Some advice re 'Born Again' please

hattiebod · Feb 12, 2013

Dear Friends,
I am quite a new member here and would like some advice please. When i became a Christian 12 years ago I just assumed that my journey was typical. I was isolated in a way, as I was convicted of the truth while living in China (another story

and I thought everyone who found the Lord was on fire!! On returning to the UK 4 years ago, I learnt there is no such thing as typical. And fires can be of very different strengths. I attended a talk last night on healing given by a lovley retired Scottish minister. He has served the church faithfully for 50+ years but freely admitted to us that he was not 'born in the spirit' until 10 years ago. In other words, he was a Christian, believed in God, preached & believed in the resurrection of Christ, in the inerrancy of the Bible....but had no idea of the freedom & power of the Holy Spirit. I accept this as his story but personaly found this difficult...added to this I have a friend who 'believes in God', has had a very traumatic past, declares her 'safety i Christ' yet questions wether she will ever get to heaven (cannot believe it) has
no real relationship with Christ at all (tells me, What? Christ? no, I speak to God....) and has no freedom, no joy in her life at all as a Christian. God seems to her all powerful but not knowable...I would like to understand this more, rather than offer platitudes....go and pray etc, i would really like some discussion on this. Naivley I thought you 'had' to be born again to be in a relationship with Christ...also, my minister gentleman said the OT should be forgotten, thrown out, it was unforgiving & unloving. I understood the new covenant was brought in by Christ but He himself said he did not come to replace it...oh dear!! I would appreciate some clarity. I know I can and will get it through this by returning to the Word in prayer etc but, it is such a blessing to be able to communicate with like minded folks and discuss what we all love, the Truth. There is more I can add, if anyone would like to engage with me on this, ask away!! I thank you all in advance!! <><

Donkeyfish07 · Feb 12, 2013

I struggle with hopeless feelings sometimes too. I know god is always there but I'm not perfect and i still mess up. I feel bad for having to repent constantly. I do so good for months and then slip up, and have to start all over. I know that I'm saved and I have a place in heaven, but I do always worry that I might do something stupid to mess my salvation up. The bible is clear that "all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and I know god's word is always true but i still feel the way i described sometimes.

kenisyes · Feb 12, 2013

People today fall in love, and burn with passion for each other, kind of like being born again is for some people. it does not have to be that way. Do you know the show "Fiddler on the Roof"? Remember the song where the husband and wife sing to each other "Do you love me?" Here's a link. Do you suppose this is anything like Jesus and the Bride? Fiddler on the roof - Do you love me ? (with subtitles) - YouTube

hattiebod · Feb 12, 2013

Thank you so much for replying, I appreciate that so much. Its always a bit of a step into the unknown on a site like this...is my post worthy of a reply?

I also appreciate your honesty. I hope you do not mind if I ask a question? and I know it is can be hard to communicate through a type writter! so forgive me if my words seem unkind but I am interested in what you think & what you are feeling. Do you feel the need to repent....all the time? I think I repent all the time, i sin all the time, but I do have confidence in the promises of God. I believe if Islip up, I am safe. Sinning sadly is natural for us, we are sinful people. You sound aware of your relationship with Christ and of his forgiveness, yet say you mess up on your forgivenessand maybe this troubles you ? Is this your responsipility? I do not doubt this is what you are feeling & believing....I hope you will allow us to explore it more....or maybe I have got this SO wrong!! In which case I am sorry. Thank you for replying to my post, in His name, <><

Juniper_531 · Feb 12, 2013

Donkeyfish07 said:

I can relate to this. I have to keep reminding myself that my feelings and emotions are not always consistent with the truth and with reality. I have had a traumatic year and a half and sometimes I don't feel saved, even though at one point in my life I was on fire for God and felt like I saw his hand on my life everywhere and was pretty confident that I was saved. But I take solace in knowing that no sin is too big to be forgiven and that I will be forgiven over and over again as long as I am repentant.

hattiebod · Feb 12, 2013

Thank you for replying....also I loved looking at the clip from UTube, but no, I KNOW my passion... I am blessed I guess? I just never had it any other way! but I need to say, that my relationship with Christ is not a slow burn, but i appreciate for many it may be..you are telling me its a fait accompli, a 'getting used too''. OK, so it happened to this 78 year old Scottish minister after a life time of serving the church and he was a little sad, thast he did not have the passion he has now, 60+ years ago. I am asking what is going on....he is / was a Christian, but he was / was not ''born again'' . Just a question.......

kenisyes · Feb 12, 2013

Born again is an application of a phrase Jesus used in a different situation. It's purpose is to stress certain aspects of entering into the journey with Christ. Many people see different parts of the journey, so they preach different aspects. Anyone following Jesus wholeheartedly is on their way to heaven.

The other thing you ask, I know the sin inside me, and am aware of it, and I do not like it there. But i am also aware of Jesus inside me, and if He doesn't mind that I have not conquered some of it yet, I don't either.

And you are quite right. Feelings are completely irrelevant to facts.

crossnote · Feb 12, 2013

"also, my minister gentleman said the indicates the OT should be forgotten thrown out, it was unforgiving & unloving."

This concerns me the most as it to me indicates a minister who does not have the Holy Spirit/not born again.
This is a mantra of liberal christianity, Europe is full of and America increasingly so.
Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (all scripture means all) and 1Corinthians 10:6

hattiebod · Feb 12, 2013

OK... I really do and would like to understand that but I believe i do not need to be defeated, to think its Ok to sit with 'sin'. Born Again is quite explicit. To me. In the Word. In the Bible. But, what is the answer you gave ? Different parts of the journey? Surley if Christ is Christ, the Bible is the Bible. Truth is Truth. Oh!! MYY DEAR GOD!! we might actually start to see things as WE wanted.....Yes.. I want to look on life from a Godly perspective. Also...If you have sin inside of you and are aware of it?....PPPPPPPleeeeease, in the power of our Jesus Christ, what are ''we'' doing accepting that we are powerless over it????
I think Jesus does mind....Very much.
And yes, feelings are totally irrelvanyt to facts.
(tahnk you to replying by the way! but...)

hattiebod · Feb 12, 2013

Thats exactly my question!!

Donkeyfish07 · Feb 12, 2013

It's really tough to live a godly life. In my post I was basically saying even though I feel like that sometimes, I still have faith that god will pull me through even when I'm not actually "feeling" it emotionally at that point.

crossnote · Feb 12, 2013

hattiebod said:

Then personally I would seek a Church where the WHOLE Bible is taught and taught as God's Word without error fully inspired by God. See, as a born again christian you have the Author living in you and red lights go on when a minister makes crazy comments like the one he did.

Anonimous · Feb 12, 2013

Trust me...you can not live by your feelings. God knows that we are not perfect...especially after salvation. I fell into the trap before and it gets you nowhere. I went through that once. What it did do for me was to cause me to look up and remember what he did for me on the cross. He lifted me up, dusted me off and continued the walk with me. We are never expected or asked to make this journey on our own. If we were able to do that there would have been no reason for God to send His Holy Spirit. Just depend on Him one day at a time.

Tommy4Christ · Feb 12, 2013

hattiebod said:

I would encourage you to stop listening to mere men who are confusing you, and first and foremost make sure you have a saving faith, God is not the author of confususion, and I pray you would seek Him and His truth with all your heart and soul!

A Call to Repentance
Joel,2-12 “Now, therefore,” says the LORD,
“Turn to Me with all your heart,
With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”
13 So rend your heart, and not your garments;
Return to the LORD your God,
For He is gracious and merciful,
Slow to anger, and of great kindness;
And He relents from doing harm.
14 Who knows if He will turn and relent,
And leave a blessing behind Him—
Here is more strong proof what the lord requires of His creation to be reconciled to Himself, it’s very simple but made so complicated by the heaps and heaps of pastors and ministries who have the nerve to say mankind does NOT have to repent to be saved.
They come with a simple plan that was concocted by many reformed preachers and bible scholars, making the way to the cross more of a simple confession you are a sinner, then accepting the great substitution Jesus miraculously made for them, but they fail to give any proof that the word of God let alone the King of Kings taught this non sense!
Many will fight with all they have to preserve their man made doctrines including original sin, which then gives them many excuses to ignore the powerful verse above as well as many more strong warnings to repent, turn, come broken in heart before the mercy seat, and hope and pray God will grant pardon!
Now if this was being preached in the church system today, and well understood by the saved in sin defenders, then the mess Christianity is in today would not be so, instead, the word of God would become real, and powerful, converting the lost soul, once in love with sin, rebellion and the world, now cleansed and purged of all filthiness, and wickedness, ready to receive the implanted word of God!
But today these verses are totally ignored, and replaced with a sin message, undermined by many, many, reformed errors, where simple repentance is lost in a sea of original sin, imputation, substitution, OSAS etc, producing a church that was called poor, blind and naked by Jesus Himself!
2 Corinthians 6;17 The.refore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[d]
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”[e]
Act 26:20 But to those first in Damascus, and Jerusalem, and to all the country of Judea, and to the nations, I made known the command to repent and to turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.
Tommy 1-23-13
PS. We must come to Jesus on His terms, not mans, I know many are taught the opposite today, they either were indoctrinated into these teachings at an early age, and refuse to even search the scriptures, search what the early church taught, or dig deep to see just how far off the mark many liberal translations of the Bible are.
When the reformation came about, around the year 1500, many denominations were formed that took these errors and built on them, leading to what we have today! Many will profess anything different from what their beloved denominations teach is heresy, and a lie, especially those who cling to Calvinism, or any form of it.
This I understand, and accept, as God predicted this would happen, when the few remnant come with the truth. But it’s a bitter pill to swallow, when you see so many sincere people, young and old, so angry and upset when the truth is presented to them, and they attack the messenger.
To me this shows just how far off the mark they are in their minds, they love the lie, refuse to hear anything else except the born sinner, Jesus sub plan, made so famous by the likes of Billy Graham, Ed Young, and many more mega preachers, selling a gospel that is totally backwards from what the early church and Christ taught.
Are we full of pride and arrogant to say these things? Are we evil, uncaring, and full of hate when we confront the wall of deception accepted as truth today?
I guess I can also say this about the many who cling to the saved IN sin message, repeat after me crowd, who has every excuse why they can sin with impunity, then just confess, and then continue as a vile sinner in heart, where purity and separation is a pipe dream never to be accomplished in this life, even though the whole council of God is against them.
Dig deep as commanded, have some confidence in the Lord to lead you into truth, not some ministry or church pastor you support, who clings to these errors for whatever reason.
The gospel according to godliness is a TO DO gospel, which can only be received and understood in its form and context when the sinner wakes up and does this:
James 1-21-22;
21 So get rid of all uncleanness(repent) and the rampant outgrowth of wickedness, and in a humble (gentle, modest) spirit receive and welcome the Word which implanted and rooted [in your hearts] contains the power to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].!
1, You repent first and foremost, see 2 Corinthians 7-10-11.
2, Then if the repentance is real, and from the heart, godly sorrow as described in 2 Corinthians, you then can receive the implanted word of God, and understand it as written by God.
3, Now you become a passionate doer of the word, obeying God from your heart, cleansed and purified, broken and willing to learn and grow more, and more in His great truth.

hattiebod · Feb 12, 2013

I thank you very much for taking the time to replying to my post but I appologise, I feel no warmth, or compassion from you. Your words and the way you write and reply is, to me, clinical and cold. I am sure what you say is accurate...learned...wise? and yo do not mean to be so distant. I see you are a 'senior member' & have over 2,208 posts, this is admirable but does not signify compassion or thoughtfulness. Feelings, as you say, are indeed irrelvant to facts but to many are extremely powerful.

nonicknametouse · Feb 12, 2013

In John 3:1-15 Jesus tells Nicodemus that "You must be born again or you cannot see the Kingdom of God. When you receive Jesus you receive the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians talkes about how the Spirit is a deposit, a guaranteeing our future. The new Test is the fullfillment of the old test. The Lord would not have given us the ot if He thought we did not need it. It saddens me when People are ministered to by people who don't know the bible or Jesus. I'm proud of you for this question and you wanting to know the truth. Chriatians are in different places spiritually. Sometimes we do lose our fire for the Lord. We all need to get back to our first love. My advice is that you pray that the Lord will help you find a church home that teaches God's word. Ask him to appoint a mentor and a prayer partner. Thats so important. Concerning your friend, she may not be born again. Maybe she needs to receive the Lord in her life all over again. I will get back to you on this issue. I want to pray about it. I hope i was a help to you.

cooterhein · Feb 13, 2013

I got some links. It's John Piper. Monergistic regeneration. It aligns really well with my own experience, although God can work in different ways- you can come up with three or four very different ways in which the Holy Spirit works or begins to work just from Scripture.

That Which Is Born of the Spirit Is Spirit The Role of the Holy Spirit in Conversion - Desiring God
Is Being Born Again Up to Us? - Desiring God
What Happens in the New Birth? Part 1 - Desiring God
What Happens in the New Birth? Part 2 - Desiring God

I break it down like this. First, I focus on who does what. God does stuff. We have stuff done to us. Second, though, it does help to have an idea of what specific stuff God generally does and would like to do to you. That way, you can ask Him to do specific things and have the right kinds of expectations. Broadly speaking, that's the process. After that, it's just a matter of searching the Scriptures to find out what God intends to do with you. And then you ask Him- and maybe, sometimes, He doesn't do it right away. That's ok. Maybe He does stuff right away. That's ok, too. Finally, you keep asking God to be continuously active in doing stuff, because it's not just the getting-you-saved stuff that God wants to do. I don't want to make a huge post, so I won't go into more detail than that as of now. Scripture and a team effort (and it does help to have several knowledgeable/spiritually healthy people on your team) are the long term keys.

One other note. Your minister friend has a partially mistaken POV on the OT. I'm sure he's not completely wrong about absolutely everything, but you should check his work for yourself and hopefully work through some things with him. I do have one thing to say about the unforgiving wrath of the OT and so forth, if I may. It's super important to remember that the OT covers a very long period of time- about 4500 BCE from the time of Abraham (perhaps the furthest back that we consistently have strictly narratival accounts) up to, when was it, 400 BCE or so? Thousands and thousands of years- and where the historical portions are concerned, one thing we know about all history covering vast periods of time is that it tends to focus on wars, fighting, extinction level events. Just the really big stuff. The NT, by comparison, covers a few decades. In fact, we get hardly anything from the early life of Jesus, the Gospels spend almost all their time on His three years or so of ministry, and the rest of it covers another 30 or 40 years, plus a confusing apocalyptic thing. I would argue that for the amount of time that's covered, you can hardly expect there to be as much bloodshed in a few decades as there is in four millennia. Additionally, the matter has been presented to me in this manner: God spread out His wrath over many centuries and millennia through much of human history, and then at the Cross, He poured out all of that wrath on one person and one specific place and time- not over the course of several decades, even, but just a few hours while Jesus was being crucified. This is an idea- it's not necessarily a well-developed thing that's worthy of publication- but the idea is that there's a rough equivalence between all that OT wrath and the punishment that Jesus endured on the Cross. If anything, the OT wrath- as much as there is- would pale in comparison to something that most would readily acknowledge as something that's rather infinite. Basically, it's the same sort of thing, in a way- but it's repackaged in a way that works out much better for all of humanity. And the OT is pretty important for understanding why Jesus died and how that's related to the redemptive work of God throughout the previous several thousand years. I'm sure your minister friend does have an understanding of this- he may have slightly overstated his position in a way that doesn't account for any of that, though.

pickles · Feb 13, 2013

hattiebod said:

Hattiebod,

do not throw out any of the bible, Jesus is as presant in the ot as he is in the nt, all gives glory and is God's word to us.

Paul spoke well to what you are asking.
When we receive Jesus, we die with Him to flesh, so we may live with Him in Spirit.
Jesus said I will place a part of my Spirit in you.
Just as newborns need to learn from their parents how to live in the body we are given.
When we die wth Jesus, then born into His Spirit, we learn from Him, God Our Father, how to live in His Spirit, for we are newborns in spirit.

Obedience to God is learning from our eternal Father, so we may know how to live in Jesus.
Faith , hope and love are the food that sustains us.
That is why we keep our eyes on Jesus, feed on the word, live as we are asked, so we will grow in His spirit, becomeing mature.

I sometimes see the times we feel alone or struggle as growing pains.
In James it says count it joy when you are involved in every sort of trial, realise that when your faith is tested, it makes for endurance.

Do not dispair, for Jesus is faithful, as scripture says, He who has begun a good work in you will bring it to compleation on the day of the Lord.

Just keep your eyes on Jesus, for He always has you in His sight.

God bless
pickles

Ariel82 · Feb 13, 2013

the only time anyone can truly say they are a child of God is if the Holy Spirit testifies with their spirit that they may call out ABBA, Father. (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6)

there are so many questions and I'm not sure how many you want to still discuss.

1. if you are not convicted of your sins then you are illegimate not true adopted children of God because God chastens and cleanses every child of His so that they might have the fruit of righteousness.

2. studying the OT shows how the Law was our tutor and how we are slaves to our bodies until we learned of our adoption and had the Holy Spirit lead us to putting to death the sinful fleshly desires.

3. some people only have a mental understanding of their faith and have not allowed it to change their heart. its like the difference between Godly repentance and worldly repentance. one makes the person want to change and repent, the other is upset that they were caught doing wrong and have to pay the consequences but would do it again if they thought they could get away with it.

not sure if that makes any sense.

kenisyes · Feb 13, 2013

hattiebod said:

Explicit to you, yes. Not the same to everyone. I was answering how your old pastor friend can be different. I said "IF Jesus does not mind". Of course He does, but He understands that it's one sin at a time. I have learned to wait for His timing, and his plans. There are many places on the road, many ways to follow Jesus. Each of us needs to follow the Holy Spirit inside. Scripture confirms experience, experience confirms Scripture. That was your original question, was it not? How your journey can be not typical of everyone?

Some advice re 'Born Again' please

hattiebod

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Donkeyfish07

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kenisyes

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hattiebod

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Juniper_531

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hattiebod

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kenisyes

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crossnote

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hattiebod

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Donkeyfish07

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crossnote

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Anonimous

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Tommy4Christ

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hattiebod

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