Teaching Obedience to the Law Unmasked: Neo-Judaism in the Church

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Seeker47

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Has anyone really read the title of this thread? It took me a little while to digest the words.

I find it concerning. What exactly is "Neo-Judaism"? Does this refer to the rebirth of something once passed? Neo-Nazism refers to such a recovery process, something once defeated that climbs its way back. Does this have a similar meaning? I can find no reference or information about this word outside CC.

Words have meaning.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Has anyone really read the title of this thread? It took me a little while to digest the words.

I find it concerning. What exactly is "Neo-Judaism"? Does this refer to the rebirth of something once passed? Neo-Nazism refers to such a recovery process, something once defeated that climbs its way back. Does this have a similar meaning? I can find no reference or information about this word outside CC.

Words have meaning.
I think he’s talking about modern Judaism
 

Aaron56

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Has anyone really read the title of this thread? It took me a little while to digest the words.

I find it concerning. What exactly is "Neo-Judaism"? Does this refer to the rebirth of something once passed? Neo-Nazism refers to such a recovery process, something once defeated that climbs its way back. Does this have a similar meaning? I can find no reference or information about this word outside CC.

Words have meaning.
"Neo" means "new". "Judaism" is self-explanatory.

Together, as I wrote, they comprise a religion that mixes Judaism and Belief in Christ. This is not "new" to the faithful in Christ: such a teaching tried to come into the church when Acts took place. What IS new is the emphasis on the law today, Jewish mysticism, and lies like "getting back to our Jewish roots".
 

Moses_Young

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Has anyone really read the title of this thread? It took me a little while to digest the words.

I find it concerning. What exactly is "Neo-Judaism"? Does this refer to the rebirth of something once passed? Neo-Nazism refers to such a recovery process, something once defeated that climbs its way back. Does this have a similar meaning? I can find no reference or information about this word outside CC.

Words have meaning.
Neo-Judaism is like you state, the recurrence of Judaisers in the church. In the early church, they were easy to identify because of their big push for circumcision. Because Paul wrote Galatians condemning Judaisers and circumcision as a methodology for trying to keep the law, Judaisers are a bit craftier these days, telling people they need other works to be saved, like getting baptised, or tithing, or keeping the Sabbath, or refraining from certain foods/drinks etc. These things aren't necessarily bad by themselves (and some are good), but we can never be saved by works, and anyone that adds works as a requirement to the salvation found in Christ alone is preaching a false gospel.
 

Seeker47

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"Neo" means "new". "Judaism" is self-explanatory.

Together, as I wrote, they comprise a religion that mixes Judaism and Belief in Christ. This is not "new" to the faithful in Christ: such a teaching tried to come into the church when Acts took place. What IS new is the emphasis on the law today, Jewish mysticism, and lies like "getting back to our Jewish roots".
I believe the word used then was Judaizer....it is the Christian history of that word that causes me concern.
 

Magenta

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I believe the word used then was Judaizer....it is the Christian history of that word that causes me concern.
In the New Testament, the Judaizers were a group of Jewish Christians who insisted that their co-religionists should follow the Mosaic Law.《 found through a general search. Do please excuse the bold font, as I am on my phone which I have trouble posting with.
 

Magenta

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@Seeker47 I also wanted to ask you what is it about the Christian history of the word Judaizers that concerns you? Heh, oh, not trying to be contentious; just seeking clarity, since after 2000 years, there is probably all sorts if history around it, though I am just guessing about that...
 

Soyeong

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What I'd like to know is how and why so many people seem to be getting sucked into the Judaizer trap. Do they just not know the scriptures, or not understand? Judaizers make some pretty convincing arguments and I suspect people who are immature in their faith fall for it. People need to know this isn't just another sect of Christianity but a cult. Paul said in Galatians 5:4 that those who attempt to be justified by law are estranged from Christ. So you can't claim to be a disciple of Christ and at the same time try to observe the law; it's one or the other.

There seems to be a massive presence of Judaizers online. Are their numbers actually increasing or do they just all hang out online?
The goal of a disciple is to learn from their rabbi how to obey the Mosaic Law by following what they taught by word and by example, which Christ taught his disciples to do, so it is contradictory for you to claim that we can’t be a disciple of Christ while trying to observe the Mosaic Law, but rather we can’t be a disciple of Christ while refusing to follow what he taught. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Mosaic Law and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul warning us against doing that by saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. Moreover, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and this is what it means to be a under grace, not the way to fall from it. The problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to have first become circumcised in order to become justified, which is not a position that I support, so I completely agree with Paul’s stance against them and you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against.

Paul was a servant of God, so it should not make sense to you to interpret him as speaking against obeying God’s law. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law, and the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so even if your interpretation of Paul were correct and Paul were an enemy of God who was speaking against submitting to His law, then we must obey God rather than Paul. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so God did not give he people any room to follow anyone who does that even if they perform signs and wonders. However, the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying any of His laws.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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You said this:

"'49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.'

God's Law was intended for all humans "

Are Christians humans? Yes. Every single one of us. I drew a conclusion consistent with your assertion.
No you didn't.
I said, "God's Law was intended for all humans just like being saved through Jesus is intended for all humans."
When the Law was in effect it was for all humans and now we go through Jesus.
You are just doubling down on your original error.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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And look at your post.
Dino246 said:
You said this:

"'49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.'

God's Law was intended for all humans "

Are Christians humans? Yes. Every single one of us. I drew a conclusion consistent with your assertion.


Me said:
To double down on your error you even ""removed"" my original words.

I said, "God's Law was intended for all humans just like being saved through Jesus is intended for all humans."

But you only posted this, "God's Law was intended for all humans "

You are deceitful.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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If you disagree with my position without establishing that I have misunderstood the verses that I used to support my position, then you are denying the truth of those verses.
Didn't Jesus say "the Law" could be summed up into 2 Commandments?
1. Love God with all that you are
2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Any true Christian is obeying these Commandments. So essentially they are fulfilling the Law. The 603 laws + 10 Commandments were all about Loving God with your whole being and loving your neighbor as yourself. And as a follower of Jesus, I am fulfilling these 2 Commandments that express the entire Law without actually following/observing the 603 laws + 10 Commandments.

Jesus made it easier for us. Bottom line, if someone doesn't make God first in their life nor loves any human being they walk past they are not truly saved.
 

Seeker47

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@Seeker47 I also wanted to ask you what is it about the Christian history of the word Judaizers that concerns you? Heh, oh, not trying to be contentious; just seeking clarity, since after 2000 years, there is probably all sorts if history around it, though I am just guessing about that...
First, the inquisition; it's sole stated purpose was to eliminate Judaizers from the church. This was also the basis of most of the abuses heaped upon Jews throughout history...including the holocaust which sought to purify society and the church.

I know this is not the intent of this thread and do not wish to imply that in any way....it's just that some topics need to be discussed very carefully. Unmasking neo-judaism are terrifying words for millions of people.
 

Aaron56

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Unmasking neo-judaism are terrifying words for millions of people.
I've never heard of such things and I'm fairly plugged into world events.

I mean, neonatal, neolithic, neophyte, etc. 'Neo-'s been around a lot longer than the Nazis.

But I agree, it's off topic.
 

Cameron143

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I've never heard of such things and I'm fairly plugged into world events.

I mean, neonatal, neolithic, neophyte, etc. 'Neo-'s been around a lot longer than the Nazis.

But I agree, it's off topic.
Start a neothread.
 

Soyeong

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Naw I just think you don’t understand me disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I reject scripture . But it’s just my opinion not anything more than another person in a Bible discussion forum with an opinion like everyone else
Indeed, we all have opinions and we all think that our opinions are correct, otherwise they wouldn’t continue to be our opinions. However, not all opinions are created equal. We have all held incorrect opinions in the past and we will probably all hold incorrect opinions in the future, so the chances are pretty good that we all currently hold incorrect opinions, we just don’t know which ones they are,. Nobody wants to have incorrect opinions, but and we probably won’t find out which of our opinions are incorrect unless we interact with people who will explain why they disagree with us, hence the purpose of this forum. Iron sharpens iron, so if you think that my opinions about how the verses that cited should be interpreted are wrong, then I want to know why.

I think you can’t hear certain things yet like this

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think you have a hard time with two covenants that aren’t the same and as well as the ordination and mediation of angels and Moses over the law I don’t think you understand that part either

about it’s just an old fool in a bi ke discussion forums opinion so I wouldn’t give a huge hoot about it or take any offense or anything
While I agree that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant and that the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same eternal character and therefore the same eternal law for how to testify about His character, which is why Jeremiah 31:33 says that the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law. For example, our good work in obedience to the Mosaic Law testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. The only way to do away with God's instructions for how to testify about His goodness would be by first doing away with God's goodness.
 

Soyeong

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Didn't Jesus say "the Law" could be summed up into 2 Commandments?
1. Love God with all that you are
2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Any true Christian is obeying these Commandments. So essentially they are fulfilling the Law. The 603 laws + 10 Commandments were all about Loving God with your whole being and loving your neighbor as yourself. And as a follower of Jesus, I am fulfilling these 2 Commandments that express the entire Law without actually following/observing the 603 laws + 10 Commandments.

Jesus made it easier for us. Bottom line, if someone doesn't make God first in their life nor loves any human being they walk past they are not truly saved.
In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which were the only commandments that we should still follow, but about what the greatest commandment is, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that other commandments that are not the greatest two still exist. The point of knowing the greatest command is so that we can know what to do when God's commandments appear to conflict with each other. For example, while God commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath, He also commanded priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser commandment was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater commandment from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent.

A sum is the total of all of its parts, so summing it up does not remove any of its parts or make it easier. If you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, so if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law. For example, if someone thinks that they can love their neighbor without needing to follow the law against murder, then they are missing the point. Love fulfills the law because everything in it was given for the purpose of teaching us how to love. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of His other commandment to paint us a picture of what it looks like to correctly obey them. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so that doesn't leave room for just obeying the command to love while being lawless to the rest of God's laws for how to love.
 

Soyeong

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May I ask you to correct your post.

On the one hand, you have the delight that Paul experienced of obeying the law?

Then on the other hand, the reason that Paul wasn’t enjoying himself was because of the law of sin, that was holding him captive.

What is the role of the law, for your enjoyment, or for making you aware of your evil nature?

To delight the Jews because it's wonderful, or does the law condemn the Jews?

Choose one and stick to it.
Romans 7:21-25 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Can you not see that there is a law that Paul wanted to obey and a law that was waging war against the law of his mind, which was hindering him from obeying the law that He wanted to obey and that we should be careful not to misinterpret the things that Paul said about the law that was waging war against the law of his mind as speaking referring to the law of his mind? Paul needed to be rescued from the law that was waging war against the law of His mind on order to be free to obey the law of his mind, not the other way around.

Everyone who considers these words to be Scripture shares the view that they express towards obeying the Mosaic Law, including the NT authors:

Psalms 19:7-11
7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules[d] of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.

The Psalmists said nothing along the lines as needing to be rescued from the Mosaic Law, but rather they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching the to obey it and they chose the way of faith by setting it before them (Psalms 119:29-30). The Mosaic Law only condemns those who refuse to submit to it and there is only no condemnation for those who do submit to it. In John 2:6 those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so verses that speak about those who are in Christ are only speaking about those who are walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law, such as Romans 8:1, which says that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which were the only commandments that we should still follow, but about what the greatest commandment is, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that other commandments that are not the greatest two still exist. The point of knowing the greatest command is so that we can know what to do when God's commandments appear to conflict with each other. For example, while God commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath, He also commanded priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser commandment was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater commandment from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent.

A sum is the total of all of its parts, so summing it up does not remove any of its parts or make it easier. If you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, so if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law. For example, if someone thinks that they can love their neighbor without needing to follow the law against murder, then they are missing the point. Love fulfills the law because everything in it was given for the purpose of teaching us how to love. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of His other commandment to paint us a picture of what it looks like to correctly obey them. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so that doesn't leave room for just obeying the command to love while being lawless to the rest of God's laws for how to love.
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang """all the law""" and the prophets.
 

Pilgrimshope

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i just dont agree with your opinions regarding the old testement law the entire concept you are talking about is why I disagree

I don’t think it needs interpretation we’re meant to learn from Jesus and his apostles and the revelation they had of those things in the ot …..that they revealed in the nt

yes God has always been the only God we agree there neither of us has suggested any different ….at any point that I’m aware of

Listen ….. The Old covenant made through Moses intercession was handed over to angels after they worshipped the calf by the one God

“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices By the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Figures which ye made to worship them: And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:41-43‬ ‭

that’s what Paul’s saying here

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses went up to get the tables of the testimony when he did the people he had made the covenant with had already broken the very first commandment God told them all this from the Mount this

“And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what they did as Moses was receiving the commandment tables

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

( he’s decided to destroy them all but for Moses but Moses Intercedes and saves them but he also judges them in his angry disposition )

And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? ….( Moses makes a plea and recalls abrahams promise ) And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. ( he’s not going to consume them all but watch what happens this is what Stephen is talking about in acts seven )

And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

….And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

………then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

( Moses puts his own life on the line for his people )

And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee:


nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:7-11, 14-16, 19-21, 26-28, 30-35‬ ‭

Whatbhaopened eas just what stepehen is saying God turned and appointed an angel this angel with this disposition towards mankind

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

note that jesus is the exact opposite of this angel who will not pardon transgression. He is all about pardoning our sins remitting them in his death were told to go to jesus and hear and believe in him …..of the angel it says beware of him for he will not pardon so you have this disposition hanging over everything in the law

“Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭23:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now you have this disposition Spoken by the angel in Gods name

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You can see this disposition throughout the law because that angel who will not pardon sin is the ordaining authority bearing the name of the lord exactly like he said to Moses there “I’m sending my angel with you to lead you into the promised land beware of him obey his voice because he will not pardon your sins “

He’s handing the people over to Moses and the angels because of the sinfulness of the people he had already decided to destroy them all until Moses interceded but wow they had already made a golden calfe and worshipped it the king it for saving them from Egypt exactly what Gods first commandment said not to do and what the law says must be punished by death

The thing is the law doesn’t go together with the gospel the gospel stands on its own and so does the law each has its own ordination , preisthood mediator sacrifices ordinances and commandments we hear one covenant t from Moses the one made with Israel’s offspring

and then the one made by and through and of Jesus Christ with all creation beginning with them in Israel who had believed which is the gospel

There’s always been one God we can certainly agree there but he’s made a new covenant and also the new covenant is actually given to all people not only the children of Israel

What makes it different is it’s not the same ordination , priesthood mediation , mediator , sacrifice of atonement , words of the covenant itself , Moses never interceded for Christian’s so they aren’t beholden to his law

Jesus interceded for us so we belong to his covenant , his words , his preisthood his sacrifice and bloodshed his atonement not the one Moses commanded

It’s just an entirely better covenant based upon better promises made by Jesus Christ our Lord rather the covenant Moses had mediated between the same God yes but having an angelic ordination because of rhier sin and also having a mediator and intercessor Moses. Who saved them under the law rather than Christ who saved the world who believes including even Moses himself ….

Its okay though people don’t always agree here I don’t think it’s an issue until we make it one there’s actually a lot regarding th e law and the angels disposition upon it it’s why it seems so unforgiving because it’s not meant to forgive like the gospel is