Speaking in tongues

Noose · Oct 16, 2018

That is exactly what i'm saying and i believe Matt 7:21-23 is addressing. They believe that they do all these miracles (which they actually do) in the name of the Lord but it is a lie.

In this end times, what is asked of a believer is simple, humility/patience and perseverance even in times of trouble or unto death, not miracles or signs.

The reason these signs had to cease in the 1st century is satan is given authority over the world and he comes with similar displays of signs and wonders that serve to lie. There's no such thing as a genuine tongue here and a fake one there, a genuine healing here and a fake one there- how are people supposed to know?

shittim · Oct 16, 2018

I always feel the response of Holy Spirit what I pray in the prayer language Jesus died to make available to me.

notuptome · Oct 16, 2018

shittim said:

Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Deade · Oct 16, 2018

Noose said:

Noose, get you head out of the sand.

1 Cor. 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Paul said these three exist (remain) now. But when in glory we won't need faith and hope for we will be at one with God. Love will last forever. It seems you are attacking gifts some of us now have. Is this in love, this attack? If you don't have or want the gift why can't you leave it be. If it is really from God, you will have to answer Him for your attacks. Nuff said!

Noose · Oct 16, 2018

Deade said:

Maybe i misunderstood but i don't see anything that implies complete love only comes after resurrection. Both passages (1 Cor 13 & 1 John 4) are talking about being perfected in love here on earth.

1 Cor 13:
1If I speak in the tongues a of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, b but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 John 4:
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Deade · Oct 16, 2018

Endoscopy said:

What are you talking about. Is this the "Not By Works" thread? Has anyone here claimed that using the Gifts of the Spirit saved them? You are getting as bad as Dcon claiming that everyone doing anything for God is trying to get saved by doing it. You are a broken record: "You are saved by grace" - "You are saved by grace" - "You are saved by grace" - We know that and we agree.

Deade · Oct 16, 2018

Noose said:

Maybe i misunderstood but i don't see anything that implies complete love only comes after resurrection. Both passages (1 Cor 13 & 1 John 4) are talking about being perfected in love here on earth.

1 Cor 13:
1If I speak in the tongues a of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, b but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 John 4:
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

You get the broken record award also: These same verses were addressed in #2137 and #2166. We pointed out how these verses pointed to a completeness in the hereafter. Are you face to face with God? Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. Yet future, huh! (1 Cor. 13:12)

Are you complete in love and living sinlessly? (1 John 4:17) Not while you have flesh, you won't.

Noose · Oct 16, 2018

Deade said:

1 John 4:
11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

It is explained over and over and over. Again it is right there for you to see. Paul said when love is made complete in us, the childishness in us ceases, John has explained what perfect love is and i keep highlighting just in case you missed it.
I'll try to simplify it further for you; Love for one another is knowing God as we are known- how simple must it get?

How is love for one another only after resurrection?

Deade · Oct 16, 2018

Noose said:

1 John 4:
11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

It is explained over and over and over. Again it is right there for you to see. Paul said when love is made complete in us, the childishness in us ceases, John has explained what perfect love is and i keep highlighting just in case you missed it.
I'll try to simplify it further for you; Love for one another is knowing God as we are known- how simple must it get?

Your attacks are proof you are not complete in love. People of faith have gifts of faith and you cold heartedly denounce those gifts. What does that tell you?

Noose · Oct 16, 2018

Deade said:

Rev 3:19 Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.

I'm not denouncing gifts just like Jesus is not going to denounce gifts in:

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These deluded Christians are trying to play the gifts card but Jesus is not taking non of that and i won't take it either. You must discern the times we are living in.
Don't mistake these as attacks, i'm trying my best not to hurt anyone yet these things must be said.

And whoever told you resurrection is in the future must be given the award for best lie. Resurrection is now and is continuous.

Dan_473 · Oct 16, 2018

Noose said:

Rev 3:19 Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.

I'm not denouncing gifts just like Jesus is not going to denounce gifts in:

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These deluded Christians are trying to play the gifts card but Jesus is not taking non of that and i won't take it either. You must discern the times we are living in.
Don't mistake these as attacks, i'm trying my best not to hurt anyone yet these things must be said.

And whoever told you resurrection is in the future must be given the award for best lie. Resurrection is now and is continuous.

Please explain your thoughts on the resurrection, like do you mean that our physical bodies will not die if we are currently Resurrected?

Noose · Oct 17, 2018

Dan_473 said:

No, i mean, if a believer dies today, their soul is resurrected and caught up in heaven and heaven is no other place than the heart of a living believer here on earth (for this is where our Lord dwells in this new covenant). It simply means, the souls of the dead believers are immediately resurrected and they indwell the living believers. This is a continuous process until the end of age and this is what it means the dead rising first and being caught together with those that are alive.

Paul, twice mentions this; once, counts himself amongst those that are alive when the dead arise to be caught up together with him and others that are alive and in another place counts himself amongst the dead who shall rise and be caught up together with his 1st century listeners at Corinth.

1 Thess 4:
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

These are letters written to 1st century people (not 21st century) who read and believed what Paul told them. Paul's doctrine was that resurrection is a continuous event and not some major event in a distant future. Not only Paul, Peter also taught the same.

garee · Oct 17, 2018

Endoscopy said:

I am not sure what is they you are saying is left out? If God convicts a unbeliever (no faith) through His word . They simply say the as the rest of the believers that fall down and worship God knowing God is really among them.

It sounds like it is what was meant. Tongues God brining prophecy in other languages other than Hebrew is a sign against those who believe not (no faith) They make prophecy to no effect by the oral traditions of men called a law of the fathers.

Making a sound and calling it some sort of secret language of God as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit is one of those oral tradition that does make the word of God's prophecy without effect

.No sign gifts. We walk by the faith that comes from hearing prophecy (God's word)

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Endoscopy · Oct 17, 2018

garee said:

You quoted a single verse. There is a saying you can prove anything from the Bible. It is true when single verses are used. That is why it is important to keep verses in context with the section of scripture and also compare to other areas of scripture on the same issue. If you notice I highlighted a verse from the section of where you took the single verse that completely changes the perspective of that single verse you quoted. In fact there are verses that are statements from a person attacking the concept of God. Refutation coming later. There is King Saul going to visit a witch. What was said and happened there was very evil. Context, context, context!!!

Dan_473 · Oct 17, 2018

Noose said:

No, i mean, if a believer dies today, their soul is resurrected and caught up in heaven and heaven is no other place than the heart of a living believer here on earth (for this is where our Lord dwells in this new covenant). It simply means, the souls of the dead believers are immediately resurrected and they indwell the living believers. This is a continuous process until the end of age and this is what it means the dead rising first and being caught together with those that are alive.

Paul, twice mentions this; once, counts himself amongst those that are alive when the dead arise to be caught up together with him and others that are alive and in another place counts himself amongst the dead who shall rise and be caught up together with his 1st century listeners at Corinth.

1 Thess 4:
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

These are letters written to 1st century people (not 21st century) who read and believed what Paul told them. Paul's doctrine was that resurrection is a continuous event and not some major event in a distant future. Not only Paul, Peter also taught the same.

The Souls of other believers live inside of Believers today? Do they affect the thoughts and consciousness?

Does each believer today have all the souls of all the previous Believers inside them or just certain ones? like one believer might have the soul of Paul while another believer has the sole of someone who died in the 4th century?

Noose · Oct 17, 2018

Dan_473 said:

It is alluded to though not very clear:

Heb 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

And,

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

And,

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

The question is, how does Paul's (apostle's) death beneficial to their listeners?
These are not clear verses that show to what extent the saints influence the living believers. About 2 Peter 1, some have argued that Peter's effort before his death will ensure that his listeners will always remember, but no one can guarantee that especially after they die yet Peter sounds convinced that his listeners will remember everything because of his efforts- he also says that they (his listeners) were already established in those things he was teaching them even before his death and he still thought it was good to keep reminding them.

IMO, Peter is saying that his efforts go well beyond his death.

But one thing i know they do is judge together with the Lord. They judge the living.

It is very hard to look at it on an individual basis because in the spiritual realm, everything is just one. The joyful heavenly assembly is one and the church, even though is made of individual people, is one body in Christ.

Psalms 103 is a very interesting Psalm- David describes his innermost parts (soul) and it includes believers.

Endoscopy · Oct 17, 2018

Noose said:

It is alluded to though not very clear:

Heb 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

And,

2 Peter 1:12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

And,

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

The question is, how does Paul's (apostle's) death beneficial to their listeners?
These are not clear verses that show to what extent the saints influence the living believers. About 2 Peter 1, some have argued that Peter's effort before his death will ensure that his listeners will always remember, but no one can guarantee that especially after they die yet Peter sounds convinced that his listeners will remember everything because of his efforts- he also says that they (his listeners) were already established in those things he was teaching them even before his death and he still thought it was good to keep reminding them.

IMO, Peter is saying that his efforts go well beyond his death.

But one thing i know they do is judge together with the Lord. They judge the living.

It is very hard to look at it on an individual basis because in the spiritual realm, everything is just one. The joyful heavenly assembly is one and the church, even though is made of individual people, is one body in Christ.

Psalms 103 is a very interesting Psalm- David describes his innermost parts (soul) and it includes believers.

You are making a great leap that is contrary to the word of God. We are responsible for our actions. If we have others in us that goes away. What these sections of scripture are referring to is the memory about others and what they wrote not their memories.

garee · Oct 17, 2018

Endoscopy said:

It as to what you offered (bolded) does not chnge the perspective…. it cements it.

No sgn gifts . We walk by Christ's faith the unseen eternal .

You simply repeated your self. The verse I offered was the context. Tongues, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers(no faith)

If a unbeliever (one with no faith) comes in and hears the word of God (prophecy) from the mouth of God and God convicts them of sin .They will bow down and worship God with the rest of the believers who are given the faith of God needed to believe God not seen.

The foundation is in Isiah 28:11 .It was fulfilled in Acts 2

The sign of God mocking the Jew that would not hear the word of God. who now spoke in Acts giving the understanding to all the nations of the world and not Hebrew alone as before when the apostate Jew would have nothing to do with all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura). Sola scriptura( as it is written) was the enemy of those who refused to hearken to the word of God then as it is today of those who hold to the traditions of men as the higher authority making the word of God without effect.

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

garee · Oct 17, 2018

Endoscopy said:

I would agree . We do not need men seen to teach us .We are warned of those (antichrist's) who say we do need a man to teach us. We can plant the seed of God's word and water it like with Paul and Apollos with the doctrines of God . But if Christ does not cause the growth we will be like the still born .No spirit life.

No still born in the family of God.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Not until the apostles are formed in us. as some do puff up above the word of God.

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

The promise is that not only will he teach guide and comfort us but he will also bring to our memory the things he and not the apostles have taught us

The little word and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you is easily missed

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Noose · Oct 17, 2018

Endoscopy said:

It is said the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgement. If the Lord comes in your heart as you claim, where do these saints go?

You need to read Isaiah 26 and let me know what it is about. https://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/26.htm

But here is a small quote from Isa 26:

19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Q. Which rooms are these risen souls told to lock themselves? where are these rooms?

Everyone is responsible for their actions but there are those that watch us and execute judgement on us if we start going astray.

Isa 57:
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.

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