Some things about the law that need explaining.

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#21
the law came through Moses to a specific people God made a point of first being proven unfaithful. it is 'made for the transgressor, not for the righteous.' they were to adhere to and enforce it among themselves, but not to impose it on other nations. if foreigners wanted to become Jews or live among the Jews, they were expected also to keep it.

grace and peace came through Jesus Christ. He said "new" about at least three things: wine, commandment, and covenant.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#22
5. You say you agree with the New Covenant, but keep inserting law into it. You cannot do that and expect a proper understanding.
You are saying that if we listen to the Lord telling us of His law it is "inserting" it. You cannot refuse a part of God, remaking God in your own image, and know God. The Lord tells us of His law. The 119th psalm is scripture along with every other verse of scripture.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#23
the law came through Moses to a specific people God made a point of first being proven unfaithful. it is 'made for the transgressor, not for the righteous.' righteousness does not come by it. it makes sin all the more sinful. it is said of it in the scripture, if anyone does all of it they will live by it. it carries a curse to anyone who fails at a single part of it, even the least jot or tittle.
the scripture never speaks of it as though it is separable. it is one law. God incarnate says of it, that the basis is in two obscure chapters of Deuteronomy & Leviticus -- not in the ten commandments. humans often give out misinformation about it.

the people it was given to could not bear to hear God speak & asked for it to be administered through a mediator. they were to adhere to and enforce it among themselves, but not to impose it on other nations. if foreigners wanted to become Jews or live among the Jews, they were expected also to keep it.

grace and peace came through Jesus Christ. He said "new" about at least three things: wine, commandment, and covenant. the writer to the Hebrews says that by saying "new" He makes the first old - and that it waxes away. in Deuteronomy God, through Moses, explicitly calls the 10 commandments "the covenant" made at Horeb. Paul, taught by Jesus Christ, calls it 'a ministry of death engraved on stones' -- if anyone protest that fact, let them take it up with God Almighty & the writer of the epistle.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#24
the law came through Moses to a specific people God made a point of first being proven unfaithful. it is 'made for the transgressor, not for the righteous.' they were to adhere to and enforce it among themselves, but not to impose it on other nations. if foreigners wanted to become Jews or live among the Jews, they were expected also to keep it.

grace and peace came through Jesus Christ. He said "new" about at least three things: wine, commandment, and covenant.
Yes the Lord spoke to the people who accepted Him, the Lord made them caretakers of His word. But there is absolutely nowhere in scripture that tells us that God excludes gentiles because they were not born of the Jewish race. If you find that in scripture, please post it as it has escaped me.

The Jews were told of the blessings God gave for obedience, but there is nowhere that the blessing of forgiveness of sin is counted among those blessings. They were to use sacrifices that told them of what Christ did when Christ gave him blood for us, and those sacrifices were hated by the Lord unless they were used for the forgiveness of sin. Grace was not withheld from mankind for 4,000 years, grace was from the beginning.

Our God is a holy, loving God. His love and Holiness was true in the old testament, it did not start with Christ. Christ and the Father are one.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#25
Yes the Lord spoke to the people who accepted Him, the Lord made them caretakers of His word. But there is absolutely nowhere in scripture that tells us that God excludes gentiles because they were not born of the Jewish race. If you find that in scripture, please post it as it has escaped me.
anyone caught doing a number of things under the was was to be stoned to death by the whole congregation.
i do not see god commanding the Israelites to stone to death anyone outside of Israel. therefore i don't see any evidence that God commanded Israel to enforce the law on anyone outside of Israel.

i didn't say "
God excludes Gentiles" -- that's your comment. i do not agree that refraining from imposing the Law specifically given at Sinai to a disobedient and faithless specific people who accused God of murder is tantamount to "God excludes Gentiles" -- that's your comment, and not mine.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#26
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him? Did Jesus change the law when He came? Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ? Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
The nation of Israel was supposed to be bringing us gentiles into salvation thru Christ (Zechariah 8).

We gentiles were supposed to be saved thru their rise (Genesis 12:3)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
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#27
anyone caught doing a number of things under the was was to be stoned to death by the whole congregation.
i do not see god commanding the Israelites to stone to death anyone outside of Israel. therefore i don't see any evidence that God commanded Israel to enforce the law on anyone outside of Israel.


i didn't say "God excludes Gentiles" -- that's your comment. i do not agree that refraining from imposing the Law specifically given at Sinai to a disobedient and faithless specific people who accused God of murder is tantamount to "God excludes Gentiles" -- that's your comment, and not mine.
What is the difference between "Israel only" and if something in ONLY for Israel, then gentiles are not Israel so it is not for them.

Of course, when the nations reject the Lord, until they accept Him they are outside of the training God is offering Israel. They are always welcomed into being God's children, but it is their choice.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#28
The nation of Israel was supposed to be bringing us gentiles into salvation thru Christ (Zechariah 8).

We gentiles were supposed to be saved thru their rise (Genesis 12:3)
So true. God always wanted the gentiles to be saved. We are all created by Him, we are, every one, loved by God and God wants us to be His children. God does not see us as Greeks, women, men, Jews, or gentiles only but as His creation. The Israelites were given special blessings, not because they were God's favorite people, but because they did a special work for the Lord.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#29
So true. God always wanted the gentiles to be saved. We are all created by Him, we are, every one, loved by God and God wants us to be His children. God does not see us as Greeks, women, men, Jews, or gentiles only but as His creation. The Israelites were given special blessings, not because they were God's favorite people, but because they did a special work for the Lord.
As long as you recognize the order it went, Israel first, before the rest of us.

But because Israel has now rejected God, we are now saved first, before the nation (Romans 11)
 
Dec 11, 2020
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#30
I'm very surprised no one has brought up the point of difference between the LAW & the Commandments.
Jesus/Yahshua clearly stated if you love me you will keep my commandments.
We are clearly told we can't become his, w/o being adopted into his chosen nation, Israel.
Most people bring up the verse on the 2 love commandments. Read all of it & it clearly states that on these 2
hang all the law & the Prophets. Seems pretty clear to me, no interpretation needed.
What part of his commandments is so bad, most people want to fight it? Nine of the ten seem so simple to most.
The only one almost all people want to refute is the Sabbath. Why? Simply because Satan is the god of this world,
just as our Savior said & he has the power to change almost everything that our Father established.
He/Satan changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, Using Constantine & the Catholic church to do so.
Use every excuse of doctrine as you may, but the truth is still the truth & the great deceiver is alive & ruling this world.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#31
Was the law only given to Israel...

The Law was given exclusively to Israel
...or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him?
God never shut Gentiles out of His salvation.
Did Jesus change the law when He came?
Christ FULFILLED the Law and then established the New Covenant with His blood. Which made the Old covenant null and void. Abolished.
Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ?
Unless Jews receive Christ as both Lord and Savior, they remain lost.
Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
There is no such thing as "the symbolic Christ".
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
No. There is much can can be learned and applied from the Law.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#32
The Law was given exclusively to Israel

God never shut Gentiles out of His salvation.

Christ FULFILLED the Law and then established the New Covenant with His blood. Which made the Old covenant null and void. Abolished.

Unless Jews receive Christ as both Lord and Savior, they remain lost.

There is no such thing as "the symbolic Christ".

No. There is much can can be learned and applied from the Law.
I don't think any of this is right.

If the law is given exclusively to Israel, so we are then excluded from the law, then you are excluded from much of scripture for if you say the law is not for you, only for Israel it takes away all scriptures that guides how we are to live. You can tear out the beautiful 119th psalm to start this "law is given exclusively to Israel idea.

If the new covenant means that God took back all the old covenant and all of the promises God made to us with that, then all your blessings you have received through the life in Christ you have lived is taken away, you are blessed no longer. You have eternal life, but your earthly life is without a blessing.

And the God you speak of curses mankind so much that every man, including David and Moses who lived before Christ, is dead, wiped out, gone. Christ actually gave them salvation and forgiveness, but to you the symbolic Christ that did that for them is not so, you wiped that idea out. If God was as you say, God could decide to take back His Son who gives you salvation, for such a God has no love in Him.

I don't believe you understand the glories, holiness, wonders of the true God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#33
I don't think any of this is right. ... I don't believe you understand the glories, holiness, wonders of the true God.
Your response is rather offensive, since it is firstly making a judgment about myself personally, and secondly it is a blatant denial of Bible truth.

It is you who has been literally on a crusade since you joined this forum to ensure that Christians remain confused about the clear distinctions between the Old and New Covenants. Had God been satisfied with the Old Covenant He would not have sent Christ who ushered in the New Covenant.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#34
Your response is rather offensive, since it is firstly making a judgment about myself personally, and secondly it is a blatant denial of Bible truth.

It is you who has been literally on a crusade since you joined this forum to ensure that Christians remain confused about the clear distinctions between the Old and New Covenants. Had God been satisfied with the Old Covenant He would not have sent Christ who ushered in the New Covenant.
If I make any remarks that did not express my thanks to you for answering, or against you personally in any way, it was certainly unintentional, please receive my respect for you and love for you as a fellow Christian.

We can disagree. I base my believes on scripture only. I cannot see how it could be that God takes back the promises God made in the old covenant, explaining to us that there are blessings like the fruits of the spirit we are told of and curses, like if you steal you go to jail. That part of the old covenant I cannot say, and be truthful, has been taken away. I don't see how you can think that all the millions of people who lived before Christ were to die, unforgiven and dead in their sin. Just as you can state how you understand scripture, surely I can do the same without such as saying "blatant denial of bible truth". That statement is not telling us why and how you disagree, it is just being mean. I am so sorry you feel that my response to you was mean or against you. It was only meant as a presentation of what scripture tells us to try to reason with you.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#35
Christ FULFILLED the Law and then established the New Covenant with His blood. Which made the Old covenant null and void. Abolished.
The nation of Israel did not accept that New Covenant as of now, so it has not been established with them yet.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#36
What is the difference between "Israel only" and if something in ONLY for Israel, then gentiles are not Israel so it is not for them.

Of course, when the nations reject the Lord, until they accept Him they are outside of the training God is offering Israel. They are always welcomed into being God's children, but it is their choice.
the law is not the end of Christ, but Christ, the end of the law for righteousness.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#37
I'm very surprised no one has brought up the point of difference between the LAW & the Commandments.
Jesus/Yahshua clearly stated if you love me you will keep my commandments.
We are clearly told we can't become his, w/o being adopted into his chosen nation, Israel.
Most people bring up the verse on the 2 love commandments. Read all of it & it clearly states that on these 2
hang all the law & the Prophets. Seems pretty clear to me, no interpretation needed.
What part of his commandments is so bad, most people want to fight it? Nine of the ten seem so simple to most.
The only one almost all people want to refute is the Sabbath. Why? Simply because Satan is the god of this world,
just as our Savior said & he has the power to change almost everything that our Father established.
He/Satan changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, Using Constantine & the Catholic church to do so.
Use every excuse of doctrine as you may, but the truth is still the truth & the great deceiver is alive & ruling this world.
This is like using the instruction book to co strict or put together a new toy. Then after the toy is made. We go back to the very beginning and keep reading the instructions on how to build the toy.
the problem is, the toy is never used, it never fulfills its intended purpose. Whcih is never worked out

the law (including the commands) were made to point Israel to their messiah, it was used to prepair them for when he arrived, the commands would show them their utter sinfulness, and the rest would show God and who is is and what he would do to save them from the curse of not obeying every word. Because all have sinned and fall short of that standard

sadly, instead israel took the commands, and though as many do today they were gods instructions on how to live righteously, the ceremonies and offerings because just more instruction in how to live, not the price that needed to be paid for their sinfulness. So when messiah came, they did not recognize him, because they took the law out of co text. Added a bunch more laws which made them feel even more superior, and ended up crucifying their messiah because the schoolmaster given to teach them how sinful they were, was changed to a schoolmaster on how to live righteously

it’s sad, people in the church today want to make the same mistake, they want to return to the commands as a means of learning how to live righteously instead of looking to a new and better covenant which truly leads to righteous living. Something no part of the law of Moses could do

paul called the ten commands, which were written on stone, by the hand of God himself, so radiant that Moses face shone, the ministry of death. Those commands cursed all, who recieved them, because as Moses later demanded. Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word,

as James said, if a jew kept the whole law yet stumbled in one point, he was guilty, no hope, apart from the lamb of God

so why would you want to go back and not forward?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#38
I don't think any of this is right.

If the law is given exclusively to Israel, so we are then excluded from the law, then you are excluded from much of scripture for if you say the law is not for you, only for Israel it takes away all scriptures that guides how we are to live. You can tear out the beautiful 119th psalm to start this "law is given exclusively to Israel idea.

If the new covenant means that God took back all the old covenant and all of the promises God made to us with that, then all your blessings you have received through the life in Christ you have lived is taken away, you are blessed no longer. You have eternal life, but your earthly life is without a blessing.

And the God you speak of curses mankind so much that every man, including David and Moses who lived before Christ, is dead, wiped out, gone. Christ actually gave them salvation and forgiveness, but to you the symbolic Christ that did that for them is not so, you wiped that idea out. If God was as you say, God could decide to take back His Son who gives you salvation, for such a God has no love in Him.

I don't believe you understand the glories, holiness, wonders of the true God.
You are not listening to anyone
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#39
The nation of Israel did not accept that New Covenant as of now, so it has not been established with them yet.
But it has been established with the Church, so what's your point? Are you not aware that the Church is under the New Covenant?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#40
But it has been established with the Church, so what's your point? Are you not aware that the Church is under the New Covenant?
You regard the Body of Christ as either the House of Israel or the House of Judah? (Hebrews 8:8)