not be considered sin—they actually used this kind of perfectionism as an excuse to sin!
(b) Others taught that a spiritual believer had no sin in their life, so they could live to perfection



(2) Other perfectionists since then have taught that by an act of sanctifying grace, the tendency to sin can be taken away from us in this life.

(3) In contrast to the perfectionist view is the The Carnal Christian Theory, which says that one can live totally in sin, fully surrendered to it, and still be considered a Christian

(4) All of these views are heresy—they are out of balance.

c. The balanced Biblical view is: when we become Christians......

(1) We receive a new nature—2 Cor 5:17
(2) The born again Christian will not practice sin as a style of life.

1 John 2:29 "If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."
1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

(3) The old man can be reckoned as dead, Sin no longer has the power to dominate us—Rom 6:1-15. Therefore, we should be growing in grace—2 Pet 3:18, progressing in holiness.

(4) This progression in holiness is not optional, it is the normal Christian life. To say that a progression in holiness is OPTIONAL is to state a heresy.

(5) Having said that, because we are still in flesh, we still must struggle against sin, even as we grow in Grace and holiness.

(a)By flesh, we don’t mean the body only, but the mind and soul, our total humanness.
(b) Systematic theologians like to draw very distinct lines on this question, but the Bible does not tell us where our humanity begins and ends and where the new man is.
(c) Our mind and body together remember the pleasures and ways of sin, and this must be put to death daily.
(d) As long as we live with our humanness (which is as long as we are alive) we are in danger of sinning, and must constantly be on our guard to fight against it, and fight against it we must and will

d. But to say that we have no sin, that we are beyond sin, is a heresy

è If a person believes in this kind of perfectionism, this is self deception èThis amounts to NO TRUTH

* (skip verse 9 monentarily, we will come back to it)



2. The Second form of perfectionism—claiming to be sinless in practice è 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

a. Language

(1) “If”—again, a third class condition sentence
(2) We say—aorist—if we at any time have said
(3) We have not sinned—perfect tense—have not sinned throughout the past.
(4) “...we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us....” This is all in the present tense—if we say that we have not been sinners in practice, we are continually making Him a liar and His word is continually not in us.

b. Perfectionists say that a second work of Grace can “fully sanctify” a person so that they are totally above sin, and they will claim that they live above sin. This is a false doctrine.

(1) Sinless perfection is our goal—but we will never reach that level of holiness in this life
(2) To claim perfection in our lives makes God a liar! Rom 3:9-12, 23, Eph 2:1-3

3. The Remedy for both heresies in chapter 1—the balanced Christian life—1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

a. Language—

(1) Again, a subjunctive sentence, conditional

(2) “...If we confess...” is present tense—if we go on confessing...

(a) The word for confess, ¿ìïëïã§ìåí , means to agree totally with, and to identify with.
(b) When we truly confess, we are saying something about us, and we are saying something about Him.
(c)Rom 10:9-10—when we confess Christ, we confess His Lordship
(d) When we confess that He is our Savior, we are confessing that we need a Savior, that we are sinners.
(e) And this is in the present tense! Our confession is perpetual and constant—we always say to our Father, “God be merciful to me a sinner.”

(3) So, the remedy for the first type of perfectionism-- perpetual repentance. If we are continually confessing to Him, we will not get the idea that we are perfect!





b. “...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...”

(1) Language—“...is...” è present tense—continual. Jesus is always faithful and always just.
(2) If we confess Him and His Lordship in our lives èHe is faithful and just to forgive us...What does that mean?

(a) He is faithful

(b) He is just—because the price of redemption has been paid, and because of the propitiation through faith in His blood, God is just and righteous to forgive us—See Romans 3:25-31

(c)To forgive—aorist—we confess continually, the the forgiveness of sins is something that takes place once. When He is our Father, the forgiveness of sins has happened, and God will no longer impute sin to our account—Rom 4:6-8. The sins that a believer commits are sins, but the legal status of the believer is that sins are now a family matter between Father and Son—you can lose fellowship, but never relationship.

(d) “...And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...”—“...cleanse...” is aorist, so this is again talking about the great transaction that occured at our salvation.

(e) So, here is a strange thing:

(i) Our confession is continual
(ii) Our forgiveness from sin is granted once.
(iii) But back in 1:7, the cleansing was continual—the point is that we are cleansed once from the guilt of sin, then we are cleansed continually from the pollution of sin in our lives, and one day we will be cleansed from the very presence of sin.

theres lots on the internet heres another 2

What does the Bible say about perfectionism?

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog

as i mentioned i did a study a while back on wesleys sermons, which is the first modern trace i could find of this heresy

 

[Yonah]

seems this false teaching (like so many others) appeals to mans pride and self sufficiency, our Savior teaches us the opposite humility born of ones correct estimation of himself when relating to others is true humility and seeking to find occasion to rise above others in spiritual pride is satanic in origin and nature, our Savior teaches us humility and love for the brethren, not some holier then thou attitude that breaks a bruised reed and quenches a smoking flask, we are called to serve and serve we will, it is better to serve Him then oneself, it is better to speak life then to go about doing the enemies work, ( discouraging others who are struggling) when what they need is prayer and a loving hand to reach out to them, we will all miss the mark (sin) however we should as we grow in His grace, sin less not be sinless, please read the letters of John, he taught on this very subject (correctly I might add) pride in the eyes of the Father is one of the things He hates, yes hates, (*prov. 6:16-19) so please reconsider this position if you hold to it, read our Saviors words again, come back to your first love.... shalom.

 

[slave]

lol if anyone watched the vid they'd see the 2 people were actually the same person, many perfectionist do actually believe they never sin, that they are incapable of sinning. now this goes against what most people believe the scripture to say. the very few sinless that come into chat read scripture differently because there base assumptions are different, i.e where paul says he is the chief of sinners, that will always be delegated to the past , whereas others see his condition as so close to god that his sin was so apparent to him, see 2 totally different messages. when paul says why do i do the things i know i ought not to do, to some it shows paul still was alive and therefore had his flesh to deal with crucifying it daily but to others this was all in the past and paul floats along completely sinless now. we got where paul rebukes peter, peter was in sin but we never hear he was ever unsaved. it is called a heretical teaching and has been for some time for good reason. the earliest i can find on it is the early misquoted teaching of wesley and after studying his sermons you can see he never said sinless perfection was possible but it was possible excluding sins of omission and unrevealed sin.. maybe a good question would be to ask if they're perfect in humility too cos the 2 ideas seem to conflict, if a humble person went round telling everyone how humble they were, well i think most would question it wondering wouldn't the most humble person be the last person to see it cos promoting their own strengths you'd think would be the last thing on their mind..

Paul was not saying in the reference you used the message you suggest. It didn't say "He was the chief" right? That we could all understand because he was in his former life a persecutor of the Saints. It says, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." So now this is where spiritual guidance helps. Those coming from human reasoning may struggle with this. If we compare simply his past with the statement made we get lost. But let the spirit guide: Did Paul forget his own words in Gal. 2:20? or 2 Cor. 5:17? But again why does he, then, call himself the "chief of sinners?" Faith has me seek the answer....Well, it is not a coy statement meaning, "I am not all that good, really." Paul is very meaningful here.

And based on the scriptures I mentioned earlier he is not thinking that he is not in Christ either, [because in him he was made righteous and delivered, the power of sin was broken], but alas, wisdom: he was thinking of himself, as you should see yourself: made whole in Christ and yet with the flesh still active in your life. you see we still struggle against it. But now, it is no longer us, but an alien invader still able to exercise it's deceiving power amidst us.

Human reasoning run amuck is not Gods discernment. We all, including me, need to be in the Spirit of discernment found in the Holy Spirits guise.

 

[prodigal]

Paul was not saying in the reference you used the message you suggest. It didn't say "He was the chief" right? That we could all understand because he was in his former life a persecutor of the Saints. It says, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." So now this is where spiritual guidance helps. Those coming from human reasoning may struggle with this. If we compare simply his past with the statement made we get lost. But let the spirit guide: Did Paul forget his own words in Gal. 2:20? or 2 Cor. 5:17? But again why does he, then, call himself the "chief of sinners?" Faith has me seek the answer....Well, it is not a coy statement meaning, "I am not all that good, really." Paul is very meaningful here.

And based on the scriptures I mentioned earlier he is not thinking that he is not in Christ either, [because in him he was made righteous and delivered, the power of sin was broken], but alas, wisdom: he was thinking of himself, as you should see yourself: made whole in Christ and yet with the flesh still active in your life. you see we still struggle against it. But now, it is no longer us, but an alien invader still able to exercise it's deceiving power amidst us.

Human reasoning run amuck is not Gods discernment. We all, including me, need to be in the Spirit of discernment found in the Holy Spirits guise.

so was paul lying how could he have been the chief of sinners the way you see it, and how you put it again i have to add the arrogant bit, 'So now this is where spiritual guidance helps. lol,it just rolls lol..... so wasn't herod a worse sinner than paul what about judas,

and if i quote.'But let the spirit guide,' if thats spirit is guiding me to promote the sinless perfection heresy i think i'll stick to the spirit thats guiding me already cheers all the same..

and heres the verse for those that like bible verses, 1 Timothy 1:15King James Version (KJV)

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(cant see where it says ,'It didn't say "He was the chief" right? That we could all understand because he was in his former life a persecutor of the Saints.')

notice he says i am not i was yes forgiven but still aware of the depth of his sin and which causes a daily carrying of his cross as he comes into the presence of god,

 

[Gr8grace]

The False Doctrine of Perfectionism

1 John 1:8-10

Introductory Thoughts

· The problem of balance in this doctrinal area
· Extreme Views
Ø First Extreme View: No holiness, or, “Holiness, what is that?” Many in the churches believe that a consistent Christian lifestyle is optional. They believe in conduct-neutralChristianity.
Ø Second extreme view—Perfection (much rarer today)
· The True Doctrine—God is Light è 1 John 1:5
· The First False Doctrine we looked at—Antinomianism è1:6-7. Antinomianism is against all law, is against any ethical requirement for the Christian. It teaches that the evidence of a person’s life is irrelevant.
· The True Alternative Doctrine—1:7
· Now we deal with the false doctrine of perfectionism.

1. First Form of Perfectionism—claiming to have no tendency to sin è John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

a. The Language

(1) In the Greek, this is what is called a Subjunctive sentence, a third class condition—it is an “if, then” statement.

(2) “If we up and say…”, this is the Greek aorist tense—if we have up and said at any time...

(3) “that we do not have sin” (present tense).

(4) What he is saying is: “If we up and say that we live continually in such a way that we have no principle of sin in us....”

(5) Then...We are leading ourselves astray, and The Truth is not in us

b. Extreme views in this area historically

(1) Gnostics—the first cult

(a)Some denied that believers had any principle if sin, therefore, no matter what they did, it could not be considered sin—they actually used this kind of perfectionism as an excuse to sin!
(b) Others taught that a spiritual believer had no sin in their life, so they could live to perfection



(2) Other perfectionists since then have taught that by an act of sanctifying grace, the tendency to sin can be taken away from us in this life.

(3) In contrast to the perfectionist view is the The Carnal Christian Theory, which says that one can live totally in sin, fully surrendered to it, and still be considered a Christian

(4) All of these views are heresy—they are out of balance.

c. The balanced Biblical view is: when we become Christians......

(1) We receive a new nature—2 Cor 5:17
(2) The born again Christian will not practice sin as a style of life.

1 John 2:29 "If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."
1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

(3) The old man can be reckoned as dead, Sin no longer has the power to dominate us—Rom 6:1-15. Therefore, we should be growing in grace—2 Pet 3:18, progressing in holiness.

(4) This progression in holiness is not optional, it is the normal Christian life. To say that a progression in holiness is OPTIONAL is to state a heresy.

(5) Having said that, because we are still in flesh, we still must struggle against sin, even as we grow in Grace and holiness.

(a)By flesh, we don’t mean the body only, but the mind and soul, our total humanness.
(b) Systematic theologians like to draw very distinct lines on this question, but the Bible does not tell us where our humanity begins and ends and where the new man is.
(c) Our mind and body together remember the pleasures and ways of sin, and this must be put to death daily.
(d) As long as we live with our humanness (which is as long as we are alive) we are in danger of sinning, and must constantly be on our guard to fight against it, and fight against it we must and will

d. But to say that we have no sin, that we are beyond sin, is a heresy

è If a person believes in this kind of perfectionism, this is self deception èThis amounts to NO TRUTH

* (skip verse 9 monentarily, we will come back to it)



2. The Second form of perfectionism—claiming to be sinless in practice è 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

a. Language

(1) “If”—again, a third class condition sentence
(2) We say—aorist—if we at any time have said
(3) We have not sinned—perfect tense—have not sinned throughout the past.
(4) “...we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us....” This is all in the present tense—if we say that we have not been sinners in practice, we are continually making Him a liar and His word is continually not in us.

b. Perfectionists say that a second work of Grace can “fully sanctify” a person so that they are totally above sin, and they will claim that they live above sin. This is a false doctrine.

(1) Sinless perfection is our goal—but we will never reach that level of holiness in this life
(2) To claim perfection in our lives makes God a liar! Rom 3:9-12, 23, Eph 2:1-3

3. The Remedy for both heresies in chapter 1—the balanced Christian life—1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

a. Language—

(1) Again, a subjunctive sentence, conditional

(2) “...If we confess...” is present tense—if we go on confessing...

(a) The word for confess, ¿ìïëïã§ìåí , means to agree totally with, and to identify with.
(b) When we truly confess, we are saying something about us, and we are saying something about Him.
(c)Rom 10:9-10—when we confess Christ, we confess His Lordship
(d) When we confess that He is our Savior, we are confessing that we need a Savior, that we are sinners.
(e) And this is in the present tense! Our confession is perpetual and constant—we always say to our Father, “God be merciful to me a sinner.”

(3) So, the remedy for the first type of perfectionism-- perpetual repentance. If we are continually confessing to Him, we will not get the idea that we are perfect!





b. “...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...”

(1) Language—“...is...” è present tense—continual. Jesus is always faithful and always just.
(2) If we confess Him and His Lordship in our lives èHe is faithful and just to forgive us...What does that mean?

(a) He is faithful

(b) He is just—because the price of redemption has been paid, and because of the propitiation through faith in His blood, God is just and righteous to forgive us—See Romans 3:25-31

(c)To forgive—aorist—we confess continually, the the forgiveness of sins is something that takes place once. When He is our Father, the forgiveness of sins has happened, and God will no longer impute sin to our account—Rom 4:6-8. The sins that a believer commits are sins, but the legal status of the believer is that sins are now a family matter between Father and Son—you can lose fellowship, but never relationship.

(d) “...And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...”—“...cleanse...” is aorist, so this is again talking about the great transaction that occured at our salvation.

(e) So, here is a strange thing:

(i) Our confession is continual
(ii) Our forgiveness from sin is granted once.
(iii) But back in 1:7, the cleansing was continual—the point is that we are cleansed once from the guilt of sin, then we are cleansed continually from the pollution of sin in our lives, and one day we will be cleansed from the very presence of sin.

theres lots on the internet heres another 2

What does the Bible say about perfectionism?

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog

as i mentioned i did a study a while back on wesleys sermons, which is the first trace i could find of this heresy

IMO, religion has worked so well that the true believers who study are afraid to look at scriptures in truth.

If we believe(the biblical belief/epignosis belief) we are saved. If the drunk has a moment of true clarity, and believes In the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation...................He is saved. No matter what. If he goes back into oblivion with drink or if he cleans up his life.......He is SAVED.

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

This is our position in Christ and operating in the Spirit. We cannot and will not sin in our position in Christ when we are operating in the Spirit. Many believers do not operate in the filling of the Spirit and do not walk in the Spirit. They operate in their condition(sin nature/flesh) and continue to sin.( a study in itself.....most christians don't operate in sin after salvation, they operate in their own good(evil)..)

It is our choice to operate in the Spirit or our flesh. John is saying that believers who are operating in the divine protocol of the Christian way of life will not live in a lifestyle of sin. Those believers that don't follow this protocol......will live in a lifestyle of sin and evil.(Most likely evil(human good) because sin is WELL KNOWN to believers.)

It doesn't "unsave" them. Or it doesn't mean they are not saved. It may look like it to us, but God knows the heart decision that a person makes for salvation.

 

[prodigal]

IMO, religion has worked so well that the true believers who study are afraid to look at scriptures in truth.

If we believe(the biblical belief/epignosis belief) we are saved. If the drunk has a moment of true clarity, and believes In the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation...................He is saved. No matter what. If he goes back into oblivion with drink or if he cleans up his life.......He is SAVED.

1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

This is our position in Christ and operating in the Spirit. We cannot and will not sin in our position in Christ when we are operating in the Spirit. Many believers do not operate in the filling of the Spirit and do not walk in the Spirit. They operate in their condition(sin nature/flesh) and continue to sin.( a study in itself.....most christians don't operate in sin after salvation, they operate in their own good(evil)..)

It is our choice to operate in the Spirit or our flesh. John is saying that believers who are operating in the divine protocol of the Christian way of life will not live in a lifestyle of sin. Those believers that don't follow this protocol......will live in a lifestyle of sin and evil.(Most likely evil(human good) because sin is WELL KNOWN to believers.)

It doesn't "unsave" them. Or it doesn't mean they are not saved. It may look like it to us, but God knows the heart decision that a person makes for salvation.

i agree

we no longer have a sinful nature as christians but taking that to mean we never sin, when we were lost we were'nt as aware of our sin though we may have been aware of some but now we know the truth we are fully made aware when we sin.. and god will lead us through conviction to repentance. leading to the renewing of the mind... i also agree that we wont know unless god makes it known wether someone is backsliding or was never a christian. i would say that it is partly our choice at times wether we operate in the spirit. but also that god can be the cause of action in his people, at his will if he desires . i.e. pauls road to damascus, peter receiving pauls rebuke, we are changed in verying degrees by the holy spirit, peter went from denying christ to leading 3000 to the faith in 40 days, and it was more than his will, and he never did night classes.. blessings

 

[Angela53510]

The False Doctrine of Perfectionism

1 John 1:8-10

Introductory Thoughts

· The problem of balance in this doctrinal area
· Extreme Views
Ø First Extreme View: No holiness, or, “Holiness, what is that?” Many in the churches believe that a consistent Christian lifestyle is optional. They believe in conduct-neutralChristianity.
Ø Second extreme view—Perfection (much rarer today)
· The True Doctrine—God is Light è 1 John 1:5
· The First False Doctrine we looked at—Antinomianism è1:6-7. Antinomianism is against all law, is against any ethical requirement for the Christian. It teaches that the evidence of a person’s life is irrelevant.
· The True Alternative Doctrine—1:7
· Now we deal with the false doctrine of perfectionism.

1. First Form of Perfectionism—claiming to have no tendency to sin è John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

a. The Language

(1) In the Greek, this is what is called a Subjunctive sentence, a third class condition—it is an “if, then” statement.

(2) “If we up and say…”, this is the Greek aorist tense—if we have up and said at any time...

(3) “that we do not have sin” (present tense).

(4) What he is saying is: “If we up and say that we live continually in such a way that we have no principle of sin in us....”

(5) Then...We are leading ourselves astray, and The Truth is not in us

b. Extreme views in this area historically

(1) Gnostics—the first cult

(a)Some denied that believers had any principle if sin, therefore, no matter what they did, it could not be considered sin—they actually used this kind of perfectionism as an excuse to sin!
(b) Others taught that a spiritual believer had no sin in their life, so they could live to perfection



(2) Other perfectionists since then have taught that by an act of sanctifying grace, the tendency to sin can be taken away from us in this life.

(3) In contrast to the perfectionist view is the The Carnal Christian Theory, which says that one can live totally in sin, fully surrendered to it, and still be considered a Christian

(4) All of these views are heresy—they are out of balance.

c. The balanced Biblical view is: when we become Christians......

(1) We receive a new nature—2 Cor 5:17
(2) The born again Christian will not practice sin as a style of life.

1 John 2:29 "If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."
1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

(3) The old man can be reckoned as dead, Sin no longer has the power to dominate us—Rom 6:1-15. Therefore, we should be growing in grace—2 Pet 3:18, progressing in holiness.

(4) This progression in holiness is not optional, it is the normal Christian life. To say that a progression in holiness is OPTIONAL is to state a heresy.

(5) Having said that, because we are still in flesh, we still must struggle against sin, even as we grow in Grace and holiness.

(a)By flesh, we don’t mean the body only, but the mind and soul, our total humanness.
(b) Systematic theologians like to draw very distinct lines on this question, but the Bible does not tell us where our humanity begins and ends and where the new man is.
(c) Our mind and body together remember the pleasures and ways of sin, and this must be put to death daily.
(d) As long as we live with our humanness (which is as long as we are alive) we are in danger of sinning, and must constantly be on our guard to fight against it, and fight against it we must and will

d. But to say that we have no sin, that we are beyond sin, is a heresy

è If a person believes in this kind of perfectionism, this is self deception èThis amounts to NO TRUTH

* (skip verse 9 monentarily, we will come back to it)



2. The Second form of perfectionism—claiming to be sinless in practice è 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

a. Language

(1) “If”—again, a third class condition sentence
(2) We say—aorist—if we at any time have said
(3) We have not sinned—perfect tense—have not sinned throughout the past.
(4) “...we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us....” This is all in the present tense—if we say that we have not been sinners in practice, we are continually making Him a liar and His word is continually not in us.

b. Perfectionists say that a second work of Grace can “fully sanctify” a person so that they are totally above sin, and they will claim that they live above sin. This is a false doctrine.

(1) Sinless perfection is our goal—but we will never reach that level of holiness in this life
(2) To claim perfection in our lives makes God a liar! Rom 3:9-12, 23, Eph 2:1-3

3. The Remedy for both heresies in chapter 1—the balanced Christian life—1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

a. Language—

(1) Again, a subjunctive sentence, conditional

(2) “...If we confess...” is present tense—if we go on confessing...

(a) The word for confess, ¿ìïëïã§ìåí , means to agree totally with, and to identify with.
(b) When we truly confess, we are saying something about us, and we are saying something about Him.
(c)Rom 10:9-10—when we confess Christ, we confess His Lordship
(d) When we confess that He is our Savior, we are confessing that we need a Savior, that we are sinners.
(e) And this is in the present tense! Our confession is perpetual and constant—we always say to our Father, “God be merciful to me a sinner.”

(3) So, the remedy for the first type of perfectionism-- perpetual repentance. If we are continually confessing to Him, we will not get the idea that we are perfect!





b. “...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...”

(1) Language—“...is...” è present tense—continual. Jesus is always faithful and always just.
(2) If we confess Him and His Lordship in our lives èHe is faithful and just to forgive us...What does that mean?

(a) He is faithful

(b) He is just—because the price of redemption has been paid, and because of the propitiation through faith in His blood, God is just and righteous to forgive us—See Romans 3:25-31

(c)To forgive—aorist—we confess continually, the the forgiveness of sins is something that takes place once. When He is our Father, the forgiveness of sins has happened, and God will no longer impute sin to our account—Rom 4:6-8. The sins that a believer commits are sins, but the legal status of the believer is that sins are now a family matter between Father and Son—you can lose fellowship, but never relationship.

(d) “...And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...”—“...cleanse...” is aorist, so this is again talking about the great transaction that occured at our salvation.

(e) So, here is a strange thing:

(i) Our confession is continual
(ii) Our forgiveness from sin is granted once.
(iii) But back in 1:7, the cleansing was continual—the point is that we are cleansed once from the guilt of sin, then we are cleansed continually from the pollution of sin in our lives, and one day we will be cleansed from the very presence of sin.

theres lots on the internet heres another 2

What does the Bible say about perfectionism?

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog

as i mentioned i did a study a while back on wesleys sermons, which is the first modern trace i could find of this heresy

Thanks Prodigal. It finally did open. I just wondered about all the accent graves.

 

[DaTK]

If some claims to have no sin (I'm not talking about being justified but sin existing yet in the flesh until the glorified body), I like to ask them if they are married, "Would your spouse agree?" hehe

 

[Skinski7]

so was paul lying how could he have been the chief of sinners the way you see it, and how you put it again i have to add the arrogant bit, 'So now this is where spiritual guidance helps. lol,it just rolls lol..... so wasn't herod a worse sinner than paul what about judas,

and if i quote.'But let the spirit guide,' if thats spirit is guiding me to promote the sinless perfection heresy i think i'll stick to the spirit thats guiding me already cheers all the same..

and heres the verse for those that like bible verses, 1 Timothy 1:15King James Version (KJV)

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(cant see where it says ,'It didn't say "He was the chief" right? That we could all understand because he was in his former life a persecutor of the Saints.')

notice he says i am not i was yes forgiven but still aware of the depth of his sin and which causes a daily carrying of his cross as he comes into the presence of god,

People like you (and the authors of those articles) SNIP isolated passages of the Bible out of their context.

Paul as the "chief of sinners" is a reference to his FORMER LIFE of Christian persecution. Here read it for yourself...

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul is not claiming that he is engaged in ongoing wickedness. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners in the context of the crimes he had previously committed. Many a Christian, including me, would claim the exact same thing. Paul did not hide his sin, he had confessed it and forsook it.

 

[Budman]

Paul as the "chief of sinners" is a reference to his FORMER LIFE of Christian persecution.

Uh, I guess you missed the part where he said, "The chief of sinners I AM." (not, "I WAS")

The whole passage, in fact, is written in the present tense, after he became a believer.

 

[Hepzibah]

If some claims to have no sin (I'm not talking about being justified but sin existing yet in the flesh until the glorified body), I like to ask them if they are married, "Would your spouse agree?" hehe

Yes. During the time when the power of God was upon me enabling me to resist all temptation, and walk in the Spirit putting the flesh to death, someone on a forum challenged me with this so l got my spouse to reply, and he said yes l was without sin and he would be too but he was not willing to pay the price of entire submission to Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

wesley perfectionism except sin of omission and unknown sin, wesley is often mis-quoted by the sinless perfection brigade

If we are to not stop sinning, then Jesus woud basically be lying to the woman caught in the act of adultery when he told her to "sin no more."

 

[Skinski7]

I actually perused those articles on sinless perfection and they are trash. They are deceptive pieces which first setup a straw man and then tear down that straw man in order to promote the "legal/abstract" salvation doctrine of Reformed theology.

"Striking the balance" indeed. The balance between oppositions of science falsely so called? A balance between two presentations of error is still error. The article does this...

|<-----------------------------------------False Paradigm-------------------------------->|
Sinless Perfection Strawman<--------------Position of Article-------------------->Lawlessness



Lawlessness At One End Of Scale

First Extreme View: No holiness, or, “Holiness, what is that?” Many in the churches believe that a consistent Christian lifestyle is optional. They believe in conduct-neutral Christianity.

Sinless Perfection Strawman At Other End of Scale

Second extreme view—Perfection (much rarer today)

That is a classic example of OPPOSITIONS OF SCIENCE FALSELY SO CALLED and is exactly the kind of thing that Paul warned Timothy about. The entire framework is a manipulation, it is an attack upon the thinking process of the subject who reads it in an attempt to foster the acceptance of a false conclusion. The false conclusion being...

(i) Our confession is continual(ii) Our forgiveness from sin is granted once.
(iii) But back in 1:7, the cleansing was continual—the point is that we are cleansed once from the guilt of sin, then we are cleansed continually from the pollution of sin in our lives, and one day we will be cleansed from the very presence of sin.

In other words the whole article is promoting the premise that one can sin and not surely die because any guilt associated with ongoing wickedness has been LEGALLY cleansed once and for all. This premise is then offset against a perception of lawlessness due to the implication of SINNING LESS AND LESS.

1John 1:7-10 is simply John teaching that in order to be cleansed of our sins we have to come clean before God about our sin. It has nothing to do with the presence of ongoing wickedness within the heart of the believer. The heart of the believer has been purged of wickedness through repentance and faith whereby the heart is left in a pure state before God and God reckons the faith of the believer (ie. faithfulness = pure motive = love out of a pure heart = wholehearted yielding to God) as righteousness. There is NOTHING forensic or positional about it. Justification is directly connected to hearty purity and HEART PURITY is a subject articles like these OMIT COMPLETELY.


Jesus taught about heart purity and clearly stated that BLESSED BE THE PURE IN HEART FOR THEY SHALL SEE GOD. The deceptive theologians behind articles like this deny that, they instead teach that those whom "confess their wickedness and trust in Jesus shall enter the kingdom." They view the cross in a provisional context of providing a purely LEGAL pardon which has no connection whatsoever to an actual purging of evil from the heart.

Don't buy it.

The article is cunningly constructed via petitioning selected and isolated portions of the Bible which are completely ripped from their context.

 

[BradC]

So Jesus was basically lying to the woman caught in the act of adultery when he told her to "sin no more."

Jesus said to the woman, where are your accusers...neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. He gave her grace by not condemning her and that grace would provide her what was needed to go and sin no more. But you fail to see that with the faith you live by.

 

[Skinski7]

Uh, I guess you missed the part where he said, "The chief of sinners I AM." (not, "I WAS")

The whole passage, in fact, is written in the present tense, after he became a believer.

You so much want Christians (including Paul) to be wicked people.

The usage of present tense language is a grammatical device to give emphasis and it is common in both English and Greek.


Paul wrote...

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Th 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Paul compelled people to stop sinning, to walk in holiness and Paul claimed that he walked in holiness. Yet people like you, Budman, want to lay a charge of sin at Paul premised on a single verse which is ripped out of its context?

Paul was the chief of sinners in the context of...

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
...
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

That is the context. Is it that you want to paint Paul is a wicked man because you are wicked? Is it that you want a salvation message that denies inward purity? Is it that you want a salvation message where salvation is but a "cloaked state" where your ongoing evil is not counted against you? That is what it sounds like to me, I see no other reason why someone would attempt to promote Paul as a wicked man.

Jesus told people to "go and sin no more" and Jesus told people to "be perfect as God is perfect" in the context of inward righteousness (ie. heart purity). Yet, in your mind, such is impossible and thus you have to rely on some kind of cloak.

 

[Budman]

You so much want Christians (including Paul) to be wicked people.

Wow. Exaggerate much?

The usage of present tense language is a grammatical device to give emphasis and it is common in both English and Greek.

Oh, give me a break. The definition of being/doing something in the present tense is; the present. Here and now. What you are advocating is akin to asking the mother of a one year old child what she is doing now, and she says "giving birth."

Answer me this; Did Paul sin after he was converted, or not?

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus said to the woman, where are your accusers...neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. He gave her grace by not condemning her and that grace would provide her what was needed to go and sin no more. But you fail to see that with the faith you live by.

Again, you focus on the passages you prefer instead of actually dealing with the passage I brought up. But for the sake of argument, Jesus did not condemn the woman because obviously she was sorrowful over her sin. For God cannot condone a person's evil. They have to repent and turn from their sin. Jesus said to the woman to.... "sin no more." If by chance Jesus really did not mean that, then He would have been lying to her.

 

[Jason0047]

Wow. Exaggerate much?



Oh, give me a break. The definition of being/doing something in the present tense is; the present. Here and now. What you are advocating is akin to asking the mother of a one year old child what she is doing now, and she says "giving birth."

Answer me this; Did Paul sin after he was converted, or not?

Paul says he was a "persecutor" in the passage. Obviously Paul was not a persector of Christians while being a Christian.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

This verse proves you cannot be "in Christ" and also "in sin" at the same time.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Anyone who says they are still "in sin" but also claim to be "in Christ" at the same time is a liar.

 

[Jason0047]

This verse proves you cannot be "in Christ" and also "in sin" at the same time.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Anyone who says they are still "in sin" but also claim to be "in Christ" at the same time is a liar.

Agreed brother. And even more than that (As you know). 1 John 2:4 says,

"He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

For sin is transgression of the Law (or the Commandment) (1 John 3:4).