So what about the fourth commandment?

[gotime]

First of all, neither you nor anyone else can keep the law. Remember, anyone who is puts themselves under the law must keep the entire law. And when you break it in one place, you've broken the whole law. Therefore, if you are equating the keeping of the law with love for God, then you are failing. Jesus came in the flesh and did what mankind could not do, which is keep the law. Instead of trying to meet the righteous requirements of the law, we are to recognize Jesus as the One who fulfilled it perfectly and that on our behalf. If you are trying to keep the law, then you are not trusting in him as the one who fulfilled it. The power of sin is the law. It is also the ammunition that Satan used against those under the law and that because of our sinful nature. I have never in my Christian life have even thought of the law as attempting to keep it. I follow Christ and when when I sin, I confess it and according to scripture he forgives me and cleanses me of all unrighteousness. But because the spirit dwells in me, my desire is not to commit sin.

Jesus didn't come her to fulfill the law so that we could continue trying to keep something that we continue to fail at. He didn't come to perpetuate the law, but to fulfill and bring it to its end as completed. We are completely free in Christ. For those under the law, when they fail at it, it brings wrath.

"For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law--I stopped trying to meet all its requirements--so that I might live for God."

Thanx for your reply.

You said "neither you nor anyone else can keep the law"

So I read (neither you nor anyone else can love). Well on our own I would agree. But when Christ is in you I have no choice but to disagree.

I find your response very letter of the law, legalistic in other words. Now hear me out, I am not trying to say you are a legalist though you may well be one.

But your arguments are from a legalist perspective.

You said " If you are trying to keep the law". In answer to the "if" I say no I do not try to keep the law, Yet I keep it. How? I put my trust in Him and His love transforms me daily. Love is the fulfilling of the law. Not our love but His love through us. Thus I keep the law or rather Christ in me keeps it and it appears as if I am keeping it.

You said "my desire is not to commit sin"

So your desire is not to commit sin, which means you desire to keep the law because to not sin is to keep the law. The law of course being love, You desire to love which is good. We both know that only by the Spirit can that become reality. But we must not forget that the 10 commandments are a written expression of a loving relationship between God and man and man and man.

That is why love fulfils the law. The Jews missed the love part and thus were left with the letter which without love is nothing. with love is everything. which brings me back to your point.

You argue against those who speak of keeping the law as if they do so by the same manner in which Israel did of old. Thus you argue against a letter based legal position. In my case at least you have missed the boat, because while I do believe Gods true people keep the law, it is only because the Love of God is in them by Grace through faith. They are transformed new creatures. Keeping the law is a fruit of love. you can not love and not keep them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello gottime,

I find your response very letter of the law, legalistic in other words. Now hear me out, I am not trying to say you are a legalist though you may well be one.

Well that is a new one! I'm proclaiming to you that believers in Christ are not under the law and you call me a legalist? I had to laugh at that one. My point in all of these posts has been the same: Jesus fulfilled the law and brought it to its completion. The law is a done deal. He satisfied the law perfectly where mankind was/is unable to do so. Why don't you people understand this principle? I shouldn't be surprised I suppose, for the Paul through the Holy Spirit had the same problem and he was getting his information directly from the Lord.

So your desire is not to commit sin, which means you desire to keep the law because to not sin is to keep the law.

No! My desire to not commit sin is because the Spirit of God lives in me. The Jews where performing the works of the law mechanically without faith along side of it. They made it into a system of do this, don't do that. They were performing their sacrifices while not having any mercy or compassion.

So let me be clear: to be under the law is to perform your own works as a means to gain favor with God in regards to salvation. Examples of this would be those who keep the Sabbath, put themselves under the ten commandments, abstaining from certain foods that were deemed unclean under the law or any works that people perform as a requirement for salvation. Because in doing so, they are attempting to enter into the kingdom of God by those works. The person in Christ is not even concerned with the law, but follows Christ and is led by the Spirit. We are not under the law and therefore we have no law to break. And when we do sin, we confess it and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Shall we continue in sin that grace may about? God forbid! We use our freedom in Christ unto good works to glorify God. We are completely free from the law!

So please stop twisting my words and/or redefining what the law is.

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

So, in the scripture above, faith and the law are at odds with each other. The Gentiles obtained it by believing in Christ, whereas Israel was trying to obtain righteousness with God by the keeping the works of the law as a means of salvation.

Here's another example: Pharisees who had not let go of the law of Moses, made the claim that the Gentile believers in Christ must be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit's answer through Peter was as follows:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Whatever is contained in the law of Moses, we are not saved by performing those things. We are however saved by trusting in the One who kept the law perfectly on our behalf and who paid the penalty for our sins. By having this faith, God has also purified the hearts of all who trust in Christ.


I hope that this finally gets the point across regarding this issue.

Blessings!

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Hello gottime,

Blessings!

If the Israelites historically managed to keep the law mechanically and without any faith as you claim, how much more should a Spirit filled born again believer be able to obey the law ? Jesus wish is for us to be without wrinkle and spot regarding sin and sin is the transgression of the law in the NT (1 John 3:4).

 

[FreeNChrist]

If the Israelites historically managed to keep the law mechanically and without any faith as you claim, how much more should a Spirit filled born again believer be able to obey the law ? Jesus wish is for us to be without wrinkle and spot regarding sin and sin is the transgression of the law in the NT (1 John 3:4).

"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation." (Rom 4:15 )

 

[Wall]

"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation." (Rom 4:15 )

Romans 4:10-15 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Here we go again. So is Romans 4 talking bout circumcision or the 10 commandments

 

[FreeNChrist]

Romans 4:10-15 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Here we go again. So is Romans 4 talking bout circumcision or the 10 commandments

It's talking about the Law.

 

[garee]

Thanx for your reply.

You said "neither you nor anyone else can keep the law"

So I read (neither you nor anyone else can love). Well on our own I would agree. But when Christ is in you I have no choice but to disagree.

I find your response very letter of the law, legalistic in other words. Now hear me out, I am not trying to say you are a legalist though you may well be one.

But your arguments are from a legalist perspective.

You said " If you are trying to keep the law". In answer to the "if" I say no I do not try to keep the law, Yet I keep it. How? I put my trust in Him and His love transforms me daily. Love is the fulfilling of the law. Not our love but His love through us. Thus I keep the law or rather Christ in me keeps it and it appears as if I am keeping it.

You said "my desire is not to commit sin"

So your desire is not to commit sin, which means you desire to keep the law because to not sin is to keep the law. The law of course being love, You desire to love which is good. We both know that only by the Spirit can that become reality. But we must not forget that the 10 commandments are a written expression of a loving relationship between God and man and man and man.

That is why love fulfils the law. The Jews missed the love part and thus were left with the letter which without love is nothing. with love is everything. which brings me back to your point.

You argue against those who speak of keeping the law as if they do so by the same manner in which Israel did of old. Thus you argue against a letter based legal position. In my case at least you have missed the boat, because while I do believe Gods true people keep the law, it is only because the Love of God is in them by Grace through faith. They are transformed new creatures. Keeping the law is a fruit of love. you can not love and not keep them.

I would think it depends on how a person defines "keep". I understand it to mean to guard closely with all our heart soul and mind. No man can keep it without stumbling in the least, and if we stumble in the least, the healing of eternal separation must be performed by an eternal being.

Christ who is of mind always does what soever His soul pleases for it is Him who does perform that which is appointed to us. Called a imputed righteousness, no man will be found with a righteousness of their own

It is he alone who can make our hearts soft.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Dan_473]

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+13&version=nasb

what do lawkeepers think when they read 'fulfillment'?

if I were a lawkeeper, I would reason that what was fulfilled was the 'death' requirement of the law... so now we live in new life... but 'action' requirements of the law are still there...

comments?

 

[Wall]

So let me be clear: to be under the law is to perform your own works as a means to gain favor with God in regards to salvation. Examples of this would be those who keep the Sabbath, put themselves under the ten commandments, abstaining from certain foods that were deemed unclean under the law.....

Your clear. Now let the bible be clear

2 COR. 6 [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. [12] Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. [13] Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. [14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [15] AND WHAT CONCORD HATH CHRIST WITH BELIAL? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


So far all points of scripture in this passage seem to be giving us instructions as to how we can become sons and daughters to the Father. So what about verse 15. Jesus Christ vs belial.

DEUT. 13 [13] Certain men, THE CHILDREN OF BELIAL, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, SAYING, LET US GO AND SERVE OTHER GODS, which ye have not known; [14] Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; [15] Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. [16] And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. [17] And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that THE LORD MAY TURN FROM THE FIERCENESS OF HIS ANGER, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; [18] WHEN THOU SHALT HEARKEN TO THE VOICE OF THE LORD THY GOD, TO KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS WHICH I COMMAND THEE THIS DAY, TO DO THAT WHICH IS RIGHT IN THE EYES OF THE LORD THY GOD.

Hey look Ahwatukee. Seems that those of Belial didnt believe they were under the 10 commandments either. Just like you

 

[Wall]

2 COR. 6 [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, OUR HEART IS ENLARGED. [12] Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. [13] Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) BE YE ALSO ENLARGED. [14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Our heart is enlarged and be ye also enlarged. So what does this mean to enlarge your heart?

PSALM 119 [32] I WILL RUN THE WAY OF THY COMMANDMENTS, WHEN THOU SHALT ENLARGE MY HEART.[33] Teach me,LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.[34] Give me understanding,and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.[35] Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Well thats easily understood

ISAIAH 5 [13] Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.[14] Therefore HELL HATH ENLARGED HERSELF, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. [24] Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST AWAY THE LAW OF THE LORD of hosts, and despised the word of THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

Hell hath enlarged herself because they have cast away the law of the LORD. Despised the word of the HOLY ONE of Israel. We all should know who the HOLY ONE of Israel is?

 

[Wall]

So let me be clear: to be under the law is to perform your own works as a means to gain favor with God in regards to salvation. Examples of this would be those who keep the Sabbath, put themselves under the ten commandments, abstaining from certain foods that were deemed unclean under the law....

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This NEW TESTAMENT scripture tells us as believers we are not to touch the unclean thing.

ISAIAH 52 [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath REDEEMED Jerusalem. [10] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, GO YE OUT from thence, TOUCH NO UNCLEAN THING; GO YE OUT OF THE MIDST OF HER; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Redeemed. Salvation. Words you would find in the new testament concerning Jesus. And as is always the case, you will find whats being said in the new testament has already been said in the old or prophecied.

LEVITICUS 20 [22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. [23] And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. [24] But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, WHICH HAVE SEPARATED YOU from other people. [25] YE SHALL THEREFORE PUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLEAN BEASTS AND UNCLEAN, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. [26] And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE.

Be ye separate.

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, IT IS UNCLEAN unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Everywhere theres lots of piggies living piggy lives.......

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking of the “Day of the Lord”. Whats prophecied about that day will come to pass as written

Well Ahwatukee, do you believe those NEW COVENANT scriptures

 

[Wall]

Show me where we don't have the confidence to approach the throne of Grace any time and every time we choose

Proverbs 28:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Originally Posted by miknik5

Show me where we don't have the confidence to approach the throne of Grace any time and every time we choose

Proverbs 28:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

I wonder what God thought of the prayer these guys made:

Matthew 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 

[Grace777x70]

Proverbs 28:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

You better start killing those that work on the Sabbath then. Ex. 35:2 ( There are loads of examples where "law-keepers" water down the Law to make it "do-able" but are breaking it every day )

James says that if you break the Law in one area - you are guilty of it all.

We have a New Covenant now in Christ built upon better promises and Jesus blood speaks of better things. The Old Covenant including the Law is dead to the believer that is in Christ. Romans 7:6-7

Whosever calls upon the Name of Jesus shall be saved - nothing to do with the Law whether one even knows it is totally irrelevant in the New Covenant. Jesus writes Himself on our hearts and minds.

 

[Dan_473]

You better start killing those that work on the Sabbath then. Ex. 35:2 ( There are loads of examples where "law-keepers" water down the Law to make it "do-able" but are breaking it every day )

James says that if you break the Law in one area - you are guilty of it all.

We have a New Covenant now in Christ built upon better promises and Jesus blood speaks of better things. The Old Covenant including the Law is dead to the believer that is in Christ. Romans 7:6-7

Whosever calls upon the Name of Jesus shall be saved - nothing to do with the Law whether one even knows it is totally irrelevant in the New Covenant. Jesus writes Himself on our hearts and minds.

I'm interested in this idea of the law being indivisible... you have to keep it all or you break it all...

I can think of verses that say it's one unit... but none for doing it 'a la carte'.

Roots folks, is there a passage you feel gives you a pass on the things not doable today (like, show yourself to the priest)?

 

[JimmieD]

Deut 23:12 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine.23:13 You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.[SUP]


Bathrooms must be outside and must be dug with a spade and then covered with dirt.

Hey, it's the law.

[/SUP]

 

[KohenMatt]

Deut 23:12 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine.23:13 You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.[SUP]


Bathrooms must be outside and must be dug with a spade and then covered with dirt.

Hey, it's the law.

[/SUP]

Further proof that God cares about every aspect of our lives!

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Deut 23:12 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine.23:13 You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.[SUP]


Bathrooms must be outside and must be dug with a spade and then covered with dirt.

Hey, it's the law.

[/SUP]

I am so glad this is a commandment!

Deuteronomy 23:11

Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: 13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:3

14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

 

[KohenMatt]

A blessed Sabbath to everyone, whether you keep it or not!

 

[simplifiedtruth]

A blessed Sabbath to everyone, whether you keep it or not!

Shabbat Shalom!