Song or Hymn?

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Nancyer

Guest
#1
#1
My son posed this question to me the other day and even asked a gentleman at our church, who didn't seem to have an answer.

What makes a song a hymn? I was surprised when I first began attending my church to be singing Morning Has Broken (hit in the 70's, remember?) one Sunday morning, and it was in our hymnal. Also, Turn Turn Turn, by The Hollies, which comes directly from Ecclesiastes.

Anyway, what's the difference between a song and a hymn? Can a song be very spiritual, all about God, and not be a hymn? Can a hymn be about anything other than God?

Curious. (btw, my favorite hymns are Amazing Grace, El Shadai, and How Great Thou Art)
 
T_Laurich

T_Laurich

Senior Member
#2
Mar 24, 2013
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#2
The internet tells me, That a song and hymn are very similar, however a song usually varies in topic were as a hymn will stay on one topic. A song usually is comprised of instruments and has a 'beat' were as a hymn is lyrical and only complemented by an organ.

(Paraphrased)

btw I have been wondering this too :p
 
A

allaboutlove

Senior Member
#3
Jun 11, 2013
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#3
If you added istrumentals to a hym would it then be a song?
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#4
#4
The distinction changes every time another denomination publishes a new "hymnal". Give me a historical year, I'll give you an opinion. Right now, 2013, my opinion is: hymn: any song used to praise God in congregation written before 1970 but after 1500AD, or any such song advocated by the Hymn Society of America written after 1970. Song: any other song used to praise God in congregation written after 2000 that has more than 8 distinct lines of poetic text. The third designation is chorus: Any song written after 1860 used to praise God in congregation with less than 8 lines of poetic text.

related question: how much can you change the KJV text of a psalm to make it rhyme and fit meter, before it ceseas to be a psalm and becomes a hymn? There still are few denominations arguing about this, although it has not been a big deal since about 1750.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#5
#5
allaboutlove said:
If you added istrumentals to a hym would it then be a song?
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Only in a very few denomiations. For the vast majority of Christianity, it makes no difference.
 
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Nancyer

Guest
#6
#6
Thanks, Ken, for the definition. I understand about time frames changing the way we define or explain things, but your 2013 definition makes sense to me. I didn't know there is a society dedicated to hymns. (there's probably a society dedicated to just about anything, anymore).

God bless,
 
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Nancyer

Guest
#8
#8
Cool, we'll check that out. (I love playing with the fonts....)
 
santuzza

santuzza

Senior Member
#9
Feb 12, 2013
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My definitions vary a bit. To me, a hymn is a piece that is strophic in structure -- meaning that is has verses where the meter pattern and melody (and harmony for that matter) do not change from verse to verse. A song is more "through composed" and does not have verses, per se. Most of the songs today have a structure of verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus (then chorus, chorus, chorus ad nauseum at times!). I agree with kenisyes definition of a chorus -- very short and repetitive.

When the work was written does not effect the type of piece in my mind. There are some VERY good contemporary hymns written by the Gettys or Stuart Townend (ie In Christ Alone, Speak O Lord).

The difference to me really is structure and NOT style.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#10
Apr 18, 2013
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In my own highly unmusical mind, there are only 2 types of Christian music.

Type #1
Anything that seems genuinely deep and meaningful.

Type #2
Anything that sounds like it was written by a 10 year old.


If you're 10, and I just offended you... YOU SHOULDN'T BE ON THIS SITE!
: )
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#13
#13
santuzza said:
My definitions vary a bit. To me, a hymn is a piece that is strophic in structure -- meaning that is has verses where the meter pattern and melody (and harmony for that matter) do not change from verse to verse. A song is more "through composed" and does not have verses, per se.
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Can I challenge you with a few transitional "standards". All are strophic, have verses with regular rhythm and melody. I classify all as praise songs, as I have never heard any used in a hymn context. All developed with either a praise team, a prayer meeting music ministry, or in the early days, a "guitar choir". Tell me if you think these are hymns. All exist with harmony arrangements for those who want them.

the dancing heart by The Cameron Family - YouTube one of the oldest prayer meeting songs I ever heard
Bible Songs for Children - God is so Good - YouTube never used it with children, always with adults
Sons Of God Mass For Young Americans James Thiem - YouTube the defining song of the Catholic "folk mass"
Alleluia Alleluia Give Thanks to the Risen Lord - YouTube probably the most used cross-over song from the Catholic folk mass
Days of Elijah - Paul Wilbur - YouTube one of the most famous of the transition songs from the 1990's to 2000's
Matt Redman - 10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord) +Lyrics - YouTube this is in my head because the praise team did it last week
 
santuzza

santuzza

Senior Member
#14
Feb 12, 2013
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#14
I would not classify all of these as hymns. The Dancing Heart definitely has a hymn structure -- just a different style than traditional hymnody (being southern gospel!). God is so Good is a song in my book -- it's a kids' piece and too simplistic to be classified as a hymn, even if it IS used in corporate worship (as it can be in a very effective way). The two guitar pieces are also within the structure of a hymn. Day of Elijah is NOT a hymn -- there is the big coda or what we in our worship use as a bridge (then we repeat the chorus again). 10,000 Reason is a modified hymn because the refrain is sung first, but so is the refrain of Lift High the Cross, so I would call them both modified hymns.

Now, I challenge you to listen to a couple pieces that I would most definitely call hymns even though they are contemporary in melody, harmony, rhythm and orchestration.

In Christ Alone - YouTube In Christ Alone by Keith Getty and Stuart Townend
How Deep the Father's Love for Us (w/ on-screen lyrics) - YouTube How Deep the Father's Love for Us by Stuart Townend
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#15
#15
My point in offerering you those, was to question the completeness of your definition. I actually chose a bad example of Days of Elijah, as Paul Wimber stole that coda from another song. The original is two verses and the chorus only. There is no bridge. All have strophic structure.

Both of yours are not only hymns, I believe if I were to put the hours necessary to do the research, they would turn up in old hymnals. The first shows a simple 8888D structure, and some of the phrasing of the text was cliched by 1900AD, like "pluck me from His hand" and "bursting forth in glorious day". The second, I think would press the young people to explain what is a "searing loss", or wounds can "mar the chosen" or exactly how "my mocking voice calls out against the scoffers", or how can gain from Christ's "repose". It is 7676D, and the harmonic and cadence style is typical early 19th century.

do you know the story of the "Happy Birthday Song"? Do you know why it's not in any movies since about 1992? Back in 1930 or so, the author adapted "Good morning to you" a free public domain song for "Happy Birthday to you". To protect the song from those who would set inappropriate lyrics, he copyrighted it, never intending to charge money. He died in about 1990. HIs sons inherited the copyright, and immediately insisted on outrageous fees for it ever to be used in a movie again. My point is, anyone can take an old hymn, claim he wrote it, and put it to modern instruments. The keys are text that modern young people cannot understand, perfect metrical scansion, and lack of syncopation.
 
santuzza

santuzza

Senior Member
#16
Feb 12, 2013
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#16
I seriously doubt the Gettys and Stuart Townend are using unoriginal material. I haven't put the hours of research into it, but the feel of all their hymns to me are very contemporary. And if they are unoriginal in any way, I'm sure it is completely accidental.

My point in all this is that contemporary pieces CAN be considered hymns. Perhaps my definition may seem a bit loose, but I prefer a more inclusive worship style that incorporates many different styles -- there's a lot of good contemporary music out there. And whether it's called a hymn or a song, it's good stuff to worship our Lord and Savior.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#17
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#17
Nancyer said:
My son posed this question to me the other day and even asked a gentleman at our church, who didn't seem to have an answer.

What makes a song a hymn? I was surprised when I first began attending my church to be singing Morning Has Broken (hit in the 70's, remember?) one Sunday morning, and it was in our hymnal. Also, Turn Turn Turn, by The Hollies, which comes directly from Ecclesiastes.

Anyway, what's the difference between a song and a hymn? Can a song be very spiritual, all about God, and not be a hymn? Can a hymn be about anything other than God?

Curious. (btw, my favorite hymns are Amazing Grace, El Shadai, and How Great Thou Art)
Click to expand...
I thought 'turn, turn, turn' was popularized by the Byrds but written by Dylan. I may be wrong, and am too lazy right now to google it.
 
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K

kenisyes

Guest
#18
#18
santuzza said:
I seriously doubt the Gettys and Stuart Townend are using unoriginal material. I haven't put the hours of research into it, but the feel of all their hymns to me are very contemporary. And if they are unoriginal in any way, I'm sure it is completely accidental.

My point in all this is that contemporary pieces CAN be considered hymns. Perhaps my definition may seem a bit loose, but I prefer a more inclusive worship style that incorporates many different styles -- there's a lot of good contemporary music out there. And whether it's called a hymn or a song, it's good stuff to worship our Lord and Savior.
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The research would be my problem if I choose to do it. It is impossible to prove the hymns did not exist prior to 1995 or whatever. I would need to find them in old hymnals to prove they did. It just seems so unlikely that someone would put in the time to learn to copy an ancient artistic style so closely, and then present the results as new material. Of course, it is a big Body of Christ, with a lot of different gifts out there.

I agree contemporary pieces can be considered hymns. Part of the reason I want precision is the ongoing argument (in some churches all out war) between the contemporary and traditional congregations. I live in such a city, and it is very real to me. I share your desire for the all inclusive worship style to develop, and see it coming in the younger churches, but believe it will have to wait another 20 years until a few more people die and their churches close. In the meantime, I prefer not to antagonize the situation any further, by alleging that "contemporary instruments belong with hymns". So to me, the historical separation can be maintained by creating the period of 1860-1970 with exceptions as late as today, where a piece can be "undecided", and leaving the issue of structure out of it for that period.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#19
#19
crossnote said:
I thought 'turn, turn, turn' was popularized by the Byrds but written by Dylan. I may be wrong, and am too lazy right now to google it.
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We used to sing it in church during the 1970's.

Secular artists finding inspiration for Scripture is hardly unprecedented. Sir Arthur Sullivan, composer of some of the greatest comic operas in the English language, made no secret of the fact that he always wanted to write for worship instead. God had other ideas, apparently, except for a very few compositions, including the stirring and famous "Onward Christian Soldiers".

Not to mention how "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" and "Jesus Christ Superstar" launched the careers of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.
 
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