Straw Man Walking

[SeaBass]

you would be a rich man. Because everyone who reads what you post KNOWS this is exactly what your preaching, the only one blind to this fact seems to be you.

So you are arguing that when one obeys God's commands he is attempting to earn his salvation?

 

[SeaBass]

When you gave examples of straw man arguments... errrr...
some of those propositions were illogical and self-contradictory.

When you make a self-contradictory claim,
and somebody points it out,
you don't get a pass by accusing the other person of creating a straw man.

If you start with an absurd proposition... well... it's still absurd.
You don't get a pass because you read about a fallacy on wikipedia,
and think you get to hide behind it whenever you say something self-contradictory.

When you state a proposition, you will have to stand behind it, and defend it.
If it's a bad proposition, or poorly stated... you don't get to blame your detractors.

Evidently you are denying that when I post one must do the work of obeying God's commands to be saved, NO ONE ON THIS FORUM EVER said I was trying to earn my salvation by doing those works. Or tried to twist it by saying I am trying to save myself by doing my own righteous works.

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass,

I'm tired and my last post may have come off wrong.
I apologize if it sounded rude.

My point is just that when we state a proposition,
if it is poorly stated, or in any way appears self-contradictory...
we have to expect the opposition to poke holes in it.
We don't always get to accuse them of a fallacy when they poke holes in a poorly stated proposition.

I saw nothing in my OP that was poorly stated or contradictory.

 

[SeaBass]

Question Would Noah have lived or died if he did NOT build the ark? Was Noah REQUIRED to build the ark to be saved? Or was Noah saved by saying the Magic words "I believe you Lord" to be saved or did Noah by faith build the ark to be saved?

Evidently to some, Noah was earning the salvation of his household by doing the obedient work in building the ark.

 

[SeaBass]

The problem is EG you talk out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you will say that obeying is PART of a saving faith BUT on the other hand you will accuse those that say that to obey goes hand in hand with saving faith.that they are trying to earn their salvation.

Amen, amen, amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are arguing that when one obeys God's commands he is attempting to earn his salvation?

No I am arguing when one obeys Gods command IN ORDER to GET SAVED, NOT LOSE SALVATION, they are attempting to earn salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

Lets continue with noah. Lets say after a month or two. Noah thinks he is falling behind, so he decides to work seven days, and ignors the sabaath day. So God going to come down and say, Welp noah, I have you a chance, But you sinned against me and did not obey my sabbath, So no use continuing, You are going to die like the rest of the sinners?

Lets get real. Eventually Noah is going to get wore out, because he is not taking the rest as he was commanded, This will cause him to have to take a break. And God will say, "See, if you did what I asked, you would not be in this situation, but now since you sinned, your suffering the results. What do you think of my command now? You going to stop having faith in me in the future, or learn to follow what I have guided you to do" (also knows as Gods chastening)

Yet people in here would make it known noah would be lost (they may not say it in this situation, but thats what they preach!)

Obfuscation, deal with the facts presented to you by SarahM777.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet this is what you plainly said earlier




Saving faith MUST have that component of obeying otherwise it is NOT SAVING FAITH. Slice it,dice it and put it through a blender,saving faith MUST DO or it's not saving faith.

See, you just took words which are easy to comprehend, and twisted them and made a faith based gospel a works based gospel.

When you SAY MUST, your trying to earn salvation.

Faith does not HAVE TO HAVE WORKS, it DOES HAVE WORKS.

that is a huge difference.

the first one is legalism (My salvation is based on my works)

the second one is faith based (My salvation was based on my faith, I trust God, so I will do as he says)

 

[SeaBass]

Does a saved man work or serve the Lord?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Can an unsaved man be saved while he continues to disobey God's commands?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Evidently to some, Noah was earning the salvation of his household by doing the obedient work in building the ark.

Nope

noah was saved the moment he trusted God

He built the ark because he had faith in God. if he did not have faith, he never would have built the ark.

see you have noah earning his salvation, not God giving it, Thus noah gets all the credit, God gets zero credit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obfuscation, deal with the facts presented to you by SarahM777.

facts?

that noah earned his salvation by building the ark?

You keep taking credit and trying to earn your salvations, you and sarah will both get something you do not like

I will keep Giving God the credit, for he saved me, when I could not save myself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can an unsaved man be saved while he continues to disobey God's commands?

thus, you have just made a strawman argument,

can an unsaved man still be saved....

and you said we were picking on you for all your strawmen and red herrings..

 

[SeaBass]

Noah was preserved by his faith.....it is that simple......and as EG pointed out he was deemed righteous in GOD's eyes before God even announced he would destroy the world by flood. It is obvious that you guys still fail to understand that the work done is a direct result of the faith one already possesses .....and the work itself does not save one SPIRITUALLY......When will you realize that physical preservation of LIFE is NOT the salvation of the spirit.........??????

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

BY FAITH Noah......MOVED with fear, PREPARED an ark to the saving of his house.....

No dead faith only here at all. Moving and preparing is not part of a dead faith only.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Saving faith MUST have that component of obeying otherwise it is NOT SAVING FAITH. Slice it,dice it and put it through a blender,saving faith MUST DO or it's not saving faith.

That's works based salvation any way you slice and dice it. If our salvation depends on doing the next right thing, they Christ died needlessly, because if we were able to do the next right thing, we would be capable of sinless living. We're not. A sinless man, Christ, had to pay the price for our sin that we could not pay -- death. But if we die, even to pay for our sins, we are eternally separated from God -- in other words, condemned. Not saved.

There is no way our "good works" can outweight our bad, yet you are demanding that we do nothing but "good works" in order to keep a salvation for which we on our own do not qualify. God's standard is 100% perfection. You can attempt to "dress up" your personal gospel by claiming you are saved by faith, but you negate that faith by mislabeling "good works" as "obedience." If "obedience" is being good, then it is "good works," a works-based salvation, a return to the Law and a denial of grace.

Call it whatever you want, through your gospel, you've abandoned Christ for the Law. You have become "uncircumcized" in the spirit, and trust in your own "next right thing doing" to be saved. Can't happen, Sarah. It is through Christ, and Christ alone, that we are saved. Our best works are as filthy rags. I'm sure you've heard the actual meaning behind Isaiah's words. Not pretty.

Neither are our very best, in comparison to Christ's standard. His blood does not make us better. It "only" makes us clean. Thanks be to God, that is more than enough.

Salvation is by faith through grace. Nothing + Christ = Salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

They don't listen as they are hung up on works.....it blows my mind how many times that the workers for salvation with take the physical and apply it to the spiritual.....

There is a physical preservation and a spiritual preservation and to make or take a scenario that resulted in a physical preservation and apply it to the salvation of the spirit is a fatal flaw that lacks cognitive reasoning.........

Noah was righteous in the eyes of the LORD because he was a man of FAITH........He was already deemed righteous and the fact that they try and equate the building of the ark as the cause of his righteousness proves they still fail to understand anything.......

Faith only with no moving no preparing = house not saved
Obedient faith with works in moving preparing = saved house.

You are hung upon Luther's faith only that you will not see the obedient work Noah did was to the saving of his house.


What verse says Noah was righteous in the eyes of God due to his "faith only"?
Would Noah still been "spiritually" saved anyway even if he refused to obey God's command to build the ark?

 

[SeaBass]

No I am arguing when one obeys Gods command IN ORDER to GET SAVED, NOT LOSE SALVATION, they are attempting to earn salvation.

If the works a Christian does is not earning him God's grace why would the works a lost man does before he is saved be earning God's grace?

 

[SeaBass]

Nope

noah was saved the moment he trusted God

He built the ark because he had faith in God. if he did not have faith, he never would have built the ark.

see you have noah earning his salvation, not God giving it, Thus noah gets all the credit, God gets zero credit.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house

Noah built the ark to the saving of his house not because his house was already saved from the flood.

 

[SarahM777]

That's works based salvation any way you slice and dice it. If our salvation depends on doing the next right thing, they Christ died needlessly, because if we were able to do the next right thing, we would be capable of sinless living. We're not. A sinless man, Christ, had to pay the price for our sin that we could not pay -- death. But if we die, even to pay for our sins, we are eternally separated from God -- in other words, condemned. Not saved.

There is no way our "good works" can outweight our bad, yet you are demanding that we do nothing but "good works" in order to keep a salvation for which we on our own do not qualify. God's standard is 100% perfection. You can attempt to "dress up" your personal gospel by claiming you are saved by faith, but you negate that faith by mislabeling "good works" as "obedience." If "obedience" is being good, then it is "good works," a works-based salvation, a return to the Law and a denial of grace.

Call it whatever you want, through your gospel, you've abandoned Christ for the Law. You have become "uncircumcized" in the spirit, and trust in your own "next right thing doing" to be saved. Can't happen, Sarah. It is through Christ, and Christ alone, that we are saved. Our best works are as filthy rags. I'm sure you've heard the actual meaning behind Isaiah's words. Not pretty.

Neither are our very best, in comparison to Christ's standard. His blood does not make us better. It "only" makes us clean. Thanks be to God, that is more than enough.

Salvation is by faith through grace. Nothing + Christ = Salvation.

So then one does not have to obey,if I take what you say on it's surface to it's logical conclusion then one can lie,cheat,steal,commit adultery and murder and still be saved.

I never said that our good works can out weigh our bad ones. What I plainly said was that obeying COMES OUT OF a saving faith. It is PART OF a saving faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house

Noah built the ark to the saving of his house not because his house was already saved from the flood.

noah was saved eternally the moment he first believed, jut as abraham was, he was accounted by God as righteous (saved) before he did one work.

why? He had faith in God.

Noah built the ark because he had faith in God.

Only if noah had zero faith would he not have built the ark.

the work was powered by faith. not faith powered by work..

 

[SeaBass]

So then one does not have to obey,if I take what you say on it's surface to it's logical conclusion then one can lie,cheat,steal,commit adultery and murder and still be saved.

Rom 2:6 salvation will be based upon one's WORKS and not based upon if he had faith only or not.