Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

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Nov 17, 2022
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#1
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
 
Nov 17, 2022
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#2
Also I’m sure the is has been asked a thousand times.. I’m new to Christian chat
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,862
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#3
Also I’m sure the is has been asked a thousand times.. I’m new to Christian chat
It REALLY surprises me that no one has answered you yet! I'm not the typical "Christian" because I don't call someone a Christian until they have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...and I believe that baptism is "for the remission of sins" as was started at God's sending by John the baptist (Mark 1:4 & Luke 3:3) and was continued in the new covenant with the addition of the name of Jesus per Luke 24:47 by Peter, etc in Acts 2:38. However, I will answer honestly and openly. I just wanted to get that said up front. :)

Calvanism is much discussed and in Reading certain scriptures it REALLY seems plausible. But if the believers also have no choice in the "loving" God, the idea of being forced to believe really starts to unravel. Forced love is not love.

Personally I don't know why people act as if works are bad. Perhaps works of the LAW don't produce life. But faith brings a new set of works with it. Works of FAITH...and faith is dead without them per James (and others).

Reply as you wish. You seem honest and genuine... and I hope to reply in kind.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,862
708
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#4
@smmartin0507
I guess that I should add that Jesus did lots of works. Peter did lots of works. Paul did lots of works. Others did lots of works. Works are a part of, and are caused by faith. They do not hinder faith. If you have faith you should have works also. The two do not conflict.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,205
398
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#5
All Israel that is saved is the remainder of the Gentiles.

Not All Israel that is saved is the remainder of the Israel.
 

Inquisitor

Active member
Mar 17, 2022
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#6
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
The words, 'faith' and 'works', have different meanings.

Faith means a complete trust in someone or something, faith is internal.

Works are external actions towards others and are based on that faith.

So the act of believing in the resurrection of Jesus cannot be a work, as it is not an external action.

Not sure if anyone has a pure freewill, free of all external influence, that is. All our decisions, choices, always have a bias.

I would prefer that divine love is the basis of God's grace towards us.

God is love.

So instead of the sovereign will of God being the primary reason for our election. I would understand God's grace as freely given to one and all, in God's deep love for His creation.
 

Inquisitor

Active member
Mar 17, 2022
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#7
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Here is an interesting paragraph from Romans 11.

The paragraph below is one of the reasons why I do not believe in Calvinism. The paragraph below illustrates that our election is conditional and dependent on our behavior.

Romans 11:20-23
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

A very strong warning from Paul, continue in God's grace or be grafted back out.

This is definitely not Calvinism.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
4,153
1,619
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#9
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism.
Maybe if you posted some verses and tell how you interpret them.

I'd avoid becoming a Calvinist for the same reason I'd avoid becoming a Wesleyan, Parhamite or anything else. It paints you into a corner and creates division in the body. I just study God's word and let it teach me.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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London
christianchat.com
#10
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Hi 0507 :)

There is another way

You can believe BIBLE predestination and election, they are glorious doctrines that will root and ground you Jesus forever. Fill you with joy.

Whom He foreknew He also predestined ... chose ... called to what? to be conformed to the image of His Son. Do you want to be like Jesus? then this doctrine is for YOU, rejoice, be glad.

It does not exclude anybody else from being saved.

God chose us in Christ before the world began to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace. Do you want to tell about Jesus? how wonderful He is? clap your hands and be happy, this scripture is for YOU.

It does not exclude one other person from being saved.

Predestination and election is unto the church, to be God's people in the earth, His body. A city set on the hill, to exclude everybody? no no a city that men and women who are lost, who walk in darkness, hungry in need of shelter can make their way toward.

One day after one his lectures when Jean Calvin took questions from his students, one stood up and asked "if God predestined and chose us, does this not mean He must have predestined and chosen everybody else to be damned?"

It threw Calvin, this is a true story.

He hesitated a very long time thinking how to answer. Slowly, reluctantly, he had to admit that it must be true.

Classic error.

When the bible is silent on a matter then we must remain silent, we must seek God earnestly and not make an assumption on the hoof. A new doctrine was born. Double predestination. It has only ever been an assumption. Nowhere in the bible.

All the other horrors of Calvin like Limited Atonement and Total Depravity are brought in to shore up Double Predestination.

Arminians are 100 times worse .

They THROW OUT Predestination and Election. WHY? because they also think it means God predestined men unto damnation. They jump to the very same conclusion. So they not only throw out Calvin they also throw out the bible. And they create a new horror doctrine of their own, the doctrine of Human freewill.

Human Freewill insists that in order to be saved a person must hear the gospel, must believe the gospel and must DECIDE ... CHOOSE. else they are damned.

They therefore consign BILLIONS of human souls to hell because we never reached them with the gospel. That's worse than Calvin.

Come the bible way. BELIEVE God foreknew YOU and predestined you and chose you to be like Jesus and to be His witness in the world.

Leave all else to God's immeasurable mercy and grace.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,977
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#11
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
The Bible makes it clear Faith is not a Work.. So Believing Jesus and trusting in His atonement is not a work..

Also simply because God foreknows who will accept His will and who will reject His will does not mean that God creates one person to be saved having no free will to reject God and another person He creates with no other option but to burn in the lake of fire because God prevents then from having the free will to accept His salvation..

Gods foreknowledge does not mean God forces believers to believe and forces dis-believers to disbelieve.. Calvinism is a misinterpretation of scripture..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#12
Also I’m sure the is has been asked a thousand times.. I’m new to Christian chat
Yes indeed.. And you will find calvinists who will replay to your post on the issue..
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
977
502
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#13
I don't call someone a Christian until they have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues
Thank God Jesus’ standards aren’t so trivial.

@smmartin0507 welcome to CC. Calvinism is one of the most divisive issues in Christendom. I hate Calvinism yet I cannot deny what Scripture says about the elect, and I struggle with it.

My advice to you is to remain steadfast in your readings, your prayers and your love for God and neighbor, otherwise you may end up walking through life with a divisive, pharisaic attitude like the individual quoted above.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,958
1,466
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#14
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Welcome. thats how it is. the bible teaches its God who saves, who grants repentance who gives faith who gives life. this is how God gets all the glory and no one can boast that they were smart enough to believe while that idiot next door didnt figure it out.

embrace the truth, don't reject it. thats my advice. the bible doesn't teach a human will that isnt bound by sin. we all have a will and use it freely. sometimes you read something from the bible that seems like God is reacting to it, but then you read another verse on the subject and notice hey, it was all predestined anyway.

Psalms 105:24-25 And the LORD made His people very fruitful, more numerous than their foes, whose hearts He turned to hate His people, to conspire against His servants.

here is another example. from free willism perspective you just would say see those evil egyptians hated jews. they made the wrong choice oh how God would of wanted to save those egyptians. but then you read and it says God turned their hearts to hate His people(israel). so clearly, God did not want to save these egyptians.

another lie you will hear from the free will crowd is how "pharaoh hardened his heart first" which is not what the bible teaches, before the entire question is asked by moses to pharaoh, God already tells moses go and talk to pharaoh and i will harden his heart:

Exodus 7:2-3 You are to speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,958
1,466
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#15
It REALLY surprises me that no one has answered you yet! I'm not the typical "Christian" because I don't call someone a Christian until they have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...and I believe that baptism is "for the remission of sins" as was started at God's sending by John the baptist (Mark 1:4 & Luke 3:3) and was continued in the new covenant with the addition of the name of Jesus per Luke 24:47 by Peter, etc in Acts 2:38. However, I will answer honestly and openly. I just wanted to get that said up front. :)

Calvanism is much discussed and in Reading certain scriptures it REALLY seems plausible. But if the believers also have no choice in the "loving" God, the idea of being forced to believe really starts to unravel. Forced love is not love.

Personally I don't know why people act as if works are bad. Perhaps works of the LAW don't produce life. But faith brings a new set of works with it. Works of FAITH...and faith is dead without them per James (and others).

Reply as you wish. You seem honest and genuine... and I hope to reply in kind.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
aside from the heresy of needing to speak in tongues to be saved, thats a fight for another day. i will point out that its not forced love.

people have a heart of stone, God gives them a heart of flesh by which they WILLINGLY believe and love. its not forced love. complete misrepresentation and attempt to pull the emotional strings. how shameful
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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#16
aside from the heresy of needing to speak in tongues to be saved, thats a fight for another day. i will point out that its not forced love.

people have a heart of stone, God gives them a heart of flesh by which they WILLINGLY believe and love. its not forced love. complete misrepresentation and attempt to pull the emotional strings. how shameful
Applause 👏
 
Nov 12, 2021
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#17
Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work?
To answer your question NO ---Faith is not a Work ---Faith comes From God alone and is a free gift ---you cannot work to get Faith -----

There are 3 kinds of Faith ---and all 3 are a free Gift from God -----but only one Faith produces ---the other 2 are non producing Faiths

And Calvinism ----relies on Grace alone to be Saved ---and that goes against Scripture -----Scripture says --Grace comes THROUGH FAITH -----Faith is your Foundation ----Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve and He gives it freely through Faith

So Grace makes available Salvation to us ---our Faith which comes by way of Hearing the Word --not any works that we do --- ----Jesus is the Word ----so the Word INBIRTHS Faith in us ---there is no work for us to do to Believe ----it is a free gift and comes to us by hearing the Word


read all here ---

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people

The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice –


John Calvin took Romans 8:29-30 ---and made his on doctrine out of the word Predestined ------and said that God already has chosen the people He will save and the rest of the people who are not chosen by Him will go to Hell ----that is truly False doctrine -----that is not what this scripture below is saying at all ------God Predestined all His creation before the beginning of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son BY ADOPTION ---that is we have free choice to be adopted back into God's righteousness or not ------

this is the Scripture -----

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Calvinist believe that it is by Grace that God has picked certain people to be saved ---Faith to them is a work ----which is False Doctrine ----Faith is a free Gift ---you cannot earn Faith -------

Faith is your title deed to all God's promises -----including Salvation -----God's Grace makes available ----God's Faith receives what His grace has made available -----


Hebrews 11:1 AMP
Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their realityfaith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
AMP: Amplified Bible


So I say -----smmartin0507, ----
Be careful who you Listen to ---know your Scriptures so you know what God's Word really says and do your research ---there are many False prophets preaching God's word and twisting it to suit their own agenda ------Calvin is just one ----there are many more ------get Wisdom but Get Understanding

 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,484
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#18
Most Everyone is against Calvinism. But if you read the bible for yourself the precepts of Calvinism are un-deniable. Maybe not the way some people teach it, but the basic principles of Calvinism are all scriptural.


Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Why are some Saved by listening to the Preacher and some are not?


Because God Chooses. All throughout the Bible it is God Choosing His People and separating them from everyone else.


All the things required for Salvation are the Gift of God. It is God who Draws His People to Himself.


John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,484
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113
#19
Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work?
It would contradict scripture if your choice to believe is what CAUSED Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
Nov 12, 2021
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#20
All the things required for Salvation are the Gift of God. It is God who Draws His People to Himself.[/QUOTE

This statement is true ---God has to open the person heart to receive the message ------which inbirths the right Faith ------

Some people adhear to that Draw and some reject it -----it is a personal choice to choose to accept or reject God's pulling on your heart ------Once God draws the person they have the free will to accept or reject ------God does not force anyone to receive His free gift of Salvation ------

We choose where we want to reside when we die ---Not God ----just clarifying that --------