Spies in the Bible.

DesiredHaven · Feb 21, 2015

The harlot didnt tell the truth, it records what she said and it was not true.

If I said she told the truth (when she clearly didnt) that would make me a liar (and then I would have to be cast into the Lake of fire) right?

She said this...

Josh 2:3 And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.

Josh 2:4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

Josh 2:5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them.

That was not true

And I have no problem with her not telling the truth, she DID nothing "against the truth" as she did not harm the messengers of Joshua (the servant of God)

She was a harlot, who lied to protect the messengers of God and did so while still being an example of faith to us as well.

Thats fine if you want to say she did not lie, but I feel like I would be a liar (and bound to the Lake of fire even as you yourself pointed out) so to say she did not (when clearly she did).

I just dont see lying to the enemy (who is seeking your brothers death) as wrong.

Jason0047 · Feb 21, 2015

In fact, the whole point in being a spy involves deception on some level. Spies, even ones like James Bond fight to protect the safety and peace of his people or country. Spies are not vigilantes and nor are they out to serve their own interests. Spies deceive others about their whereabouts, their identity, and conversations so as to protect their people.

DesiredHaven · Feb 21, 2015

Spies and lies these can indeed go together.

Traitors would spill the beans to the other side (which is seeking your own sides harm).

Jason0047 · Feb 21, 2015

DesiredHaven said:

I don't see it as wrong, either. That is why Rahab didn't lie. She deceived as a part of the art of war. But she didn't lie to cover up her own sin and or her own embarrasment about something. As I said before. It is like taking a life. In war time, soldiers takes lives. This is not wrong if the war is justified by God and the people are evil and condemned for their sins. However, it is wrong to take a life out of selfish ambition, though. That would be called murder.

Jason0047 · Feb 21, 2015

DesiredHaven said:

Right, like with Judas.

DesiredHaven · Feb 21, 2015

She told a lie and was justified by faith.

You dont have to touch your brother to be a murderer, you only have to hate him, and thats also how you are made a liar in saying you love God (while hating your brother). I dont see Rahab doing that.

But she lied.

Jason0047 · Feb 21, 2015

As for the word "lie", I believe it is used as more of a broad meaming today. But back in the 1600's (Like with the KJV), I think the word "lie" and it's related words had a more narrow meaning.

So yes. You can say... "Spies and lies" and be grammatically correct by the world's standard of understanding.

But according to the 1600's when the KJV was written, I believe the word "lie" and it's related words did not mean that. So no, you can't say Rahab lied as in breaking God's 9th Commandment.

DesiredHaven · Feb 21, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Yeah, he was a traitor (defected) and disclosed the location of where our Lord was (to his death)

Judas told the truth (and did not lie) as to where they might find our Lord.

He was a truth teller in that doing but DID against the truth

DesiredHaven · Feb 21, 2015

Gen 18:15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

Who is telling the truth and who is lying here?

Jason0047 · Feb 21, 2015

Sarah lied and it was a sin. She lied out of embarrasment. Which is wrong. Rahab did not break the 9th Commandment. She deceived... yes. But this was a part of the art of war in protecting lives.

Also, see Post #27 again. I revised it. Thank you. And God bless you.

DesiredHaven · Feb 21, 2015

But notice, the harlot didnt lie, but the mother of us all did

Only when God is in the center of it is it ever considered a lie Ive noticed lol

God bless you as well

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

When it comes to protecting lives, deception and self defense (or taking lives) was acceptable. But if deceiving and taking life was done to cover a sin, to serve one's own selfish interests, or embarrassment, etc. then it is wrong.

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

In other words, we know that lying is a sin. For all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). So we have to conclude that deceiving or lying to protect lives is not considered as lying to God. To our verbage or terminology today, we can say it is lying. But to God, it is not lying. Lying or bearing false witness according to the 9th Commandment was in reference to deceiving to protect one's own self interests, to cover a sin, and or done out of embarrasment, etc. It was not in reference to protecting lives.

The only instance of where deception does not necessarily say if it protects life is when God sends certain wicked people a strong delusion that they should believe a lie. This is because these wicked people do not want the truth and they are comfortable with lies and deception. In other words, it is like with the Pharoah. God only hardened his already frozen heart. Pharoah's heart was not soft to begin with. He was a proud man. Just as those wicked people who choose to reject God are proud.

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

For we have to remember, God's thoughs are not our thoughts. Thoughts can sometimes be expressed as words. Meaning, sometimes God's words are not our words. In other words, God has a different vocabulary then us sometimes. Why? Well, it is just like with the Parables. Seeing and hearing they see, but yet they do not understand. For the mysteries of the Kingdom are not given to unbelievers or those who choose not to be a good Berean. For God's people have to study to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Here is my favorite spy story.

God's Undercover Agent

By Rev. Darren Edgington

As a young child, the Mission Impossible television programs tantalized me. I couldn’t wait to watch the next nail-biting episode. I can recall the introductory music, and can visualize the puff of smoke as the mysterious tape self-destructed in five seconds. There was something delightfully intriguing about the life of a secret agent.

Our best efforts to portray the mystery of espionage cannot ever supercede God’s story. The unveiling of God’s undercover agent makes the best episode of Mission Impossible quite trivial.

The superstar of God’s story is of course Jesus of Nazareth. Those who came into contact with him often wondered out loud, “What manner of man is this?” *He appeared ordinary. But in reality, he was far from it.

In many Mission Impossible episodes a spy would peel off a fake mask. *Beneath they were really someone else. Jesus’ identity is far more mysterious.

In the fullness of time the Bible declares that the eternal Son of God took to himself a complete human nature, not a mere mask. In the manger in Bethlehem was what appeared to be just another baby. But Jesus was more than meets the eye. *God and man – the perfect union of two natures in one person - now that is some mystery!

God’s secret agent veiled his unique identity throughout his life. He even spoke to the masses in parabolic forms of speech so that, “though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand” (Luke 8:10). His Father also participated in the cover-up, hiding things from the wise and intelligent (Luke 10:21).

Frequently after performing some jaw-dropping miracle, Jesus stated that his identity must remain a secret. He repeated this order at one critical juncture. He had drawn his disciples aside to inquire about their opinion regarding his identity. Peter correctly asserted that the Jesus was the long-expected Jewish Messiah, the Christ. It is noteworthy that Jesus immediately “warned them not to tell anyone about him” (Mark 8:30).

Put yourself in one of the disciple’s sandals for a moment. Can you imagine knowing with certainty that Jesus was the Christ that everyone had been waiting for, then not being able to tell anyone? *This is front-page news! Why must they be silent?

At that time Jesus began to unravel the purpose of his undercover operation, but only to the inner circle. His mission to Jerusalem requires a special task: “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this” (Mark 8:31-32).

Jesus sequestered the disciples on two more occasions and explained the details of God’s mysterious plan. It is obvious from the text that they remained in the dark.

Why was Jesus so careful to retain this undercover status?

The people wanted the messianic king to deliver them from Roman tyranny (and the disciples all wanted a prominent cabinet position!). The problem was that they had predetermined the nature of his mission. Jesus would not allow any man to dictate his role. He was God’s agent. He would not be deterred from God’s mission.

Jesus’ words in Mark 10:45 define why he came: “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

What the disciples failed to grasp is that the expected messianic Lion is also the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 – the Lamb of God who is pierced for our transgressions. The eternal Son went undercover so he could lay down his life on Calvary. *The ransom price for many had to be paid. *Prevailing misconceptions must not be allowed to keep him from fulfilling his mission.

After the resurrection and the Holy Spirit’s empowerment at Pentecost, the formerly confused disciples proclaimed Jesus’ identity and mission with vigor. And what was central in their message? Jesus Christ, and him crucified. No cross . . . no Christianity.

The undercover agent had a dual identity. The royal Lion is also the pierced Lamb. What an intriguing mystery!

Article Source:
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Reverend Eddington who wrote this article and has an affinity for spy entertainment coincidentally has the same name as the fictional character who was a double agent or spy for a certain group or organization on the TV show called Deep Space Nine.

KJV1611 · Feb 22, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Actually you told a lie. You did it cleverly though by adding "I believe"... but you still bore false witness in attempting to make others believe that a lie means something other than what the entire world knows a lie to be. Check out the etymology of lie. There was no narrower meaning in 1611. It has always meant to speak falsely or tell an untruth. Rahab lied.

lie (v.1)

"speak falsely, tell an untruth," late 12c., from Old English legan, ligan, earlier leogan "deceive, belie, betray" (class II strong verb; past tense leag, past participle logen), from Proto-Germanic *leugan (cognates: Old Norse ljuga, Danish lyve, Old Frisianliaga, Old Saxon and Old High German liogan, German lügen, Gothic liugan), from PIE root *leugh- "to tell a lie."

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

KJV1611 said:

No, I didn't lie little buddy. The word lie means to lie. This is true. I never said otherwise. We are led to this conclusion by reason and deduction. For we know words change with the passage of time. It is a logical deduction. For if what you say is true, then we would have a contradiction in the Bible. Unless you believe Jesus lied in who He was to certain people by making them think he was just human when in reality He was God. Or maybe you think God telling Joshua to set up an ambush whereby it involved deception was a lie. But nowhere will you find in the definition of the word "lie" and it's related words used in connection to the Biblical practice of deception during the art of war (So as to save lives) as actually being a lie. You know, not all things are not in a dictionary or etymology. Some things you just have to figure out for yourself by just thinking about things logically.

KJV1611 · Feb 22, 2015

Jason0047 said:

No, I didn't lie little buddy. The word lie means to lie. This is true. I never said otherwise. We are led to this conclusion by reason and deduction. For we know words change with the passage of time. It is a logical deduction. For if what you say is true, then we would have a contradiction in the Bible. Unless you believe Jesus lied in who He was to certain people by making them think he was just human when in reality He was God. Or maybe you think God telling Joshua to set up an ambush whereby it involved deception was a lie. But nowhere will you find in the definition of the word "lie" and it's related words used in connection to the Biblical practice of deception during the art of war (So as to save lives) as actually being a lie. You know, not all things are not in a dictionary or etymology. Some things you just have to figure out for yourself by just thinking about things logically.

Where exactly in the bible did Jesus lie by making people think he was just human?

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

KJV1611 said:

So you think everyone thought Jesus was God? Why didn't Jesus use the full weight of His power as God? I know the reason why, but I am asking you to prove that He didn't appear as all powerful being who couldn't be stopped. Nobody can stop God and there were many who didn't think and or even know that He was God.

Jason0047 · Feb 22, 2015

In other words, Jesus did not reveal Himself in all His glory and power as God. Jesus even told others not to tell anyone about his miracles.

Spies in the Bible.

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