Temple of God - Christians or a physical building in Jerusalem?

Hevosmies · Oct 9, 2018

I have second year Seminary Greek. I don't speak, but rather I read it. No one can speak Koine Greek, because it died out in about 400AD, and we don't know what it sounds like. People do say the words, but using modern Greek pronunciations, which we hope are similar to Koine.

So, Gal 6:16:

"καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ’ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ." Gal. 6:16 SBL Greek NT

"And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God." Gal. 6:16 NET

I assume you are referring to the part "καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ." I will get into the Greek, but this verse is very important in context.

" Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh. 14 But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! 16 And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God." Gal. 6:12-14

What is the book of Galatians about? It is all a warning about the Judiazers in their midst. Really, we can go back farther in Galatians 6, and find out that Paul is not happy about them. These are the people that want the men who are Gentiles to be circumcised, and to live under the Old Testament commandments, which, as Paul points out both here, and at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, cannot be done! No one can be perfect enough to please God under the old laws. Plus, it makes a mockery of Jesus sacrifice on the cross, for our sins, the once for all perfect sacrifice.

Paul finds four problems with the Judaizers: (brackets are all verse numbers)
1. Their method is force (12a)
2. Their motive is fear (12b)
3. Their consistency is flawed, (13a)
4. and their goal is to flaunt (13b).

Paul then evaluates himself by:
1. revealing his goal (14)
2. reiterating his perspective on nationalists (15-16)
3. declaring his justification for being right, he has been persecuted (17).

Verse 14, Paul reveals his goal. The Judaizers may glory in their flesh, but I (Paul) glory in the cross of Christ. Paul knew he had died to the world, and the world had died to him through the cross. The world was connected to the law of Moses, and therefore the entire enterprise was done with. All that remains is Christ, and glorying in the instrument that sets us free - the cross. Paul's entire goal was to glory in the cross of Christ, and he would gladly accept persecution.

Verses 15-16, Paul declares his perspective on nationalism. once again, neither belonging to the Jewish nation (being circumcised) nor being a Gentile, (not circumcised) mattered: What mattered was that God had formed a new people, a new church, and that this new people was an entirely 'new creation."

This new creation includes both Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free and males and females. (Gal. 3:28). Social and sexual distinctions no longer matter. God's work is the new creation principle, radically different from the nationalistic-cultural model that characterized Judaism.

Paul cursed those who pretached a different gospel (the gospel of nationalism) at the beginning of the letter (Gal 1:6-9), so now he blesses those who follow the gospel of Christ. And what "rule"? What standard of measurement is Paul talking about? The measure where one does not take into consideration a person's nationality. The ones who consider a person in light of Christ, and his cross are the "Israel of God."

So who is this "Israel of God"? As early as Justin Martyr, he said that the Christian church is "the true, spiritual Israel." Plus, there is continuity between the old Israel and the church in that the church is a community of both Jews and Gentiles, who believe in Christ.

Of course, there are those who would have this "Israel of God" refer to only "Jewish Christians." But this goes completely against what the book of Galatians is saying, and the previous verses, which clearly debunk any kind of social barriers and nationalism.

Finally, getting back to the Greek, a simple way to make "Israel of God" refer to Jewish Christians is to change the καὶ, to "especially" although this is a rather obscure use of καὶ. None the less, even if Paul is only referring to Jewish Christians, which is inconsistent with Gal. 3:28, it is still referring to a "part" of the church, that is the Jewish Christians. It simply never would refer to Israel the nation, which Paul has repeatedly condemned as not being of God, because Christ and the cross is the new covenant, and the old is obsolete.

I believe it is best to see this as a blessing on the church, that is, all who live according to the new creation principle. And perhaps it is also a blessing on the Jewish Christians, who have had to stand against the Judaizers, and the breaking down of the barriers that have governed them so long. The point being this blessing of peace and mercy to those who follow Christ, which is the true Israel.

Thank you! I agree ! Great explanation and well laid out and detailed. 100% True.
All church fathers agreed church is the true israelites

garee · Oct 9, 2018

OT saints will be raised/resurrected "to stand again on the earth" [Job's reference, and Dan12:13, etc...]

What kind of body or flesh, and stand on which earth? The new heaven and earth where the former thing from the old will not be remembered or ever come to mind. Stand for what purpose?

Surely not the corrupted flesh as a body of death. It returned to the lifeless spiritless dust of the field from where it was formed from . Flesh and blood as rudiments of this world could never enter the new incorruptible heavens and earth.

Quantrill · Oct 9, 2018

Angela53510 said:

No, I am not saying that. People were saved throughout the Old Testament though they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They were saved by faith, and their spirit was renewed and declared righteous by God. Yet they did not have the Spirit as promised by Christ that would come at Pentecost.

As I said, that Spirit at Pentecost was the Holy Spirit in its welding and meshing with the Son of God, Son of Man, Jesus Christ, at the resurrection. A specific Body...the Body of Christ.

Quantrill

Quantrill · Oct 9, 2018

garee said:

I don't think Psalms 51 is saying David could loose his salvation and Christ would need to be sacrificed over and over every time he sinned. All of the things in that Psalm spoke of were a plea to stay close . In Psalm 139 David said when I wake you are still there.

I do not believe that God would begin a good work of salvation and not finish it to the very end.

The born again doctrine was needed for the Old testament saints like those in 1 Peter 1:11 as well as the new , Just as if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to Christ. Every old testament saint that died not receiving their new incorruptible bodies were raised having the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Christ when Christ said it was finished. They because they had the Holy Spirit entered the promised land the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as His bride, the church .

The difference between the old testament and Pentecost are the shadows in respect to using the outward flesh of a Jew as a metaphor as a historically true parable. This was for the time then present (the time of the Kings).The new restored order reverts back to the time of Judges when there was no outward representitive and men worship God not seen, as King, by faith.

The church age is a phrase people use to assume there was no reformation and there is some kind of a difference between the outward flesh of a Jew and the outward flesh of a Gentile. The church age as the bride of Christ began with Abel in whom God had favor or grace same kind of grace spoken of in 1 Peter 1:10. They received the end of their new faith the salvation of their souls that came form hearing God just as us today. God puts no difference between them and gentiles purifying the hearts of both by a mutual work of His faith.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:1 Peter 1:10

What applies from Philippians 1:6 for this side of the cross applied on the other side. Remember the work of salvation as the lamb of God is in respect to the foundation of the world.(first six days) And not from the outward fleshly demonstration in regard to flesh that did not profit that was promised in Joel I will pour out my unseen spirit .On the seventh day he rested from all His work

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

I didn't say (Ps. 51:11) said anything about David losing his salvation.

You assume those in the Old Testament were 'born again'. Based on what? (1 Peter 1:11) says nothing about being born again.

You want to argue, yet you do not answer what I proved in post (#170). Trying to change the subject or sidetrack the subject proves nothing. Give me an answer to what I showed you in post (#170).

Quantrill

preacher4truth · Oct 9, 2018

Quantrill said:

Based on Jesus' rebuking Nicodemus for not knowing this, being the teacher of Israel; note John 3:10.

OT saints were born from above. Since you don't get this you're in the same company as Nicodemus and are ignorant of a basic Biblical truth.

Quantrill · Oct 9, 2018

preacher4truth said:

Being born from above is not being born again. Born from above speaks to your origin. All believers are born from above, which is why they are believers. Both believers in the Old Testament and those after Pentecost had a renewal of their spirit from the Holy Spirit when they exercised faith. But to those at Pentecost and afterward, their spirits were born from the Holy Spirit as it exists with the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. Which forms the Body of Christ.

Quantrill

garee · Oct 9, 2018

Why marvel a man must be born again . What good would it do to go back into the womb of corrupted flesh.

Romans 8:9 King James Version (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Angela53510 · Oct 9, 2018

Quantrill said:

You really are clueless, aren't you? Do you just make this up as you go along?

Let's examine the pertinent passage:

"3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3-8 NET

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” NIV John 3:3-8

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." KJV John 3:3-6

"ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ. 4 λέγει πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ Νικόδημος· Πῶς δύναται ἄνθρωπος γεννηθῆναι γέρων ὤν; μὴ δύναται εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ δεύτερον εἰσελθεῖν καὶ γεννηθῆναι; 5 [d]ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ. 6 τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς σάρξ ἐστιν, καὶ τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος πνεῦμά ἐστιν." John 3:3-6

So, I have posted from three different English versions, and the passage in Greek, as to the meaning of γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν or gennethe anothen. The NET says "born from above" the NIV and KJV both says "born again." The way to settle this argument, is what does γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, or gennethe anothen mean, in Greek. Well, the γεννηθῇ means "born" which all the English versions agree on.

The disagreement seems to be the word "ἄνωθεν," and there is a very good reason for this. It is because ἄνωθεν, anothen, has two meanings. One is "above" and the other is "again." If you look at other examples in the Bible, you will find these two different translations all over the Greek NT. So, obviously, Born again = born from above. Different ways to say the same thing.

The interesting thing is to go back and look at what Jesus is saying, and how Nicodemus interprets it. Nicodemus hears the word "ἄνωθεν," and he thinks " born AGAIN from his mother's womb. But Jesus was NOT talking about anyone going back in their mother's womb, as the next part of this clearly says.

Jesus means that you must be born from above, of the Spirit. That was clearly his meaning, and Nicodemus, brings the confusion into it. We do NOT need to be born again of the flesh, but be born from above of the Spirit.

So, in fact, the NET is more accurate than the NIV or KJV. BUT - they still convey the same identical meaning that born again = born from above.

So, when you say that born again is different than born from above, you are really showing your ignorance. As to not only the Greek (and you are not expected to know that there are two word meanings for γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν), but all you need to do is read it in English, to find out what Jesus is talking about. He is talking about being born from above of the Spirit. To be born again, means being born of the flesh, and that is not only physically impossible, it makes no sense in context of the passage.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 9, 2018

I think I have in the past posted this quote by William Kelly, on John 3 -

"(Ezekiel 36:23-36.)
"Further, these words of the prophet [^] illustrate "the earthly things" in our Lord's conversation with Nicodemus. "If I told you the earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you the heavenly things?" (verse 12). In speaking as He had of the necessity to be born afresh- born of water and of Spirit-the Lord had not gone beyond " the earthly things." The kingdom of God could not be entered or seen without that new birth. Of course, it is indispensable for heaven; but the Lord goes farther, and insists on it as essential even for the lower province of God's kingdom. Even the Jew must be born again, and for millennial blessings, too, as well as for eternity. So true is it that they are not all Israel which are of Israel, neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.
"We shall see, too, when our Lord proceeds in His discourse to touch on His cross and the love of God in giving His Son, that to be born anew does not adequately describe what is given to the believer, but life eternal. Substantially, no doubt, it is the same new nature which every saint has, and must have; but, now that the glory and work of Christ are revealed, its full character shines out. There is yet more, as we know, and the next chapter shows-the Spirit given, and the relationship of children of God enjoyed, and the results of the death and resurrection and ascension of Christ our portion even now. But I enlarge no more on this as yet. Only we here learn that the kingdom of God has its "heavenly things," no less than "the earthly things" of which the prophets spoke. Jesus the Son could have opened the heavenly things, but the condition of such as Nicodemus did not admit of it for the present. The Spirit revealed all these and other depths of God amply after the shed blood vindicated God and purged their consciences. Then were the disciples free to learn all in the power of Christ's resurrection and in the light of heaven. Such is Christian [i.e. NT] knowledge."

--William Kelly, on John 3

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]

iamsoandso · Oct 10, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Think back to your post #35 and think about what your reading and examine your thinking of Irenaeus http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm they were Post tribulation,pre mill.'s who adhered to six thousand years being expressed by the six days of creation from Genesis. That is I mean that they believed that Genesis 2:4 is speaking of the six generation's/aeons of the earths history(a prophecy ) see AH 5.28.3 "is a prophecy" ect. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103528.htm

Quantrill · Oct 10, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Yes, Jesus is talking about being born from above, of the Spirit, in (John 3:3). That speaks to origin. And Nicodemus knew this could not mean another physical birth. (3:4)

Jesus said (John 3:3) that except you are born again, (from above) that you cannot even 'see' the Kingdom. Then in (3:5) he said except you are born of water and of the Spirit, (born again), you cannot enter into the kingdom. Unless one's origin, being from above, is not right, he cannot even see the Kingdom. Unless one is born of water and Spirit, (born again) he cannot 'enter' the kingdom. These are two different operations of the Spirit. One speaks to being 'of God or from above'. One speaks to entering the Kingdom of God.

Jesus later repeats this same truth to the Pharisees. (John 8:23) "Ye are from beneath: I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." (8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 10:26) "But ye believe not, because ye are not my sheep...."

Note that Jesus did not say you are not mine because you don't believe. He said you don't believe because you are not mine.

When one is born physically on this earth, he already is either 'of God' or 'not of God'. He is 'from above' or 'from beneath'. We don't know, only God knows. Thus you have (John 3:8) We can't know what the Sprit is doing in this area. But the one who is from above, can see, and when he hears the gospel, will turn to God, enter the kingdom, as it resonates with him because he is from above. The one that is not of God cannot see, and will reject it as it has no meaning to him as he is from beneath.

Quantrill

Quantrill · Oct 10, 2018

garee said:

Peter describes our being born again and that it is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3) Thus there is no being born again prior to the resurrection. Prior to Pentecost.

Quantrill

Hevosmies · Oct 10, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Hyper-Dispensationalism is my usual scape-goat for many of the problems in the church today.

One way to make everything difficult is to divide everything into TWO and slice everything to bits and pieces. Does this apply is this for us is it to israel? Is this the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God whats the difference is there a change in dispensation here, is this verse to the church or to israel or to tribulation saints etc etc.

Nobody in the 1st century understood it that way, because of the fact that it was just TOO COMPLICATED and they were not willing to chop scripture that way. They took all they could get, and all of it was TO THEM not to any other group.

Btw Angela thanks for telling me koine greek isnt spoken by anyone anymore it died out in 400AD, i didnt know that!

garee · Oct 10, 2018

A person can turn that around like below and its the same difference.

Note that Jesus did not say you don't believe because you are not mine. He said you are not mine because you don't believe.

We believe as he gives us his faith (ears to hear) to make it possible. Natural unconverted man is said to have "no faith" not little but none. Faith to believe him not seen is the gift

Born again believers are those who believe .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they are not born again.

We are new born again creatures "not of the flesh". Returning the a fleshly womb gives birth to the flesh . (sounds like reincarnation) The Spirit of Christ gives birth to our new spirit. No Holy Spirit no new birth. (he is "none" of his)

Romans 8:9 King James Version (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is "none" of his

That does not support the born gain doctrine. The doctrine does not leave us in a place of unbelief (no faith) As in; "We don't know, only God knows" It God revealing to us what we can know.

We are informed when one is born physically on this earth, he is not of God'.He must be born again .

God reveals we are born from above...…. giving us His faith that works in us to believe him. Why wonder? Again we do know because he reveals it as so concealing it from those who believe not (no faith)

He reveals we can know and not we can't know what the Sprit is doing in this area.

Beginning with verse 7 Jesus is informing Nicodemus marvel not or in other words why be surprised believe what I am saying. And not we cannot know what the Spirit is doing but rather we can hear what he is doing .Hearing is what he is giving . We hear him and therefore believe as he gives us ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

He is saying in the end of the matter those who do hear are "born again". Nicodemus still was confused saying how can these things be?

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.Nicodemus answered and said unto him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?John 3:7-10

garee · Oct 10, 2018

Hevosmies said:

That was interesting. When did the Latin tongue die? Before the fifteenth century reformation or after?

The first century reformation brought that which was temporally separated and restored it order as one new creature the bride of Christ, the church .She is typified as neither male or female Jew not Gentile.

Its never been about the flesh of one nation puffing its self up above the another in the end making the word of God to no effect through the oral traditions of the fathers and Kings, because they refused to hearken onto the word of God

God put no effectual difference between a Jew and Gentile, male or female purifying the hears of all by a work of His faith or labor of His love. He used Jewish flesh as a metaphor or shadow in parable for certain time periods as historical true parables.

The apostate Jew had the impression to look to the thing seen the temporal (their flesh) as if the kingdom came by observation. Turning the way we look at parable upside down. Not applying the proper hermeneutics needed to rightfully divide

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthiians 4:18

He loves us because he loves us he is kind and tnder hearted towards those who know we desire hell

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 King James Version (KJV) The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Quantrill · Oct 10, 2018

garee said:

A person can turn that around like below and its the same difference.

Note that Jesus did not say you don't believe because you are not mine. He said you are not mine because you don't believe.

We believe as he gives us his faith (ears to hear) to make it possible. Natural unconverted man is said to have "no faith" not little but none. Faith to believe him not seen is the gift

Born again believers are those who believe .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they are not born again.

We are new born again creatures "not of the flesh". Returning the a fleshly womb gives birth to the flesh . (sounds like reincarnation) The Spirit of Christ gives birth to our new spirit. No Holy Spirit no new birth. (he is "none" of his)

Romans 8:9 King James Version (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is "none" of his

That does not support the born gain doctrine. The doctrine does not leave us in a place of unbelief (no faith) As in; "We don't know, only God knows" It God revealing to us what we can know.

We are informed when one is born physically on this earth, he is not of God'.He must be born again .

God reveals we are born from above...…. giving us His faith that works in us to believe him. Why wonder? Again we do know because he reveals it as so concealing it from those who believe not (no faith)

He reveals we can know and not we can't know what the Sprit is doing in this area.

Beginning with verse 7 Jesus is informing Nicodemus marvel not or in other words why be surprised believe what I am saying. And not we cannot know what the Spirit is doing but rather we can hear what he is doing .Hearing is what he is giving . We hear him and therefore believe as he gives us ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

He is saying in the end of the matter those who do hear are "born again". Nicodemus still was confused saying how can these things be?

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.Nicodemus answered and said unto him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?John 3:7-10

Yes, you can turn it around to make it say as you would like it to say. But that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said in (John 10:20), "...ye believe not, because ye are not my sheep...."

The future promise of a new heart and spirit was given to Israel under the Old Covenant. (Ez. 36:26-28) Thus Nicodemus should have known.

Quantrill

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Temple of God - Christians or a physical building in Jerusalem?

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