Soul Sleeping? What does scripture say happens to us when we die.
- Thread starter massorite
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
Oh, but we are immortal now. The scriptures that teach about what the flesh is, and what the soul and spirit are, tell us this. The corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible.
Just look up those scriptures that refer to the immortal soul.
Just look up those scriptures that refer to the immortal soul.
-
1
- Show all
You have earned your soup on this thread.
-
1
- Show all
I think for generations now people have arrived at the conclusion they can pretty much justify anything using the scriptures as support. But is what they justify actually honest and true to what God said?
This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 36, number 4 (2013)
The full text of this article in PDF format can be obtained by clicking here
First, as the Bible makes clear, the soul is not the whole of a human being. The New Testament unambiguously communicates that the soul continues to have awareness though the body has died. As previously noted, in Luke 16, Jesus tells the parable of a rich man and a beggar who die physically yet experience conscious awareness in the intermediate state—a fact difficult to deny in that the rich man’s brothers are living and final judgment has not yet occurred. Not only so, but the Bible’s use of the word hades, without exception, refers to the transitional rather than the eternal state. Likewise, while being stoned in Acts 7, “Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was there giving approval to his death” (Acts 7:59–8:1). It is clear that while the body of Stephen died, the nonphysical aspect of his humanity continued to exist.
Furthermore, as is obvious from the account of Stephen, sleep is a common biblical metaphor for death of the body—in distinction from the soul. John 11 provides the clearest of examples. Here Jesus tells his disciples, “‘Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep but I am going there to wake him up.’ His disciples replied, ‘Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.’ Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’” (vv. 11–14). Similarly, in 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul says, “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory’” (vv. 51–54). Here, as in myriad other examples,4 the Bible speaks of the body asleep in death. Conversely, the Bible never speaks of the soul asleep in death.
Finally, if the soul did not continue in conscious awareness after the death of the body, it would be incongruent for the apostle Paul to desire to be away from the body in order to be at home with the Lord. Says Paul, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body” (Phil. 1:21–24). How could death be “better by far” than further fruitful ministry if it entails soul sleep? Paul iterates the same sentiment in a clarion call to the Corinthians: “We are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:6–10).
The point here, as elsewhere in the biblical text,5 is that far from soul sleep, to be with Christ is soul satisfaction. While Ecclesiastes 9:5–6 is adduced to the contrary, Solomon does not conclude that “the dead know nothing” under the Son, but the dead know nothing “under the sun.” When we die, “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7).
In short, soul sleep has nothing to commend it biblically. As the Bible makes clear, the soul continues to have consciousness apart from the body; sleep is a biblical metaphor for physical death; and conscious existence in the presence of the Lord during the intermediate state is something we may look forward to with eager anticipation.6—Hank Hanegraaff
Hank Hanegraaff is president of the Christian Research Institute and host of the Bible Answer Man broadcast heard daily throughout the United States and Canada via radio, satellite radio Sirius–XM 131, and the Internet (www.equip.org). Hank is the author of many books including AfterLife: What You Need to Know about Heaven, the Hereafter, and Near Death Experiences (Worthy Publishing, 2013).
NOTES and source
This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 36, number 4 (2013)
The full text of this article in PDF format can be obtained by clicking here
“Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection. The Bible repeatedly calls this intermediate state a sleep….The soul has no conscious existence apart from the body, and no Scripture indicates that at death the soul survives as a conscious entity.”
—Ministerial Association, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Seventh-day Adventists are well known for promoting the idea of soul sleep. From their perspective, the soul of a man is indistinguishable from the whole of a man. Thus, the soul of man cannot continue to exist consciously apart from the body.2 In making their case they lean heavily upon the book of Ecclesiastes—especially the words, “The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (9:53). Such passages, however, must be interpreted in light of the whole of Scripture, especially the New Testament. The magnifying glass through which we read the Law and the Prophets must ever remain in the hands of the New Testament writers.—Ministerial Association, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
First, as the Bible makes clear, the soul is not the whole of a human being. The New Testament unambiguously communicates that the soul continues to have awareness though the body has died. As previously noted, in Luke 16, Jesus tells the parable of a rich man and a beggar who die physically yet experience conscious awareness in the intermediate state—a fact difficult to deny in that the rich man’s brothers are living and final judgment has not yet occurred. Not only so, but the Bible’s use of the word hades, without exception, refers to the transitional rather than the eternal state. Likewise, while being stoned in Acts 7, “Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was there giving approval to his death” (Acts 7:59–8:1). It is clear that while the body of Stephen died, the nonphysical aspect of his humanity continued to exist.
Furthermore, as is obvious from the account of Stephen, sleep is a common biblical metaphor for death of the body—in distinction from the soul. John 11 provides the clearest of examples. Here Jesus tells his disciples, “‘Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep but I am going there to wake him up.’ His disciples replied, ‘Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.’ Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead’” (vv. 11–14). Similarly, in 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul says, “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory’” (vv. 51–54). Here, as in myriad other examples,4 the Bible speaks of the body asleep in death. Conversely, the Bible never speaks of the soul asleep in death.
Finally, if the soul did not continue in conscious awareness after the death of the body, it would be incongruent for the apostle Paul to desire to be away from the body in order to be at home with the Lord. Says Paul, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body” (Phil. 1:21–24). How could death be “better by far” than further fruitful ministry if it entails soul sleep? Paul iterates the same sentiment in a clarion call to the Corinthians: “We are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:6–10).
The point here, as elsewhere in the biblical text,5 is that far from soul sleep, to be with Christ is soul satisfaction. While Ecclesiastes 9:5–6 is adduced to the contrary, Solomon does not conclude that “the dead know nothing” under the Son, but the dead know nothing “under the sun.” When we die, “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7).
In short, soul sleep has nothing to commend it biblically. As the Bible makes clear, the soul continues to have consciousness apart from the body; sleep is a biblical metaphor for physical death; and conscious existence in the presence of the Lord during the intermediate state is something we may look forward to with eager anticipation.6—Hank Hanegraaff
Hank Hanegraaff is president of the Christian Research Institute and host of the Bible Answer Man broadcast heard daily throughout the United States and Canada via radio, satellite radio Sirius–XM 131, and the Internet (www.equip.org). Hank is the author of many books including AfterLife: What You Need to Know about Heaven, the Hereafter, and Near Death Experiences (Worthy Publishing, 2013).
NOTES and source
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."
"What must soon take place" are the events of those plagues of wrath and all related information, which are described from chapter 6-18. So Mr. Henegraaff would be saying that all of the things that God wanted to reveal to us in all of those chapters would just be exaggeration, opposed to God's literal unprecedented events of wrath. He is definitely NOT the Bible Answer Man! The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, along with the plagues which the two witnesses will bring, will be in fulfillment of the long prophesied "Day of the Lord." And I can guarantee you, that time period will not be filled with exaggeration.
If it wasn't for the fact that Christ himself stated that Lazarus was sleeping and that Christ was going to awaken him up I would not have even gone down that road.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
And that is not the only place where the state of the dead is described as being asleep and needing to be awoken or are awakened to rise from the grave. Here are a few more scriptures.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Don't take my word for it. Do the research on the words sleep, sleepeth, awake and slept. In Luke 8: 53 it says that folks laughed Christ to scorn because they knew the damsel was dead. But again Christ described her as being in a state of sleep.
In am just the paperboy, I didn't write the words. But it is my job to push and declare them.
"I can't find 'standing' in any one of 7 translations I've searched."
That's right and when you have a corrupted version of the bible you end up with corrupted doctrinal beliefs.
I know Ms . EleventhHour is studing from a corrupted bible because she quoted what is written in Luke 16:23.
I wouldn't even consider anything she has to say as long as she is studying from a corrupted bible because her bible version can't be trusted to be accurate and only Satan corrupts the Word of God. In doing so he is able to corrupt the doctrinal beliefs of those who read
study that corruption.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
And that is not the only place where the state of the dead is described as being asleep and needing to be awoken or are awakened to rise from the grave. Here are a few more scriptures.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Don't take my word for it. Do the research on the words sleep, sleepeth, awake and slept. In Luke 8: 53 it says that folks laughed Christ to scorn because they knew the damsel was dead. But again Christ described her as being in a state of sleep.
In am just the paperboy, I didn't write the words. But it is my job to push and declare them.
"I can't find 'standing' in any one of 7 translations I've searched."
That's right and when you have a corrupted version of the bible you end up with corrupted doctrinal beliefs.
I know Ms . EleventhHour is studing from a corrupted bible because she quoted what is written in Luke 16:23.
I wouldn't even consider anything she has to say as long as she is studying from a corrupted bible because her bible version can't be trusted to be accurate and only Satan corrupts the Word of God. In doing so he is able to corrupt the doctrinal beliefs of those who read
study that corruption.
I had to cut off part of this message to allow for my response.
I used to be a "soul sleep" guy as a member of an Adventist cult similar to Seventh Day Adventists.
Those who hold this position cannot make sense of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and remarks that Paul made regarding being in the presence of Christ after leaving the body. These are mentioned in 2 Cor 5:8 and Philippians 1:23-25.
Usually such individuals have a deficient, physical view of man's nature. In other words, they deny that man has a spiritual component that exists outside of the body. This also leads to views such as annihilationism.
However, their view was not shared by the apostle Paul. For instance, he says in 2 Cor 12:1-6 that he experienced a revelation from God where he was taken to the third heaven. This is the heaven of God's throne. In this revelation, he said he did not know if he was in the body or out of the body. Therefore, if Paul acknowledged that he could be conscious and out of the body, then the typical teaching of soul-sleep guys falls apart.
Additionally, in Revelation, the dead saints are said to be crying out for vengeance at God's throne. Their heads are gone, so they are not in their physical bodies, but they are still at God's throne crying out for vengeance. Therefore, it is possible to be out of the body and conscious.
The soul-sleep argument is convincing at the surface level, but it is not well-thought out, and it depends largely on a deficient view of man's nature. Man is a body-soul composite, and many of these guys simply deny this.
And, they deny that saved men have eternal life already. They don't have a resurrection body yet, but they have eternal life. Eternal life means that you have a life that cannot end, even at the point of death. The soul-sleep person would deny this, and claim that the person ceases to exist, in a sense.
By the way, the language of sleep applies to the appearance of the physical body. The dead person appears to be asleep, and often at rest. This is why the language of sleep is used.
The main takeaway from my perspective, though, is that those who believe in soul sleep often have a deficient understanding of man's nature. They deny that man is a body-spirit composite, in many cases.
I would question the person on their view on this, and also whether they come from an Adventist background. If so, they likely believe in annihilationism, too.
And, concerning the verses of the OT that they will use to support their views, it is true that the dead are cut off from the living, and are unable to affect those who are still alive. They are cut off in this sense. I believe that soul sleep people use verses that are intended to convey this meaning, to prove their soul-sleep theories. And, some are taken out of context. Ecclesiastes comes to mind. They are using the Preacher's words to teach doctrine that it wasn't meant to teach. The Preacher was talking about the futility of life apart from God. Ecclesiastes was also showing his depressed, frustrated state of mind when God was not in the picture.
Ecclesiastes is the main place that Adventists and other soul sleep people draw from, but it's not very meaningful exegesis because it doesn't consider the context of the Preacher's words and what he was going through, at that time.
By the way, I am not saying that the original poster is holding a view similar to the "soul sleep" of Adventists, but this is how I would answer them. It seems like his view is different.
I used to be a "soul sleep" guy as a member of an Adventist cult similar to Seventh Day Adventists.
Those who hold this position cannot make sense of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and remarks that Paul made regarding being in the presence of Christ after leaving the body. These are mentioned in 2 Cor 5:8 and Philippians 1:23-25.
Usually such individuals have a deficient, physical view of man's nature. In other words, they deny that man has a spiritual component that exists outside of the body. This also leads to views such as annihilationism.
However, their view was not shared by the apostle Paul. For instance, he says in 2 Cor 12:1-6 that he experienced a revelation from God where he was taken to the third heaven. This is the heaven of God's throne. In this revelation, he said he did not know if he was in the body or out of the body. Therefore, if Paul acknowledged that he could be conscious and out of the body, then the typical teaching of soul-sleep guys falls apart.
Additionally, in Revelation, the dead saints are said to be crying out for vengeance at God's throne. Their heads are gone, so they are not in their physical bodies, but they are still at God's throne crying out for vengeance. Therefore, it is possible to be out of the body and conscious.
The soul-sleep argument is convincing at the surface level, but it is not well-thought out, and it depends largely on a deficient view of man's nature. Man is a body-soul composite, and many of these guys simply deny this.
And, they deny that saved men have eternal life already. They don't have a resurrection body yet, but they have eternal life. Eternal life means that you have a life that cannot end, even at the point of death. The soul-sleep person would deny this, and claim that the person ceases to exist, in a sense.
By the way, the language of sleep applies to the appearance of the physical body. The dead person appears to be asleep, and often at rest. This is why the language of sleep is used.
The main takeaway from my perspective, though, is that those who believe in soul sleep often have a deficient understanding of man's nature. They deny that man is a body-spirit composite, in many cases.
I would question the person on their view on this, and also whether they come from an Adventist background. If so, they likely believe in annihilationism, too.
And, concerning the verses of the OT that they will use to support their views, it is true that the dead are cut off from the living, and are unable to affect those who are still alive. They are cut off in this sense. I believe that soul sleep people use verses that are intended to convey this meaning, to prove their soul-sleep theories. And, some are taken out of context. Ecclesiastes comes to mind. They are using the Preacher's words to teach doctrine that it wasn't meant to teach. The Preacher was talking about the futility of life apart from God. Ecclesiastes was also showing his depressed, frustrated state of mind when God was not in the picture.
Ecclesiastes is the main place that Adventists and other soul sleep people draw from, but it's not very meaningful exegesis because it doesn't consider the context of the Preacher's words and what he was going through, at that time.
By the way, I am not saying that the original poster is holding a view similar to the "soul sleep" of Adventists, but this is how I would answer them. It seems like his view is different.
Wow, I realize that you have been put off by the Adventist. Now you just bust in with your Calvinism bought hook, line and sinker. Do you not realize that the Protestant Reformation was still a spin-off of Roman Catholicism? Being finally allowed to read the scriptures themselves, the reformers set up a new system but still brought most of the counterfeit Christianity with them. They should have just completely started over. Now is the time for the daughters of the great harlot to "Come out of her" (see Rev. 18:4).
Regarding my ties to Adventist, there is none. If you read my three blogs "Coming to Jesus" you will see how God used Herbert Armstrong's radio broadcasts to draw me back to Him. Later I thought about joining that group but found them to exclusive and a little paranoid. Unlike you, I realized some of the things the Adventist movement uncovered might just be true.
The point I am making is that the Christianity passed to us in the Middle Ages is laced with the traditions of men with the influence of antichrist which started almost immediately (see 1 John 2:18). God started teaching me directly while driving my 18-wheeler. The hardest part learning the truth was to let go of my traditional teachings.
I believe we are in the last days where knowledge has increased according to Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Running to and fro with our jet planes.
I believe God is finally unsealing many prophecies. If you want to be part of this learning the truth you had better inspect the sources of your traditional dogma. The devil is very good at his job of offering the world his counterfeit Christ.
Regarding my ties to Adventist, there is none. If you read my three blogs "Coming to Jesus" you will see how God used Herbert Armstrong's radio broadcasts to draw me back to Him. Later I thought about joining that group but found them to exclusive and a little paranoid. Unlike you, I realized some of the things the Adventist movement uncovered might just be true.
The point I am making is that the Christianity passed to us in the Middle Ages is laced with the traditions of men with the influence of antichrist which started almost immediately (see 1 John 2:18). God started teaching me directly while driving my 18-wheeler. The hardest part learning the truth was to let go of my traditional teachings.
I believe we are in the last days where knowledge has increased according to Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Running to and fro with our jet planes.
I believe God is finally unsealing many prophecies. If you want to be part of this learning the truth you had better inspect the sources of your traditional dogma. The devil is very good at his job of offering the world his counterfeit Christ.
No I am not a Seventh Day Adventists and I have never been influenced by any doctrinal, indoctrination or denomination. I have spent that last 24 years researching scripture, looking up every single word of every verse single verse about every single doctrinal belief I have heard of. So all of the conclusions I have come to after questioning the truth of my conclusions and research them again to be sure of my conclusions.
I would post a picture of what a dead body looks like after just 4 days in the grave to show how bloated and discolored it would be with oozing red foamy liquid coming out of it's mouth, nose and such. just to show that the body isn't at all sleeping but rotting and stinking. But I believe the mod's would take the picture down in a heart beat because it looks so offensive.
LOL If you think a rotting and stinking body is a sleeping dead person your concept of soul sleeping has definitely been distorted.
The body begins to rot at the moment of death. But our soul and spirit live forever in hell of in heaven.
We know for a fact that Lazarus didn't look like that in the Bosom of Abraham. He wasn't bloated, green and have blood-containing foam oozing out of his mouth and ears. Why??? Because it was his soul and spirit that was in the Bosom of Abraham in the lower reaches/parts of the earth while his body was rotting in a tomb located above ground.
Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he STINKETH: for he hath been dead four days.
There is no way the body is doing anything but rotting, But the soul???? That is what goes to sleep and will not wake up until Christ comes back to raise us from the grave.
I would post a picture of what a dead body looks like after just 4 days in the grave to show how bloated and discolored it would be with oozing red foamy liquid coming out of it's mouth, nose and such. just to show that the body isn't at all sleeping but rotting and stinking. But I believe the mod's would take the picture down in a heart beat because it looks so offensive.
LOL If you think a rotting and stinking body is a sleeping dead person your concept of soul sleeping has definitely been distorted.
The body begins to rot at the moment of death. But our soul and spirit live forever in hell of in heaven.
- 24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.
- 3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.
- 8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.
- Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.
- 1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.
We know for a fact that Lazarus didn't look like that in the Bosom of Abraham. He wasn't bloated, green and have blood-containing foam oozing out of his mouth and ears. Why??? Because it was his soul and spirit that was in the Bosom of Abraham in the lower reaches/parts of the earth while his body was rotting in a tomb located above ground.
Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he STINKETH: for he hath been dead four days.
There is no way the body is doing anything but rotting, But the soul???? That is what goes to sleep and will not wake up until Christ comes back to raise us from the grave.
As I have said, the body has the appearance of sleeping.
By the way, the Scriptures affirm that the spirit returns back to the body of those who are resurrected.
Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
Therefore, man is a spirit-body union.
By the way, you still didn't answer my other refutations, including the verses I referred to.
Paul fully expected to be in the presence of Jesus upon his demise. Additionally, he indicated that he would not be with "them" - the believers - when he went to be with Christ.
Also, he did not know whether he was "in the body" or "in the spirit" when he experienced the revelation of being in the third heaven.
And, Lazarus was portrayed as being in "hell" in a conscious form, while his brothers had not made their decision. He wanted Lazarus to go back to their realm to tell them about the fate he was suffering.
Additionally, Revelation shows dead saints in heaven asking for vengeance against those who beheaded them.
How would these Scriptures align with your position?
As a soul-sleep guy, I would have done hermeneutical gymnastics to deny what Scripture clearly says..there is a conscious existence in the intermediate state between death and the resurrection. At some point in time, I became aware that my hermeneutical gymnastics were simply nonsense perpetuated by a cult who associated a conscious existence after death with paganism. In fact, it is what Christianity teaches.
By the way, the Scriptures affirm that the spirit returns back to the body of those who are resurrected.
Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
Therefore, man is a spirit-body union.
By the way, you still didn't answer my other refutations, including the verses I referred to.
Paul fully expected to be in the presence of Jesus upon his demise. Additionally, he indicated that he would not be with "them" - the believers - when he went to be with Christ.
Also, he did not know whether he was "in the body" or "in the spirit" when he experienced the revelation of being in the third heaven.
And, Lazarus was portrayed as being in "hell" in a conscious form, while his brothers had not made their decision. He wanted Lazarus to go back to their realm to tell them about the fate he was suffering.
Additionally, Revelation shows dead saints in heaven asking for vengeance against those who beheaded them.
How would these Scriptures align with your position?
As a soul-sleep guy, I would have done hermeneutical gymnastics to deny what Scripture clearly says..there is a conscious existence in the intermediate state between death and the resurrection. At some point in time, I became aware that my hermeneutical gymnastics were simply nonsense perpetuated by a cult who associated a conscious existence after death with paganism. In fact, it is what Christianity teaches.
By the way, making claims regarding the number of years someone has researched something, and their alleged independent verification, means nothing to me.
I've been a Christian for 35 years. I believed wrong teachings on this topic for the vast majority of those years. I am humble enough to acknowledge that.
Man, in his pridefulness and vanity, tends to think that he is the independent, impartial arbiter of truth. Once he has made his decision on some point of doctrine, he tends to hold onto that, and refuses to accept that he may be wrong.
This is because men are prideful. And, this doesn't seem to be limited to age. Younger men are very prideful, and so are older men.
I hope that God is able to correct my bad doctrine throughout all my life, and I am not blind to the fact that I could be wrong on some aspects.
And, this particular topic is one where I was wrong for many years.
But, telling me how many years you studied something isn't helpful. It is a claim to expert opinion that I do not acknowledge. I held the "soul sleep" view for 2/3 of my Christian life...I no longer hold it.
By denying it, I prove that I am able do divest myself of false beliefs despite the number of years I held the belief.
It is always fashionable in some circles to claim that you are the impartial arbiter of truth. Cult leaders make a habit of doing this. I actually consider church history in regards to a particular doctrine, and am hesitant to claim that I am in a position to pridefully correct church history.
This is not to say that church history is always correct, because I don't believe that. For instance, Roman Catholicism was wrong on justification by faith alone. However, I would always factor in my pridefulness before I challenged a doctrine that is well-established like the conscious disembodied state between death and the resurrection.
I've been a Christian for 35 years. I believed wrong teachings on this topic for the vast majority of those years. I am humble enough to acknowledge that.
Man, in his pridefulness and vanity, tends to think that he is the independent, impartial arbiter of truth. Once he has made his decision on some point of doctrine, he tends to hold onto that, and refuses to accept that he may be wrong.
This is because men are prideful. And, this doesn't seem to be limited to age. Younger men are very prideful, and so are older men.
I hope that God is able to correct my bad doctrine throughout all my life, and I am not blind to the fact that I could be wrong on some aspects.
And, this particular topic is one where I was wrong for many years.
But, telling me how many years you studied something isn't helpful. It is a claim to expert opinion that I do not acknowledge. I held the "soul sleep" view for 2/3 of my Christian life...I no longer hold it.
By denying it, I prove that I am able do divest myself of false beliefs despite the number of years I held the belief.
It is always fashionable in some circles to claim that you are the impartial arbiter of truth. Cult leaders make a habit of doing this. I actually consider church history in regards to a particular doctrine, and am hesitant to claim that I am in a position to pridefully correct church history.
This is not to say that church history is always correct, because I don't believe that. For instance, Roman Catholicism was wrong on justification by faith alone. However, I would always factor in my pridefulness before I challenged a doctrine that is well-established like the conscious disembodied state between death and the resurrection.
How is it that you can't discern Paul's words: 2 Cor. 12:2-4 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
Paul was putting distance between this person's experience and Paul's own reality. You keep saying it was Paul's vision: NO!
A parable.
Was Abel's blood really speaking to God from the ground (Gen. 4:10)? No, he was speaking from the past. God is not hindered by our time constraints. So, the saints under the alter could be from a future time. God tells us he calls the things that are not, as though they were (see Rom. 4:17). Is God lying? No, He is speaking the future.
such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."Paul was putting distance between this person's experience and Paul's own reality. You keep saying it was Paul's vision: NO!
A parable.
Was Abel's blood really speaking to God from the ground (Gen. 4:10)? No, he was speaking from the past. God is not hindered by our time constraints. So, the saints under the alter could be from a future time. God tells us he calls the things that are not, as though they were (see Rom. 4:17). Is God lying? No, He is speaking the future.
How is it that you can't discern Paul's words: 2 Cor. 12:2-4 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
Paul was putting distance between this person's experience and Paul's own reality. You keep saying it was Paul's vision: NO!
A parable.
Was Abel's blood really speaking to God from the ground (Gen. 4:10)? No, he was speaking from the past. God is not hindered by our time constraints. So, the saints under the alter could be from a future time. God tells us he calls the things that are not, as though they were (see Rom. 4:17). Is God lying? No, He is speaking the future.
such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."Paul was putting distance between this person's experience and Paul's own reality. You keep saying it was Paul's vision: NO!
A parable.
Was Abel's blood really speaking to God from the ground (Gen. 4:10)? No, he was speaking from the past. God is not hindered by our time constraints. So, the saints under the alter could be from a future time. God tells us he calls the things that are not, as though they were (see Rom. 4:17). Is God lying? No, He is speaking the future.
For instance, the first claim is, it makes a difference whether the man was Paul or not. I am convicted it was Paul, and he was speaking modestly about himself being given a great revelation. This is a red herring...in other words, you're tossing something out there which is irrelevant. The real thing that is relevant is that Paul did not know if the man (whether him or not) was experiencing this "in the body" or "out of the body". So, therefore, Paul believed that consciousness outside the body is possible, and this is usually what soul sleep people deny.
Regarding Abel's blood, that is irrelevant to Revelation. I would agree that Abels' blood was portrayed as crying out in a metaphorical sense. However, there are other references to saints who are in heaven in Revelation. And, it does not defeat the other Scriptures i mentioned.
Regarding Lazarus and the Rich Man, the claim that it was simply an inaccurate parable isn't reasonable. Do you think Jesus would use an inaccurate portrayal during the parable? "It's just a parable" is irrelevant. I think Jesus used accurate parables.
By the way, these are the same types of bogus explanations I used as an annihilationist and soul-sleep guy. They don't align with Scripture.
And, quite often the intention of the "soul sleep" crowd is to portray the alternate view as a sign that the evangelical Church is following Roman Catholic doctrines about the immortal soul. It is step one toward dragging someone into a cult. First they convince the person that their view of heaven or hell is inaccurate, and then they start convincing them of other errors.
That's what happened to me anyways. There are some things that are more difficult to understand, and are susceptible to manipulation by cultists. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but if I was a young believer, I'd keep that in mind.
What is soul sleep?
by Matt Slick
Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine as do most conditionalists (those who say that the wicked are judged and don't exist anymore). But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation. This means that after death a person ceases to exist. At the future resurrection, they maintain that the soul is made again. Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual. The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.
The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:
In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord. Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.
Luke 23:42–43 is the account of where Jesus was being crucified. Jesus speaks to the criminal on his right and says "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Jesus was saying that he and the criminal would be together in paradise. Some Respond to this and say that Jesus was emphasizing that he was speaking right then and there, "today." But, that position can only be held by those who presuppose a form of soul sleep. Of course, it was obvious that Jesus was speaking to him. But Jesus is saying to the criminal that he will be with Jesus in paradise today.
In addition when we look at the account of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, we clearly see Jesus using the imagery of consciousness after death. If soul sleep is true, what was Jesus doing relating the account of two individuals who were both conscious after their death?
In Revelation 6:10 we see the account of people being conscious after death and asking God, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” This is before the resurrection. Here gain we have another account of consciousness after physical death.
Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect. The soul continues on after death in a conscious state. The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.
by Matt Slick
Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine as do most conditionalists (those who say that the wicked are judged and don't exist anymore). But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation. This means that after death a person ceases to exist. At the future resurrection, they maintain that the soul is made again. Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual. The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.
The primary verses used to support soul sleep are found in Ecclesiastes:
- Eccl. 9:5, For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten."
- Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord. Furthermore, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.
Luke 23:42–43 is the account of where Jesus was being crucified. Jesus speaks to the criminal on his right and says "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Jesus was saying that he and the criminal would be together in paradise. Some Respond to this and say that Jesus was emphasizing that he was speaking right then and there, "today." But, that position can only be held by those who presuppose a form of soul sleep. Of course, it was obvious that Jesus was speaking to him. But Jesus is saying to the criminal that he will be with Jesus in paradise today.
In addition when we look at the account of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, we clearly see Jesus using the imagery of consciousness after death. If soul sleep is true, what was Jesus doing relating the account of two individuals who were both conscious after their death?
In Revelation 6:10 we see the account of people being conscious after death and asking God, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” This is before the resurrection. Here gain we have another account of consciousness after physical death.
Therefore, the doctrine of soul sleep is incorrect. The soul continues on after death in a conscious state. The wicked face the judgment of God, and the Christians will dwell in His presence.