Stumbling over Christ

[Grandpa]

To tell you the truth.....(..please don't tell anyone else) I stumble over Jesus everyday.
I can't seem to be able to walk in the spirit 24/7.
I feel like such a Peter at times.
It's not something I'm proud of or take lightly

Yes, but you are not promoting a continued stumbling and then teaching, in detail, how to continue stumbling.

You at least know the difference between stumbling and obedience.

Now lets ask the question 'Is obedience to Christ and obedience to our understanding of the law the same thing?'

Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


No. It sure isn't the same thing. Especially since the Lord Jesus Christ gives us REST from that way of trying to attain righteousness.

 

[pottersclay]

Yes, but you are not promoting a continued stumbling and then teaching, in detail, how to continue stumbling.

You at least know the difference between stumbling and obedience.

Now lets ask the question 'Is obedience to Christ and obedience to our understanding of the law the same thing?'

Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


No. It sure isn't the same thing. Especially since the Lord Jesus Christ gives us REST from that way of trying to attain righteousness.

Trusting in the Lord's finishing work is one of the hardest things we are asked to do. We live in a time frame of immediate results....guess what that doesn't apply saints.
In the book of job...job is asked by God ...( Would you deny me to make your own self rightous?
This is stuck in my heart and head for years.
I fail in more ways than I can write but but like Paul says ...keep pressing on.
I am so thankful that my rightousness is in Christ for he is the only one that can maintain it.
Many times we lean on our own understanding but fail to admit it.
We more times than not create our own problems out of our own pride issues or fears.

Let go.....let God.

 

[mailmandan]

We have been warned of many false christs leading many people astray Mat 24, and following the 'sunday-resurrected jesus is that deception preached by all/most christian denominations. There has been a faithful Servant of God (LGF) who sounded that warning and was 'banned for his effort....that is how they treat those who try to help them

Following the Sunday resurrected Jesus is deception? Sounds like SDA propaganda.

Faithful servants of God do not teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. - http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml

That is what your "alleged" faithful servant of God taught and he also perverted the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." He was not hear to help, but to deceive.

 

[garee]

the 'stumbling stone' prophecy comes from Isaiah chapter 28.

Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,​

and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,​

which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!​

(Isaiah 28:1) ​

the house of Ephraim stumbles:

These also reel with wine​

and stagger with strong drink;​

the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,​

they are swallowed by wine,​

they stagger with strong drink,​

they reel in vision,​

they stumble in giving judgment.​

For all tables are full of filthy vomit,​

with no space left.​

(Isaiah 28:7-8)​

as drunk, and proud, stumbling specifically in judgement.
next mention of stumbling here:

For by people of strange lips​

and with a foreign tongue​

the LORD will speak to this people,​

to whom he has said,​

“This is rest;​

give rest to the weary;​

and this is repose”;​

yet they would not hear.​

And the word of the LORD will be to them​

precept upon precept, precept upon precept,​

line upon line, line upon line,​

here a little, there a little,​

that they may go, and fall backward,​

and be broken, and snared, and taken. ​

(Isaiah 28:11-13) ​

because He showed them His rest, and they would not, and they would not give it to the weary, the word to them is precept upon precept, in order that they stumble and fall backward. line upon line is to Ephraim's destruction.

Ephraim makes a lie their refuge ((what lie?)):

You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,​

with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.​

When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,​

it cannot touch us,​

for we have made a lie our refuge​

and falsehood our hiding place."​

(Isaiah 28:15)​

therefore God lays the foundation stone, and makes righteousness and justice the measure:

So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:​

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,​

a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;​

the one who relies on it​

will never be stricken with panic.​

I will make justice the measuring line​

and righteousness the plumb line;​

hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,​

and water will overflow your hiding place.​

(Isaiah 28:16-17)​

causing them to stumble, day after day, being beaten down:

Your covenant with death will be annulled;​

your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.​

When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,​

you will be beaten down by it.​

As often as it comes it will carry you away;​

morning after morning, by day and by night,​

it will sweep through.​

(Isaiah 28:18-19)​

i am thinking, wow, is it good to be called Ephraim, in light of this?
what is this refuge Ephraim makes for itself?
"the lie" ?
a covenant with death, a treaty with the grave?

The refuge is they refused to hear God .No faith coming from God

yet they would not hear.And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept,line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little,

But rather the unbelieving Jew chased after the oral traditions of men seen that they called fathers as a law of men. Christ called them a brood of vipers . This means they had no faith, a froward nation.

The faith of the Spirit of Christ which reveals the unseen spiritual world. they in effect stumbled over the unseen invisible things of God as those which he does reveal in parables hid from the lost.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews "a stumblingblock", and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Corintian 1:22-23

The unbelieving Jew (no faith ) in effect said to Christ show us a miracle and then we will believe (walking by sight) The Greek reasoned after their own selves the philosophies of men as a intellectual gospel.

 

[posthuman]

The refuge is they refused to hear God .No faith coming from God

yet they would not hear.And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept,line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little,

But rather the unbelieving Jew chased after the oral traditions of men seen that they called fathers as a law of men.

it does not say 'the oral traditions of men' or 'a law of men' -- it says the word of the LORD

​

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. ​

(Isaiah 28:13)​

​

??

where in this chapter do we find extra-scriptural oral traditions of men being mentioned?
it says they made a treaty with the grave, a covenant with death ((vv. 15, 18)) which they put their hope in. what is this?

 

[mailmandan]

But today the battle has entered into the church since it is filled with "unbelievers" who claim to be saved by what they term "faith." But they stumble over Christ.

Unbelievers stumble over Christ because they refuse to believe in Him for salvation. In Romans 10:1-4, we read: 1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.

Speaking of unbelievers who claim to be saved by what they term "faith" but it's really faith (their version of faith) + works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Picking up our cross daily to follow him, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments, Doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES this list of works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

If we claim to love Jesus then we should obey Him.

Absolutely, yet we must not put the cart before the horse. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over)His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9), the the apostle Paul goes on to say in verse 10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Notice this...

John 14 :15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we love Jesus and also that we are born of God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

In the above verse in Peter...believing Jesus means obeying Jesus. Disobedience is unbelief.

Believing in Jesus means we are trusting in Him for salvation (John 3:18; Acts 10:43). Obeying Jesus after we have been saved through faith is works. Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief and refusing to believe the gospel is an act of disobedience (Romans 10:16).

If we say we believe God and then proceed to disobey Him then our belief is in our own minds.

If we believe God then we will believe what He says in John 6:40. If we claim to have faith but have no resulting evidential works, then we have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith (James 2:14-24).

So then a lot of modern "Christians" are actually functional unbelievers.

That is an oxymoron.

Now watch who likes and dislikes this post. You will see how the word of God divides by whether we stumble over Christ or not.

Unbelievers, including make believers stumble over Christ.

 

[garee]

it does not say 'the oral traditions of men' or 'a law of men' -- it says the word of the LORD

​

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. ​

(Isaiah 28:13)​

​

??

where in this chapter do we find extra-scriptural oral traditions of men being mentioned?
it says they made a treaty with the grave, a covenant with death ((vv. 15, 18)) which they put their hope in. what is this?

Its an oral tradition of men as that which makes the word of God without effect. In that way no man can serve two teaching authorities. (1) The things of God, and (2) those of men . They were mocking God with their oral traditions so he mocked them brining new prophecy in all the languages of the world. No longer just the Hebrew tongue.

They fell backward as a indication that he was judging them because they refused to hear His prophecy but rather choosing it of men....false prophecy.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[posthuman]

Its an oral tradition of men as that which makes the word of God without effect. In that way no man can serve two teaching authorities. (1) The things of God, and (2) those of men . They were mocking God with their oral traditions so he mocked them brining new prophecy in all the languages of the world. No longer just the Hebrew tongue.

They fell backward as a indication that he was judging them because they refused to hear His prophecy but rather choosing it of men....false prophecy.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

what about interpreting Isaiah 28 by what Isaiah 28 says instead of by Mark 7, which came what, 6 or 800 years later?

i think it's pretty sketchy to try to make this about 1st century Phariseeism, especially since the things you are saying are no where in this text. what in this chapter says they were adding their own human rules to Moses Law? nothing. you can't just slap Mark 7:13 onto the whole Bible dude, please don't be blind.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

To tell you the truth.....(..please don't tell anyone else) I stumble over Jesus everyday.
I can't seem to be able to walk in the spirit 24/7.
I feel like such a Peter at times.
It's not something I'm proud of or take lightly

You r post shows that you are walking in truth. You have an honest assessment of yourself. However, you also have a misunderstanding. To walk in the truth is not stumbling over Jesus. It is walking in the truth. To admit the truth does not mean to be perfect. The two men in the temple prayed. One thanked God he was not like other men. He cited all he did outwardly. He did not have an honest assessment of himself or his heart. He walked in darkness. The other had an honest assessment of himself. He walked in the light of truth.

To walk in the light is not to be perfect. It is to be honest. The next step is to pray for what you lack.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

the 'stumbling stone' prophecy comes from Isaiah chapter 28.

Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,​

and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,​

which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!
(Isaiah 28:1) ​

the house of Ephraim stumbles:

These also reel with wine​

and stagger with strong drink;​

the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,​

they are swallowed by wine,​

they stagger with strong drink,​

they reel in vision,​

they stumble in giving judgment.​

For all tables are full of filthy vomit,​

with no space left.
(Isaiah 28:7-8)​

as drunk, and proud, stumbling specifically in judgement.
next mention of stumbling here:

For by people of strange lips​

and with a foreign tongue​

the LORD will speak to this people,​

to whom he has said,​

“This is rest;​

give rest to the weary;​

and this is repose”;​

yet they would not hear.​

And the word of the LORD will be to them​

precept upon precept, precept upon precept,​

line upon line, line upon line,​

here a little, there a little,​

that they may go, and fall backward,​

and be broken, and snared, and taken. ​

(Isaiah 28:11-13) ​

because He showed them His rest, and they would not, and they would not give it to the weary, the word to them is precept upon precept, in order that they stumble and fall backward. line upon line is to Ephraim's destruction.

Ephraim makes a lie their refuge ((what lie?)):

You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,​

with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.​

When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,​

it cannot touch us,​

for we have made a lie our refuge​

and falsehood our hiding place."​

(Isaiah 28:15)​

therefore God lays the foundation stone, and makes righteousness and justice the measure:

So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:​

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,​

a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;​

the one who relies on it​

will never be stricken with panic.​

I will make justice the measuring line​

and righteousness the plumb line;​

hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,​

and water will overflow your hiding place.​

(Isaiah 28:16-17)​

causing them to stumble, day after day, being beaten down:

Your covenant with death will be annulled;​

your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.​

When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,​

you will be beaten down by it.​

As often as it comes it will carry you away;​

morning after morning, by day and by night,​

it will sweep through.​

(Isaiah 28:18-19)​

i am thinking, wow, is it good to be called Ephraim, in light of this?
what is this refuge Ephraim makes for itself?
"the lie" ?
a covenant with death, a treaty with the grave?

Ephraim

Chilling. Considering that we are ephraim (according to the poster)...we are the children of the promise, that I know. But have we made a deal to cheat death that will not stand? When He returns, will there be a lot of shocked faces from men who were taught they only have to believe they will live forever? Or will they have to answer for believing they will live forever but disregarding everything ELSE Jesus said as optional?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Love is not a strawman. Love is commanded by God. If we don't love then we stumble over Jesus Christ who came to Earth because of love.

But we also have to leave room for growth in virtue, which is to say: growth in humility, because all other virtues increase in us in proportion to growth in humility.

 

[pottersclay]

You r post shows that you are walking in truth. You have an honest assessment of yourself. However, you also have a misunderstanding. To walk in the truth is not stumbling over Jesus. It is walking in the truth. To admit the truth does not mean to be perfect. The two men in the temple prayed. One thanked God he was not like other men. He cited all he did outwardly. He did not have an honest assessment of himself or his heart. He walked in darkness. The other had an honest assessment of himself. He walked in the light of truth.

To walk in the light is not to be perfect. It is to be honest. The next step is to pray for what you lack.

Thank you brother needed to hear that...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, but you are not promoting a continued stumbling and then teaching, in detail, how to continue stumbling.

You at least know the difference between stumbling and obedience.

Now lets ask the question 'Is obedience to Christ and obedience to our understanding of the law the same thing?'

Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


No. It sure isn't the same thing. Especially since the Lord Jesus Christ gives us REST from that way of trying to attain righteousness.

No, it isn't the same thing, you are right.
Most Christians have never physically murdered anyone. Even before they were Christians they never murdered. So the world says they are not murderers. But we all know we have murdered.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And even after a Christian comes to understand and agree with God's definition of murder, there is no power to overcome this sin but through trust and the Holy Spirit.

 

[garee]

what about interpreting Isaiah 28 by what Isaiah 28 says instead of by Mark 7, which came what, 6 or 800 years later?

i think it's pretty sketchy to try to make this about 1st century Phariseeism, especially since the things you are saying are no where in this text. what in this chapter says they were adding their own human rules to Moses Law? nothing. you can't just slap Mark 7:13 onto the whole Bible dude, please don't be blind.

Its not my goal to be rude. Sorry if I ofened you.

The unbelieving Jew as those who having "no faith". From the moment Moses came down from Mount Sinai having the ten commandments written by the finger of God . They refused to believe God and taught other non believers not only written commands came but oral commandments as oral traditions of men which they teach expands as adding to it, as it is written, as two kinds of teaching authorities(masters) making the word of God, his tradition without effect. It is the nature of Isaiah 28 as well as Mark 7 called a "law of the fathers" Christ called them a brood of vipers as false prophets

In Catholicism, in the Cathetecism... their book of the law according to the law of the fathers #80 it is taught, two divine sources (the oral of men and the written of God) as authority coming together as one. This is as if we could serve two teaching masters, By it they establish their queen of heaven false doctrine. Making the things of God not seen in order to establish the things of men seen (no faith)

The Old testament Jews were simply copied by the Catholics, same mind set, having different name for fathers but the same kind of false authority the oral traditions of men . Just as in Isiah 28 they refused to beleive prophecy as those with no faith ( we will not hearken unto thee.)

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we "will not" hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine Jerimiah 44:16-18

 

[mailmandan]

To walk in the light is not to be perfect. It is to be honest. The next step is to pray for what you lack.

Yes, it's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk. Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree. The apostle said: if these things are yours AND ARE INCREASING, you do well. (my paraphrase).

 

[oldethennew]

ROMAN 5:10.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of hiH Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.