Suffering and the Nature of God

[Reaper]

For various reasons, I am interested in how people respond to the notion that there is something inherently wrong/flawed with our concept of God's nature in relationship to the creation of man. Why did God create man when He knew the destruction which would follow? If God was not omniscient perhaps we could attribute it to oversight, not anticipating certain behaviors.. miscalculation. But God doesn't have the benefit of those "outs". He knew before he formed Adam not only that he would fall, but that because of it everything would fall like dominoes and lead to the death of Jesus.

We are told that all glory belongs to God, yet He set in motion a system which, by design, would produced untold suffering, destruction and death. He sacrificed His only Son, based on a system He set up to produce that outcome. I have heard some refer to God as sadistic or psychotic because of the system He created. We are told that a minority of human beings will be saved so again why create a species who were condemned to fail even before they were created?

This is not a discussion of free will or predestination, but rather God's nature and motivation for creating man. When Job and Paul attempted to address a similar question, they were told, basically, that God is God and they were not. I recently watched the Kirk Cameron movie, "Unstoppable". It was interesting and pretty well made, but left much of this unaddressed. I am interested in the perspectives of others especially supported with Scripture although perspective or connecting the dots in any fashion is welcome. Thank you!

 

[biscuit]

For various reasons, I am interested in how people respond to the notion that there is something inherently wrong/flawed with our concept of God's nature in relationship to the creation of man. Why did God create man when He knew the destruction which would follow? If God was not omniscient perhaps we could attribute it to oversight, not anticipating certain behaviors.. miscalculation. But God doesn't have the benefit of those "outs". He knew before he formed Adam not only that he would fall, but that because of it everything would fall like dominoes and lead to the death of Jesus.

We are told that all glory belongs to God, yet He set in motion a system which, by design, would produced untold suffering, destruction and death. He sacrificed His only Son, based on a system He set up to produce that outcome. I have heard some refer to God as sadistic or psychotic because of the system He created. We are told that a minority of human beings will be saved so again why create a species who were condemned to fail even before they were created?

This is not a discussion of free will or predestination, but rather God's nature and motivation for creating man. When Job and Paul attempted to address a similar question, they were told, basically, that God is God and they were not. I recently watched the Kirk Cameron movie, "Unstoppable". It was interesting and pretty well made, but left much of this unaddressed. I am interested in the perspectives of others especially supported with Scripture although perspective or connecting the dots in any fashion is welcome. Thank you!

Perhaps when the New Heaven (New Earth) is created we can sit next to our Creator and ask Him these questions. Until then, I would never challenge God's decisions because He is in control of all things.

 

[Heartsearcher]

because he knew us before he even created earth and loves his dear children. he wanted to give us the gift of living regardless the fact we would fall he knew that we would love him and seek to know him. before the creation of man satan already lost

 

[Vernon]

I believe the largest flaw to our concept of God's nature is the belief that he created humanity to only save a few people. God would be sadistic to make a world where hatred and evilness exists with the plan to make the majority of humans suffer in eternal torment and anguish. God said humanity was good in the beginning and Jesus suffered and died for all the sins of the world. I believe God will save the majority of humanity. I know this is not a popular belief among believers, but I believe God's love overcomes all things, and he did not create man to become evil, but to become as He is.

 

[Heartsearcher]

I believe the largest flaw to our concept of God's nature is the belief that he created humanity to only save a few people. God would be sadistic to make a world where hatred and evilness exists with the plan to make the majority of humans suffer in eternal torment and anguish. God said humanity was good in the beginning and Jesus suffered and died for all the sins of the world. I believe God will save the majority of humanity. I know this is not a popular belief among believers, but I believe God's love overcomes all things, and he did not create man to become evil, but to become as He is.

precisely. i dont believe in the whole predestination thing when it comes to salvation. i believe god gaves us free will so therefor we have the power to alter our destiny just as god can alter the future. its not easy to understand but i think with humans god made it where our salvation is never set and stone until we die so that all have the chance to be saved

 

[Reaper]

Thank you for your response. With all due respect, your answer is what I would like to go beyond. When talking to unbelievers or believers who are struggling, your response is usually viewed with contempt. In the end, your answer may be the only one that stands, but Christianity, while faith based, still needs to make sense even if that sense is very difficult to grasp. Paul told us to be prepared to give a defense of our faith and this issue is huge among those mentioned above. Thank you for your time.

 

[Reaper]

because he knew us before he even created earth and loves his dear children. he wanted to give us the gift of living regardless the fact we would fall he knew that we would love him and seek to know him. before the creation of man satan already lost

Thank you for your response. I believe He loves us. At the same time, whether looking at the narrow vs. wide road, the parable of the sower, separating the sheep and goats etc.. it seems undeniable that a large percentage of those created in his image will stand condemned. I believe God's mercy will reach as far as it can, but He is limited by His nature. He cannot sin and he cannot break His promises or contradict Himself. He knew before man was created that this would be the reality of his creation. It does not seem logical or loving and there seems to be missing pieces or explanations.

 

[Hungry]

Where did we get the idea that God is omniscient?

 

[starfield]

For various reasons, I am interested in how people respond to the notion that there is something inherently wrong/flawed with our concept of God's nature in relationship to the creation of man. Why did God create man when He knew the destruction which would follow? If God was not omniscient perhaps we could attribute it to oversight, not anticipating certain behaviors.. miscalculation. But God doesn't have the benefit of those "outs". He knew before he formed Adam not only that he would fall, but that because of it everything would fall like dominoes and lead to the death of Jesus.

We are told that all glory belongs to God, yet He set in motion a system which, by design, would produced untold suffering, destruction and death. He sacrificed His only Son, based on a system He set up to produce that outcome. I have heard some refer to God as sadistic or psychotic because of the system He created. We are told that a minority of human beings will be saved so again why create a species who were condemned to fail even before they were created?

This is not a discussion of free will or predestination, but rather God's nature and motivation for creating man. When Job and Paul attempted to address a similar question, they were told, basically, that God is God and they were not. I recently watched the Kirk Cameron movie, "Unstoppable". It was interesting and pretty well made, but left much of this unaddressed. I am interested in the perspectives of others especially supported with Scripture although perspective or connecting the dots in any fashion is welcome. Thank you!

Christ’s sacrifice was ordained before the foundation of the world, so God knew that man would fall and sin and suffering will be introduced before He created the world, yet He still created the world. Why? I believe the answer is found here:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


​

Ultimately, God is good and does all things for His eternal glory.

 

[starfield]

I believe the largest flaw to our concept of God's nature is the belief that he created humanity to only save a few people. God would be sadistic to make a world where hatred and evilness exists with the plan to make the majority of humans suffer in eternal torment and anguish. God said humanity was good in the beginning and Jesus suffered and died for all the sins of the world. I believe God will save the majority of humanity. I know this is not a popular belief among believers, but I believe God's love overcomes all things, and he did not create man to become evil, but to become as He is.

Universal reconciliation is heresy.

 

[Reaper]

I believe the largest flaw to our concept of God's nature is the belief that he created humanity to only save a few people. God would be sadistic to make a world where hatred and evilness exists with the plan to make the majority of humans suffer in eternal torment and anguish. God said humanity was good in the beginning and Jesus suffered and died for all the sins of the world. I believe God will save the majority of humanity. I know this is not a popular belief among believers, but I believe God's love overcomes all things, and he did not create man to become evil, but to become as He is.

Your perspective seems to stand in contradiction with Scripture. I would like to believe it because it seems more consistent with the nature of a loving God who seeks to save rather than condemn. However, He dealt with people in the OT with extreme prejudice and finality and in Hebrews clearly warns that for those who are believers and turns away their fate will not be pleasant. I believe He will make accommodation for those who never have an opportunity to hear the the Gospel although this belief/hope does stand in contradiction to the warning that "Ignorance is not an excuse". I have many things I want to believe, but I don't want a belief system fashioned by my own hopes/beliefs, but rather based on the best possible understanding I can have of Scripture.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Its true that GOD knew mankind would fail before he made/created you;but remember GODs ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

It would not be in truth for GOD to give us something and then make us do things the way he would have us do them.

he gave us dominion,that meant that we had a choice to do what we wanted to do in the earth;

but GOD in his mercy knew that we would not like the choice that we made,even though he allowed us to make that choice and he even told us what would happen if we made the wrong choice,

He loves us and made a way for us to get back in right standing with him by (believing)faith in his word.GOD is holy and if sin had not been punished,then people would be asking why didn't GOD just let us have a relationship with him with all of our sin.

If GOD had not of punished sin then people would be saying-(not me ),i'm telling you what I think people would say/think)they might say/think (GOD is sovereign but he is not holy) ,thats why JESUS died for us,,our blood was not acceptable;but JESUS blood was worthy/accepted by GOD,and now through faith GOD sees the blood and not our sin and grace has been provided and we can have relationship with GOD through faith.

 

[Heartsearcher]

Thank you for your response. I believe He loves us. At the same time, whether looking at the narrow vs. wide road, the parable of the sower, separating the sheep and goats etc.. it seems undeniable that a large percentage of those created in his image will stand condemned. I believe God's mercy will reach as far as it can, but He is limited by His nature. He cannot sin and he cannot break His promises or contradict Himself. He knew before man was created that this would be the reality of his creation. It does not seem logical or loving and there seems to be missing pieces or explanations.

but that is just the thing, it doesnt makes sense because its gods way not mans. the love he has for us doesnt make sense, in fact when we have the same love for others we are seen as weird because its not normal and doesnt make sense. that is why faith in god is so amazing because it contridicts everything in mans ways so it wont ever make sense. this is why we cant lean on our own understanding and just trust god because we cannot figure this out logically

 

[Reaper]

Christ’s sacrifice was ordained before the foundation of the world, so God knew that man would fall and sin and suffering will be introduced before He created the world, yet He still created the world. Why? I believe the answer is found here:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



​

Ultimately, God is good and does all things for His eternal glory.

Thank you for your response. Yes, your response is the standard response to this type of question and may be the only way we can respond to questions of this nature, but it seems inadequate. To say that the God, whose motives/design is being questioned, is the same one who gives the answer, which, again, is essentially, because I said so, so trust me, seems contrived. It is like a cult leader who tells his followers if his motives/methods are questioned by outsiders than they must be enemies to be destroyed or shunned. Is there no other explanation for why God would create a system, destined to fail, which He knew would fail and is still grinding on thousands of years later with untold misery and agony? Someone described it like a movie director who saw a script and knew it was terrible, but made the movie anyway because he would get some attention for it.

 

[Reaper]

I have to step away for a few hours, but will be back to read and respond to posts. Thank you for your time.

 

[Hungry]

What is man? I think we value ourselves too highly in the cosmic balance. What do you suppose we look like to God? Have you ever drew a picture? It might have been a good picture. It was still just a picture that one day would be thrown in the garbage without a care. We are just a picture more or less. Are we evil or sadistic because some pictures we hang on the fridge and others we throw away? It's our artwork and so we get to decide what to do with it. Unlike us and our discarded masterpieces God has suffered to give us the choice whether we want to be recycled into a fantastic new creation or hauled off to the dump to rot with the other garbage. EVERYBODY has the choice. People need to humble themselves and see what the actual truth is: God is sovereign and we are dust.

 

[Reaper]

One theme that is consistent in the answers is that God's answer, "I'm God and you're not", should suffice. For some issues that is fine for example why He put a star here instead of there or why a penguin is made the way it is made. But, God doesn't provide any insight into this issue beyond telling us, essentially, to ignore a fairly stark and critical element in our faith and intellectual system. Creating something flawed and than punishing it for being flawed and allowing your Son to be tortured and killed because of that flaw seems extremely strange like some kind of unforeseen design flaw that resulted in a fatal error. Is it possible God did not know what Adam and Eve would do? Is it possible that God has limitations?

 

[Reaper]

Thank you for that perspective. God said some are made for noble and others for ignoble purposes. What about Judas who we believe he retained free will still was identified to have been made part of God's plan for the betrayal. Was Judas made to be discarded, but serve a purpose? Is the absolute and total love of God toward man overstated? Even light of Christ's suffering? What about people who never hear of Christ or whose lives are so negatively impacted by circumstances that they can't comprehend God's love for them? Beyond this, why would God make a creation with so much misery attached to it?

 

[Vernon]

Universal reconciliation is heresy.

? Who said anything about universal reconciliation ? Very sad

 

[Vernon]

Your perspective seems to stand in contradiction with Scripture. I would like to believe it because it seems more consistent with the nature of a loving God who seeks to save rather than condemn. However, He dealt with people in the OT with extreme prejudice and finality and in Hebrews clearly warns that for those who are believers and turns away their fate will not be pleasant. I believe He will make accommodation for those who never have an opportunity to hear the the Gospel although this belief/hope does stand in contradiction to the warning that "Ignorance is not an excuse". I have many things I want to believe, but I don't want a belief system fashioned by my own hopes/beliefs, but rather based on the best possible understanding I can have of Scripture.

You can take from scripture what you want , I want to pray to God for the salvation of all the souls he alone created. If God created humanity to condemn the vast majority to eternal damnation then he is not the God who has revealed himself to me.