Some help and civility please...rapture??

[Nehemiah6]

so have we decided yet how many times Jesus returns? once or twice????

Whenever we read of the second coming of Christ "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY" it is always a return to earth in judgment. So that is the ONE second coming that is revealed in Scripture.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

However, as Paul clearly tells us about the Rapture "Behold I show you a MYSTERY". This is strictly for the saints, and Christ does NOT return to earth. He comes "in the air" and He returns with His saints to Heaven. So this in not coming twice to earth.

 

[Bladerunner]

What about all of those who were saved and died during the millennium?

And - when do they get their Judgment Day?

Do you not believe that the wording of Revelation 20:15 leaves any room for saved people?

Hi GaryA...Thanks for asking..... While the following are my suppostions; I urge you to exercise Acts 17:11 to verify or NOT.

You Said:"What about all of those who were saved and died during the millennium And - when do they get their Judgment Day??"


It is my understanding that during the Millennium;

(a)Those that do not believe will live no longer than 100 years. Could death happen earlier?Certainly..Jesus will rule the earth with a "Rod of Iron" (Rev 2:27) meaning a swift and righteous justice given to those who break His commandments.

(b) Those who come to believe in Jesus Christ will continue to live until the Millennium is finished. They will they will then become saints and receive their Immortal bodies.

(c) Those who do not believe and die at the ripe ol' age of 100, their souls will await in Hell (Hades) until the The Great White Throne Judgement. Here, Jesus will sit on the right side of His father and make judgment on all those that have been resurrected from Hell (Hades).

(d) The Remnant of Israel, Those that Believed in the Jesus and His Words, escaped certain death by fleeing to Petra. Accordingly these people have been instilled with the spirit of GOD within them. They will not be able to do any sin. The Bible does not say about their offspring but I would guess they would not 'NOT Believe ' ( I know a double Neg here)

Having said that, No one has received their Immortal Bodies during the Millennium. The government of Israel and the Jewish people is through whom Jesus rules the Nations of the earth.


You Said: "Do you not believe that the wording of Revelation 20:15 leaves any room for saved people?"



GaryA, I think that (v11 and v14) tells you the answer to your question. The last possible time to be saved and have an eternal life is during the Millennium. All those that were like (v15) most likely have been killed during Daniel's 70th week. If I were one of the survivors and see that those words are coming true, I would really try to find it within myself to come to Know Jesus quickly. Of course as I stated above. Those who do not believe will be residing Hell and Hades after the death of their mortal bodies.

ONE Other Question that Should be Asked: Could there be a few who are brought into Heaven from the Great White Throne Judgment? NO, the Bible does not tell me nor does it give me any information that those that rest in Hades (Hell) could be saved.

 

[TMS]

Do you believe that the Jewish wedding process (events leading up to, betrothal, etc. ) in Jesus's day and before was symbolic of the second coming. Jesus used the wedding in His parables and if you study the steps of the groom and bride leading up to the wedding day it tells me that there is a wedding coming very soon. One wedding between Christ and the church (saved). One wedding event fits with the typology, but 2 or 3 doesn't.

 

[Allenbee]

OK... so the disagreement just goes on and on, but NOBODY wants it sorted out it seems.

I have an idea to help sort this mess out !

How about a new thread headed; "Pretrib,midtrib,postrib and Exodus today".

Now on this thread supporters of any of those 4 end time beliefs, tells the STORY of their belief, according to these chapter headings. These are listed as they are to occur I think, but open to change, help, or suggestions.


So… I will fill it in for for Midtrib now.

1; My present belief is :

Midtrib

2; How to prepare for my belief :
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.

So… at Mat 24 we see the first part of the great tribulation and it’s on the whole world. From the disasters and the wars prophesied, the victors hate us Christians, and will kill us because of HIS name.
This evil and man made WAR - is cut short by God, “on account of the chosen ones”. So there ARE believers who survive.
To me, this a prepared people who flee the cities as congregations, to the wilderness…using their money wisely. Math 13: 44-45 and all the parables fit perfectly.


3; How we survive the great tribulation :

We (the great crowd) are with the 144,000 Jews who believe in Jesus. (Messianic Jews). Rev 7:1-8 These ones are marked and protected… immediately after the tribulations prophesied at Math 24;7-9. The 144,OOO and the earthly “great crowd” SEE the sign of our Lord’s presence and rejoice greatly. Rev 7; 9-17.
Greek to English; “in SIGHT of the throne and the lamb”.

4: Where are we at our Lords return :

Those who lost their lives but faithful to Jesus are resurrected on earth, and now join those alive on earth increasing the “great crowd” who are worldwide.
The holy ones missing from both groups have been granted everlasting life in heaven. THIS is the rapture. Kings and priests ruling over the whole earth with the Lord of the earth.
(We do know there is life in heaven and life on earth...so nothing new).

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .

Those believers on earth both Messianic Jew and gentile, are the “woman” at Rev 12;14 who flee to the place prepared by God since creation. The untouched wilderness of our mother earth, and are protected there. Away from satan and his angels, who have been cast down to earth just before the sign of our Lords presence. War in heaven. Rev 12: 7-9. The stars falling from heaven at Math 24;29 is seen as satan and his angels being cast down. ( Rev 12; 4 shows 1/3 of the stars as satans tail only).
So the woman is protected from God’s WRATH, which is directed at flattening all cities worldwide. This is the final 3 1\2 years.
Satan on earth…”the disgusting thing causing desolation”, is at the start of GOD’S WRATH. Our Lord appears… at the start of God’s WRATH leading it.


6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium :

The 3 ½ years ends with Armageddon, when Satan (Gog) surrounds “those dwelling with no bars and no wall” (the woman in the wilderness), and THIS is GOD’S WAR…WORLDWIDE.
The end of Satans Kingdom and it’s evil children, is the BEGINNING of our “HalleluJAH”…Lord’s reign.

Come Lord Jesus…come. We await your beautiful presence in your beautiful creation.

……………………………………………………………………………………………

So that's MY understanding of our Lords appearance at midtrib, and yes there is a rapture for CHOSEN ones. CHOSEN by GOD…not man !!!
If you see midtrib differently please show us… the STORY .


Please note: Personally I promote the earthly “Kingdom of God” as Jesus did, and so precious to our Lord, as HE helped create “the Kingdom of God” on earth.
So to me… a “rapture”, is only for those exemplary holy ones, and chosen to rule with our Lord over “the Kingdom of God” on earth. The rapture to heaven IS NOT what the Bible is all about from Geneses to Revelation. The Kingdom of God IS ! “The tent of God WILL be with … mankind”.
Actually the resurrection of mankind from throughout the ages, is far more important than the rapture. Is there a rapture after the millennial resurrection ? NOPE.

 

[MarcR]

Do not like to argue but:
The biggest church in the world is the catholic church, they are amillennial, so is the eastern orthodox, lutheran and most mainline protestants.

The only groups I know who are post-trib premill are certain independent baptists, some charismatics (Most of them are pre-trib also) and the usual suspects of SDAs and church of God people.

The meaning of church (ecclesia) is called out body of believers.

I can't see how that fits the RCC who put the authority of men above the authority of Scripture.

other churches you failed to mention include The Christian Church, Evangelical Free, Mennonite, Mission Covenant, Calvary Chapel, Free Methodist, Christian Missionary Alliance, In Faith, and many others.

Now you can be aware of them too.

 

[MarcR]

so have we decided yet how many times Jesus returns? once or twice????

He returns only once. At the rapture He does NOT return.... We meet Him in the air.

 

[MarcR]

It does if "first" actually means first.

How can the dead rise "first" AFTER the rev 14 gathering???

This has been overlooked for years.

I stumbled across it in my readings about 2 years ago.

Post trib is rapture is an impossibly

The two words translated as tribulation in Scripture are:

The Hebrew word Tsur anthe Greek word Thlipsis. Both refer to the persecution of the Church by the world; NOT to God's judgement of the world.

 

[Allenbee]

So… I will fill it in for for postrib and include postrib/prewrath rapture.

1; My present belief is :

Post trib or Post trib/pre wrath

2; How to prepare for my belief :
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.


So postrib is Jesus appears after the WHOLE tribulation, and then a rapture.

So…believers as a prepared people are to flee the cities as congregations, to the wilderness…using their money wisely. Math 13: 44-45 and all the parables fit perfectly.


3; How we survive the great tribulation :

We (the great crowd) are with the 144,000 Jews who believe in Jesus. (Messianic Jews). Rev 7:1-8 These ones are marked and protected… immediately after the tribulations prophesied at Math 24;7-9. The 144,OOO and the earthly “great crowd” SEE the sign of our Lord’s presence and rejoice greatly. Rev 7; 9-17.
Greek to English; “in SIGHT of the throne and the lamb”.

4: Where are we at our Lords return :

Those who lost their lives but faithful to Jesus are resurrected on earth, and now join those alive on earth increasing the “great crowd” who are worldwide.
The holy ones missing from both groups have been granted everlasting life in heaven. THIS is the rapture. Kings and priests ruling over the whole earth with the Lord of the earth.
(We do know there is life in heaven and life on earth...so nothing new).

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .

Those believers on earth both Messianic Jew and gentile, are the “woman” at Rev 12;14 who flee to the place prepared by God since creation. The untouched wilderness of our mother earth, and are protected there. Away from satan and his angels, who have been cast down to earth just before the sign of our Lords presence. War in heaven. Rev 12: 7-9. The stars falling from heaven at Math 24;29 is seen as satan and his angels being cast down. ( Rev 12; 4 shows 1/3 of the stars as satans tail only).
So the woman is protected from God’s WRATH, which is directed at flattening all cities worldwide. This is the final 3 1\2 years.
Satan on earth…”the disgusting thing causing desolation”, is at the start of GOD’S WRATH. Our Lord appears… at the start of God’s WRATH leading it.


6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium :

The 3 ½ years ends with Armageddon, when Satan (Gog) surrounds “those dwelling with no bars and no wall” (the woman in the wilderness), and THIS is GOD’S WAR…WORLDWIDE.
The end of Satans Kingdom and it’s evil children, is the BEGINNING of our “HalleluJAH”…Lord’s reign.

Come Lord Jesus…come. We await your beautiful presence in your beautiful creation.

Next....EXODUS TODAY !

 

[Nehemiah6]

The two words translated as tribulation in Scripture are:

The Hebrew word Tsur anthe Greek word Thlipsis. Both refer to the persecution of the Church by the world; NOT to God's judgement of the world.

So what you are suggesting is that there will be no specific and designated time when God will pour out all His judgments upon the unbelieving and the ungodly. But that is not what is revealed in Scripture.

Since Revelation 4 through 18 describe all the events within the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation, and at the same time there is no mention of "the Church" or "churches" in these chapters, there is no way that one can interpret the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation as periods of "persecution of the Church". These are times of wrath against the unbelievers and the ungodly.

The Church was under persecution from day one, but Scripture makes it crystal clear that the Great Tribulation is a period of time such as has never been, nor will ever be again. It is also the time when God "shakes" the heavens and the earth. These are all judgments which coincide with the Day of the LORD, and that is clearly a period of judgment on sinners and the ungodly. Indeed, they try to hide from the WRATH OF THE LAMB, and God's wrath will not be directed against His own, since Christ bore that wrath on our behalf.

 

[heartofdavid]

The two words translated as tribulation in Scripture are:

The Hebrew word Tsur anthe Greek word Thlipsis. Both refer to the persecution of the Church by the world; NOT to God's judgement of the world.

rev 2
22 [FONT=&quot]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Several times,in the OT,God used armies to chasten his people.

I don't think the wrath/trib argument is very well thought out.[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

So what you are suggesting is that there will be no specific and designated time when God will pour out all His judgments upon the unbelieving and the ungodly. But that is not what is revealed in Scripture.

Since Revelation 4 through 18 describe all the events within the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation, and at the same time there is no mention of "the Church" or "churches" in these chapters, there is no way that one can interpret the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation as periods of "persecution of the Church". These are times of wrath against the unbelievers and the ungodly.

The Church was under persecution from day one, but Scripture makes it crystal clear that the Great Tribulation is a period of time such as has never been, nor will ever be again. It is also the time when God "shakes" the heavens and the earth. These are all judgments which coincide with the Day of the LORD, and that is clearly a period of judgment on sinners and the ungodly. Indeed, they try to hide from the WRATH OF THE LAMB, and God's wrath will not be directed against His own, since Christ bore that wrath on our behalf.

postrib adherants try to divert away from God having anything to do with the GT. Same with "pre wrath" adherents . To them,"the great tribulation" is satan's baby,and then here comes God entering the picture with his wrath.

They haven't thought that out. The 4 horsemen are released by heaven. The AC is empowered by heaven,to kill the saints,and overcome them.

It gets even messier,because tribulation is basically trouble. So when God Judges we see him bring trouble.
The overlap is; God can bring trouble to the disobedient and in severity,they experience his wrath.

Satan can not ,of his own initiative bring God's wrath,but God uses satan to execute judgement,wrath.
Basically,the great tribulation is 7 years of Judgement.
Those framing their entire belief system on a few definitions have not dug very deeply.

 

[Mem]

I must've gotten lost somewhere about page 2.

 

[PlainWord]

Good analogy my friend. At the very least, the 4 horsemen are riding. Probably for quite some time now.

Pretty sure they are all back in the barn now.

 

[PlainWord]

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation. The great tribulation is designated as...

Matthew 24:[SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.[SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That above is the tribulation we are in now.

Matthew 24:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That above will happen at the pre trib rapture event. The first angel with the everlasting gospel of the three angels that shall set up the hour of temptation to try all upon the earth after the pre trib rapture as Revelation 14th chapter testify of.

Revelation 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[SUP] 10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Then the rest of this reference in Matthew cited below is about the great tribulation after the pre trib rapture.

Matthew 24:[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:[SUP] 18 [/SUP]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days![SUP] 20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:[SUP] 21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus was answering more than one question put to Him from His disciples and He was not giving His answers in chronological order, but going back and forth a lot among those questions put to Him.

So your reference is back to citing only the regular tribulation that we are all under now which is why all believers need Him to prepare them to be found abiding in Him & ready to go before the Bridegroom comes when afterwards a fire and a subsequent great tribulation will follow as a result.

Your Ephesians 2:6 proves that the other references of being taken to meet the Lord in the air is to sit down at the Marriage Supper in Heaven. So in no way is there a mid nor a post rapture event when at His coming, He is warring against the army moving against Jerusalem. Hardly a time for a sitting down event at the Marriage Supper when He is on earth to defeat Satan & put him in the pit for a thousand year.

Someone needs to study a little history. All of these things were fulfilled in the first century.

 

[Allenbee]

So… I will show the story of my belief.

1; My present belief is : Exodus today.

Personally I believe in the earthly “Kingdom of God” as that was our lord’s MAIN teaching, and so precious to our Lord, as HE helped create “the Kingdom of God” on earth.
So to me… a “rapture”, is only for those exemplary holy ones, and chosen to rule with our Lord over “the Kingdom of God” on earth. The rapture to heaven IS NOT what the Bible is all about from Geneses to Revelation.
The Kingdom of God IS ! “The tent of God WILL be with … mankind”.
Actually the resurrection of mankind from throughout the ages, is far more important than the rapture. Is there a rapture after the millennial resurrection ? NOPE. So…we flee the great tribulation worldwide, to start the promised Eden.
Exodus today… which has huge support from ALL the end time prophets.

2; How to prepare for my belief :
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.
So… at Mat 24 we see the first part of the great tribulation and it’s on the whole world. From the disasters and the wars prophesied, the victors hate us Christians, and will kill us because of HIS name.
This evil and man made WAR - is cut short by God, “on account of the chosen ones”. So there ARE believers who survive. To me, this a prepared people who flee the cities as congregations, to the wilderness…using their money wisely. Math 13: 44-45 and all the parables fit perfectly too.
The salvation from Jesus starts here; “Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains”. NOW consider this please; At AD 66, believers in Jesus DID obey to flee and lived, but unbelievers stayed and were killed or led off into slavery. Now Jesus is a Jew, He is the lion from the tribe of Judah.
We are HIS followers, so we know HIS believers (Messianic Jews and Christians) in Judea today flee that country (Israel), SO DO we flee our country… to the wilderness. OUT of the cities, as ALL CITIES worldwide will be destroyed.


3; How we survive the great tribulation :

Well we have fled the targeted destruction…the CITIES, AND the evil there who will kill us.
We (the great crowd) are with the 144,000 Jews STILL dispersed worldwide, who believe in Jesus. (Messianic Jews). Today, wherever you live you will find Messianic Jews. Rev 7:1-8 These ones are marked and protected… immediately after the tribulations prophesied at Math 24;7-9.
The 144,OOO and the earthly “great crowd” SEE the sign of our Lord’s presence and rejoice greatly. Rev 7; 9-17. Greek to English; “in SIGHT of the throne and the lamb”

4: Where are we at our Lords return :

We will be awaiting our Lord in our Lord’s creation… the wilderness, free from the mark of the wild beast, as we are NO PART of satans world.
Those who lost their lives but faithful to Jesus are resurrected on earth, and now join those alive on earth increasing the “great crowd”. The holy ones missing from both groups have been granted everlasting life in heaven. THIS is the rapture. Kings and priests ruling over the whole earth with the Lord of the earth.
We DO KNOW there is life in heaven and life on earth, so some are worthy of heavenly life and some are worthy of earthly life. No big deal. Life on earth will be wonderful under our Lord’s rule, with HIS Kings and priests, and yes they will travel heaven and earth.

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .

Those believers on earth both Messianic Jew and gentile, are the “woman” at Rev 12;14 who have fled to the place prepared by God since creation. The untouched wilderness of our mother earth, and are protected there. BUT from the wilderness, brothers have been preaching the good news of God’s Kingdom whenever they can. “The voice in the wilderness” before our Lords return.
When Satan is cast down to earth as a man. THIS is the start of God’s WRATH, and the woman (true flock) flee permanently to their prepared place… AWAY from satan and his angels, who have been cast down to earth just before the sign of our Lords presence. War in heaven. Rev 12: 7-9. The stars falling from heaven at Math 24;29 is seen as satan and his angels being cast down. ( Rev 12; 4 shows 1/3 of the stars as satans tail only).
So the woman is protected from God’s WRATH, which is directed at flattening all cities worldwide. This is the final 3 1\2 years.
Satan on earth…”the disgusting thing causing desolation”, is at the start of GOD’S WRATH. Our Lord appears… at the start of God’s WRATH leading it.


6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium :

The 3 ½ years ends with Armageddon, when Satan (Gog) surrounds “those dwelling with no bars and no wall” (the woman in the wilderness), and THIS is GOD’S WAR…WORLDWIDE.
The end of Satans Kingdom and it’s evil children, is the BEGINNING of our “HalleluJAH”…Lord’s reign. Come Lord Jesus…come.

……………………………………………………………………………………………

So that's my belief, and the beauty is that if we go to the wilderness, and there is a pretrib for believers then we go from there. Same for mid trib or postrib.
To me... that is far better than staying in Satan's world..."eating and drinking and marrying"as an UNPREPARED people.

 

[Allenbee]

​

Sorry..something crazy going on. ridiculousness edit time messed things up..........................

2; How to prepare ​

How to prepare;

(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.​

That's easy, think of it like immigrating. Sell everything, cash up, and as an "church" (like the Amish have done) start a town dedicated to God, keeping all HIS laws and statutes. That's the safe bet to avoid disputes, and anyway it's only 3 1\2 years then our Lord is here...IF it's midtrib. Or if it's postrib then 7 years for our lord's return.​

​

 

[heartofdavid]

So… I will show the story of my belief.

1; My present belief is : Exodus today.

Personally I believe in the earthly “Kingdom of God” as that was our lord’s MAIN teaching, and so precious to our Lord, as HE helped create “the Kingdom of God” on earth.
So to me… a “rapture”, is only for those exemplary holy ones, and chosen to rule with our Lord over “the Kingdom of God” on earth. The rapture to heaven IS NOT what the Bible is all about from Geneses to Revelation.
The Kingdom of God IS ! “The tent of God WILL be with … mankind”.
Actually the resurrection of mankind from throughout the ages, is far more important than the rapture. Is there a rapture after the millennial resurrection ? NOPE. So…we flee the great tribulation worldwide, to start the promised Eden.
Exodus today… which has huge support from ALL the end time prophets.

2; How to prepare for my belief :
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.
So… at Mat 24 we see the first part of the great tribulation and it’s on the whole world. From the disasters and the wars prophesied, the victors hate us Christians, and will kill us because of HIS name.
This evil and man made WAR - is cut short by God, “on account of the chosen ones”. So there ARE believers who survive. To me, this a prepared people who flee the cities as congregations, to the wilderness…using their money wisely. Math 13: 44-45 and all the parables fit perfectly too.
The salvation from Jesus starts here; “Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains”. NOW consider this please; At AD 66, believers in Jesus DID obey to flee and lived, but unbelievers stayed and were killed or led off into slavery. Now Jesus is a Jew, He is the lion from the tribe of Judah.
We are HIS followers, so we know HIS believers (Messianic Jews and Christians) in Judea today flee that country (Israel), SO DO we flee our country… to the wilderness. OUT of the cities, as ALL CITIES worldwide will be destroyed.


3; How we survive the great tribulation :

Well we have fled the targeted destruction…the CITIES, AND the evil there who will kill us.
We (the great crowd) are with the 144,000 Jews STILL dispersed worldwide, who believe in Jesus. (Messianic Jews). Today, wherever you live you will find Messianic Jews. Rev 7:1-8 These ones are marked and protected… immediately after the tribulations prophesied at Math 24;7-9.
The 144,OOO and the earthly “great crowd” SEE the sign of our Lord’s presence and rejoice greatly. Rev 7; 9-17. Greek to English; “in SIGHT of the throne and the lamb”

4: Where are we at our Lords return :

We will be awaiting our Lord in our Lord’s creation… the wilderness, free from the mark of the wild beast, as we are NO PART of satans world.
Those who lost their lives but faithful to Jesus are resurrected on earth, and now join those alive on earth increasing the “great crowd”. The holy ones missing from both groups have been granted everlasting life in heaven. THIS is the rapture. Kings and priests ruling over the whole earth with the Lord of the earth.
We DO KNOW there is life in heaven and life on earth, so some are worthy of heavenly life and some are worthy of earthly life. No big deal. Life on earth will be wonderful under our Lord’s rule, with HIS Kings and priests, and yes they will travel heaven and earth.

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .

Those believers on earth both Messianic Jew and gentile, are the “woman” at Rev 12;14 who have fled to the place prepared by God since creation. The untouched wilderness of our mother earth, and are protected there. BUT from the wilderness, brothers have been preaching the good news of God’s Kingdom whenever they can. “The voice in the wilderness” before our Lords return.
When Satan is cast down to earth as a man. THIS is the start of God’s WRATH, and the woman (true flock) flee permanently to their prepared place… AWAY from satan and his angels, who have been cast down to earth just before the sign of our Lords presence. War in heaven. Rev 12: 7-9. The stars falling from heaven at Math 24;29 is seen as satan and his angels being cast down. ( Rev 12; 4 shows 1/3 of the stars as satans tail only).
So the woman is protected from God’s WRATH, which is directed at flattening all cities worldwide. This is the final 3 1\2 years.
Satan on earth…”the disgusting thing causing desolation”, is at the start of GOD’S WRATH. Our Lord appears… at the start of God’s WRATH leading it.


6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium :

The 3 ½ years ends with Armageddon, when Satan (Gog) surrounds “those dwelling with no bars and no wall” (the woman in the wilderness), and THIS is GOD’S WAR…WORLDWIDE.
The end of Satans Kingdom and it’s evil children, is the BEGINNING of our “HalleluJAH”…Lord’s reign. Come Lord Jesus…come.

……………………………………………………………………………………………

So that's my belief, and the beauty is that if we go to the wilderness, and there is a pretrib for believers then we go from there. Same for mid trib or postrib.
To me... that is far better than staying in Satan's world..."eating and drinking and marrying"as an UNPREPARED people.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride,the dead and alive ones.

The reason the Jews are dealt with differently is because of different covenant.

That is why the times of the gentiles ends,and The dynamic of heavens gaze shifts to the covenant Jews.
(Jacobs trouble=Israel's trouble).... Jewish trouble

 

[Locutus]

Pretty sure they are all back in the barn now.

They may as well be discussing the Four Norsemen of the Acropolis for all the sense they make...

 

[Muzungu256]

What about all of those who were saved and died during the millennium?

And - when do they get their Judgment Day?

Do you not believe that the wording of Revelation 20:15 leaves any room for saved people?

i wanna know this too u see. what about them who died during the millennium? this is a question premillennialists must answer u see because they cannot be resurrected in the 2nd, because all of them people go to the second death u see.
but honestly all premillennials should be pre or mid-trib because post-trib has no people left to survive in the flesh to the 1000 kingdom.... sekkluud mon they keep on piling them up. zang on a cloud

 

[heartofdavid]

Do you believe that the Jewish wedding process (events leading up to, betrothal, etc. ) in Jesus's day and before was symbolic of the second coming. Jesus used the wedding in His parables and if you study the steps of the groom and bride leading up to the wedding day it tells me that there is a wedding coming very soon. One wedding between Christ and the church (saved). One wedding event fits with the typology, but 2 or 3 doesn't.

Yes. The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

At the Las supper,Jesus actions mirrored the Wedding betrothal. The groom met with his FUTURE BRIDE,and they shared wine over the acceptance and agreement.

She accepted by drinking of the cup.

Awesome.