Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland came under fire this...

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7seasrekeyed

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I find it amusing that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith deny their common roots and traits. All you have to do is research these guys, and you will see that Pentecostal, charismatic, and Word of Faith are rolled into one.

AND the individuals in here will deny their connection, yet display the characteristics of the other groups shortly thereafter. You aren't fooling me :)

and we find it amusing you follow Calvin and not Jesus

wha?

what an example you are. you think Jesus is going to ask you who is worthy of heaven and you are going to have a line form for your perusal?

you really are a one trick pony

and for the uninformed...I am neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic
 
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7seasrekeyed

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Bob Jones passed away several years ago.
ok...but not sure why you mention this? I might have missed something since I did not read every single post

didn't his son take over the university though?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I was watching that last video. The young commentator there started talking about the kingdom of God being in you since birth, as if he were quoting Bob Jones. Did Bob Jones say that? I heard him say the kingdom of God is in you. Jesus said that, translated 'the kingdom of God is in you' or 'the kingdom of God is in your midst.' Did anyone else catch Bob Jones actually saying the 'since birth' part.

I have heard of Bob Jones and I have seen a few clips of him. I actually met him once and saw him praying for someone when I was a young man. He was talking about breath or wind, something like in the video. It seemed a little odd and esoteric to me. My impression of him is it's hard to relate to what he's saying.

But the young man in the video said Jones spoke in a 'mainstream Charismatic church.' What would that be? Bethel? Is that 'mainstream'? If he's from that movement, maybe it seems that way to him. They are influential and growing their own group within the 'signs and wonders' movement.

But I cannot say that I have ever heard anyone mention Bob Jones or William Branham in a Pentecostal church. On forums, I can think of a pastor or two who is familiar with them who has warned about Bob Jones, but I think most people in the Pentecostal movement are unfamiliar with Jones. There are churches others dub 'Branhamite' who think Branham was a special messenger who listen to recordings of his sermons. The man taught some weird doctrine, especially later in his life. Some of the 'prophetic movement', which kind of morphed into the 'signs and wonders movement' mention him sometimes. I know about Branham because someone mentioned "God's Generals" series to me, put together by a young WOF preacher. I checked it out through Interlibrary loan in the early 1990's. Then I read bits and pieces of a book on Branham written as a Baptist seminary thesis and written as a book.

My impression of the movement is there seems to be light use of scripture in it compared to Pentecostal churches which is my background. There is a lot of emphasis on salvation and the cross in Pentecostal churches in my experience.
Maybe I don't understand your question, but the first part of the video had Bob Jones' remarks in it. Sounded sort of gnostic to me.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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hey guy also remember he is 84 years old now . he maybe suffering from something. in the 1980's KC was not off line that has happen over the past 20 years.
I don't think age can be a major factor. He's been a Word of Faith teacher for a LONG TIME.

He claims Jesus had to go to hell, and be born again. He believes God is a man about 6'2. And other typical Word of Faith nonsense.

I believe he, along with Joyce Meyer, claims Jesus was beat to a pulp by the devil after the crucifixion and that he was "born again" after this.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I don't think age can be a major factor. He's been a Word of Faith teacher for a LONG TIME.

He claims Jesus had to go to hell, and be born again. He believes God is a man about 6'2. And other typical Word of Faith nonsense.

I believe he, along with Joyce Meyer, claims Jesus was beat to a pulp by the devil after the crucifixion and that he was "born again" after this.
By the way, Jesus was beat to a pulp prior to the crucifixion, and with his last words he said IT IS FINISHED.

Seems like Kenneth and other WOFers decided to tack on a sequel to the Scriptural account, though.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Maybe I don't understand your question, but the first part of the video had Bob Jones' remarks in it. Sounded sort of gnostic to me.
I could not find a part where he said that the kingdom was in you from birth, like the commentator said, just that the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Another translation is 'in your midsts'.
 

presidente

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ok...but not sure why you mention this? I might have missed something since I did not read every single post

didn't his son take over the university though?
Different Bob Jones, then. There have been I don't know how many generations of Bob Jones Baptist fundamental type preachers associated with university by that name. I am not sure if there were two or three generations of them. This is a different Bob Jones who passed away about 6 years ago.
 

biker

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Why do Christians GIVE EAR to the World? This amazes me............carry on.


When you read some of the posts from this thread, you get the idea of sheep in wolves clothing how they have a pack like mentality. It's a good thing their lives are completely spotless. I doubt anyone thinks that their own sin is equal to anyone else. But that is not what the Bible claims. All sins are equal if it results in "Eternal Damnation."

I thought Jesus said, "Anyone without sin cast the first stone?"
I am willing to bet they would have casted stones even being full of sin!
 

wolfwint

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praise God for those that preach the gospel. If I see error.. I love them.. they are not the enemy and I still here them saying "Jesus is lord came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried. Rose the 3rd day is the only way to the Father". And I still can't find anything that has more weight or power then that!

They still take truck loads of food and stuff to those in needs be it storms fires, earthquakes. And then the millions they spend over seas. I do nothing like that. They belong to a GOD! So though we are family.. I KNOW my Father will not take kindly when I speak negatively about His kids.. or for me to tell a GOD .. who I think is a real Child. All that does is He then judges me by my own words.

See the good 1st. as God does in YOU always. Then remember that GOD? yeah He was going to toss you away for ever.. had to because of sin. Yet this God you didn't even know set you free..took your place. I don't know maybe show the same mercy grace He still shows us? Oh we know we almost DEMAND Him to forgive us when we sin. And we can't do the same for those we don't know never met? How how can the light see darkness in others 1st? If we are NOT of the night/dark? See the good 1st.. pray for when they error..

WHAT if it was you.. is THIS how you would like to be talked about? For the one.. praise GOD glory to Jesus we have no say what so ever whom the Father puts in HIS book huh! Nor will He ever ask us. Other then.. did you love them pray for them forgive them as I have ALWAYS done for you? Yeah.. we just LOVE JESUS huh.. yeah.. were the REAL Christian?

How will they know you are His? This is the love you have one for another?
But, if they preach false Gospel, and lead people astray and push people away from the Gospel like Kenneth Copeland does in his Corona movie. Then we may should pray, that he will turn to the truth, but we cant love his teaching.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Charismatics should always be aware that they are blaspheming the LORD if they say something that does not come from the LORD.

To claim that God said something when he, in fact, did not, is BLASPHEMY.

And, God forbid that anyone something in God's name that was not true.

If he does this, he is BLASPHEMING.

And, if he does this even one time, he should be SHUNNED as a blasphemer until he repents.

And, I fear that this is true for many charismatic types.

Unfortunately their fellow charismatics will often defend them to the end.

Consider Todd Bentley, whom charismatics still respect. And he is only the most notable blasphemer.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Charismatics should always be aware that they are blaspheming the LORD if they say something that does not come from the LORD.

To claim that God said something when he, in fact, did not, is BLASPHEMY.

And, God forbid that anyone something in God's name that was not true.

If he does this, he is BLASPHEMING.

And, if he does this even one time, he should be SHUNNED as a blasphemer until he repents.

And, I fear that this is true for many charismatic types.

Unfortunately their fellow charismatics will often defend them to the end.

Consider Todd Bentley, whom charismatics still respect. And he is only the most notable blasphemer.
 

presidente

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Charismatics should always be aware that they are blaspheming the LORD if they say something that does not come from the LORD.

To claim that God said something when he, in fact, did not, is BLASPHEMY.

And, God forbid that anyone something in God's name that was not true.

If he does this, he is BLASPHEMING.

And, if he does this even one time, he should be SHUNNED as a blasphemer until he repents.
I cringe hearing some Charismatics, who have this Hagineque philosophy that God is not behind the unpleasant things and calamities but that they are the work of the Devil, say God did not send this or that, especially if it is just based on their underlying theology.

But I also cringe when I hear Calvinists say, "The reason God did this or that" or say that anything that happens is the will of God. For example, Tommy and Susie are Christians. They go to church together. They start dating. They go off in a car by themselves at night, and one thing leads to another, and they start kissing, and then end up fornicating. Well, if it happened, can we say it is God's will? I Thessalonians says it is the will of God to abstain from fornication.

I have heard of preachers saying the reason someone's little girl died is because God wanted to pick the prettiest daisies. If God doesn't say something, we shouldn't put words in his mouth.

I read a post from someone criticizing Charismatics who were trying to encourage an elderly woman with arthritis to have faith to be healed. He said the reason she had the arthritis was because God wanted to teach her a lesson through the suffering. I believe I asked him if he had divine revelation about the specific reason for her suffering, and if what he said were the case, maybe he should get a bucket of ice water and have the old woman soak her arthritic knuckles in them so that her pain could increase so that she could gain more of the spiritual benefits of her arthritis.

I've seen this sort of presumption from all types of preachers and individual Christians. But in some cases, for Charismatics, it is rational since the idea that God can reveal to an individual a reason that something happened is consistent with Charismatic beliefs on prophecy and revelation. It is also consistent with scripture. Though not every claim of knowing God's will about a situation is necessarily true.

Consider Todd Bentley, whom charismatics still respect. And he is only the most notable blasphemer.
I don't know about him blaspheming per se, but that is a controversial fellow. He has some people who still like him in that 'signs and wonders' movement he is in, and probably many who do not care for him. He was controversial, even among Charismatics, back when that big Lakeland thing was going on. My wife and I heard about him and watched him on a website. A minute or two was enough. He was talking himself, his calling, all the great things that were supposed to happen. We didn't watch much. I don't remember hearing about the Lord Jesus in the parts I watched.
 

Gregoryp

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Poverty is a curse of the Law, while plenty is a blessing of the Lord. You are free to choose which to live by, especially in a free nation like the USA. You are free to live under a tarp downtown among rats and filth until the city outlaws that mode of living. You also can WORK towards blessedness. WHy attack successful people? Few if any inherit that, so get in line with God and prosper, if you dare. Many seem to fear success. Why? Is it because accountability comes with success?
ahh, prosperity theology, the bane of organised religion and a lot of western nations
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I cringe hearing some Charismatics, who have this Hagineque philosophy that God is not behind the unpleasant things and calamities but that they are the work of the Devil, say God did not send this or that, especially if it is just based on their underlying theology.

But I also cringe when I hear Calvinists say, "The reason God did this or that" or say that anything that happens is the will of God. For example, Tommy and Susie are Christians. They go to church together. They start dating. They go off in a car by themselves at night, and one thing leads to another, and they start kissing, and then end up fornicating. Well, if it happened, can we say it is God's will? I Thessalonians says it is the will of God to abstain from fornication.

I have heard of preachers saying the reason someone's little girl died is because God wanted to pick the prettiest daisies. If God doesn't say something, we shouldn't put words in his mouth.

I read a post from someone criticizing Charismatics who were trying to encourage an elderly woman with arthritis to have faith to be healed. He said the reason she had the arthritis was because God wanted to teach her a lesson through the suffering. I believe I asked him if he had divine revelation about the specific reason for her suffering, and if what he said were the case, maybe he should get a bucket of ice water and have the old woman soak her arthritic knuckles in them so that her pain could increase so that she could gain more of the spiritual benefits of her arthritis.

I've seen this sort of presumption from all types of preachers and individual Christians. But in some cases, for Charismatics, it is rational since the idea that God can reveal to an individual a reason that something happened is consistent with Charismatic beliefs on prophecy and revelation. It is also consistent with scripture. Though not every claim of knowing God's will about a situation is necessarily true.



I don't know about him blaspheming per se, but that is a controversial fellow. He has some people who still like him in that 'signs and wonders' movement he is in, and probably many who do not care for him. He was controversial, even among Charismatics, back when that big Lakeland thing was going on. My wife and I heard about him and watched him on a website. A minute or two was enough. He was talking himself, his calling, all the great things that were supposed to happen. We didn't watch much. I don't remember hearing about the Lord Jesus in the parts I watched.
Our belief system is based upon a God that is in control. Yours is not.

God prescribes that all should obey his commandments. These commandments tend to lead to life at its highest level of experience.

God decrees that mankind will not always obey his commandments. The refusals to obey God's commandments lead to punishment. This includes believers.

Decrees are absolutely sure. For instance, if a believer transgresses the commandments, he will suffer consequences.

And, these consequences will serve as an incentive for believers to correct their behavior, which satisfies God's decree that the righteous will grow in holiness.

I don't see any conflict unless you are a free-willer who cannot see the complexity of God's decretive will versus his prescriptive will, because he cannot reason in a complex manner. And, I fear that is the reality.

By the way, free-willers must make up weird explanations to support their weird beliefs, which likely leads to explanations like the "prettiest daisies" explanations. That is likely not coming from the Reformed camp, so please provide more details and I will continue my own analysis. If it is anectdotal, please admit it.

Regarding the woman with arthritis, who are you to claim one way or the other? You don't know God's will for this woman. The WOF claim is that there is no reason for the woman's suffering. If she is not healed, and she believes your theology, she only has herself to blame, or she can blame nothing. If she is a Reformed person, she would know God has purpose in her suffering, regardless, and she can have faith in this knowledge. Do you have any such comfort to offer this woman?

We can offer her hope regardless of her situation. God may heal according to his sovereign will, or he may not heal according to his sovereign will. Either way, she knows it is sovereign will in the Reformed worldview.

And, your worldview offers up the ability to be blamed for her lack of faithfulness. We don't do that. We don't pridefully and arrogantly claim that she is deficit in some way, with regards to faith. We know if she is saved, her life is in God's hands.

The cult I belonged to was basically Word of Faith. Those hypocrites visited doctors even though they believed it was a lack of faith, even their leaders. Even their "apostle" used doctors. I imagine it is the same with others in the charismatic movement, especially the ones who make money filling their cheeks up with botox injections.

And, like I have maintained, I do not see clear deliniations between Word of Faith, Pentecostal, and charismatic. If there are clear delineations, I don't see them. Even the ones who decry Word of Faith theology will make remarks that affirms their theology as I talk to them more and more.
 

presidente

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Our belief system is based upon a God that is in control. Yours is not.
How do you know what I believe about the sovereignty of God? You make a lot of comments like that, and it is rather rude.

I believe God is in control, but there are plenty of things in scripture that do not fit with the heavy deterministic lens that some Calvinists uses:

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

or

Jeremiah 18
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Having a Biblical world view is more important than the sense of certainty that comes from heavy determinism.

God decrees that mankind will not always obey his commandments.
Where did God decree that? What do you mean by that?

I don't see any conflict unless you are a free-willer who cannot see the complexity of God's decretive will versus his prescriptive will, because he cannot reason in a complex manner. And, I fear that is the reality.
Where does scripture teach that God has a decretive will and a presecriptive will? Some people's beliefs rely heavily on terms and concepts developed by theologians, rather than scripture. That seems to be the case of many, many cessationists on the topic of cessationism.

By the way, free-willers must make up weird explanations to support their weird beliefs, which likely leads to explanations like the "prettiest daisies" explanations. That is likely not coming from the Reformed camp, so please provide more details and I will continue my own analysis. If it is anectdotal, please admit it.
That's probably not something a Reformed preacher said. If there were a saying like that, it would have to be about tulips, not daisies.

Regarding the woman with arthritis, who are you to claim one way or the other? You don't know God's will for this woman. The WOF claim is that there is no reason for the woman's suffering.
I do not agree with WOFers, but I do not think any of them would say there is no reason for human suffering. They would allow for suffering through persecution. As far as Pentecostal go, there are Pentecostals who would recognize that people can learn things through suffering sickness, who also believe in healing.

I don't have any problem with someone sharing all the promises and teaching of scripture regarding healing with the woman, to help encourage her to believe God for healing. There are plenty of scriptures on that.

But it is possible for someone to know some of God's thoughts or attitudes toward a particular individual and a particular illness if the Lord reveals that specifically to the individually. Whether that happens or not, we still have the teaching of the Bible.

If she is not healed, and she believes your theology, she only has herself to blame, or she can blame nothing.
That is rude of you to tell me what I believe. If you were an elder of the church and anointed her and prayed for her, I might be tempted to blame your lack of faith.

If she is a Reformed person, she would know God has purpose in her suffering, regardless, and she can have faith in this knowledge. Do you have any such comfort to offer this woman?
You are assuming a false dichotomy, that seeing that God has a purpose in such a situation is contrary to believing in healing.

We can offer her hope regardless of her situation. God may heal according to his sovereign will, or he may not heal according to his sovereign will. Either way, she knows it is sovereign will in the Reformed worldview.
The elders could pray for her, anointing her with oil in the name of the Lord. Scripture says the prayer of faith will save the sick.

And, your worldview offers up the ability to be blamed for her lack of faithfulness.
This is your issue, not mine. I don't blame sick people. I believe we should encourage people to ask and keep on asking. Not all my prayers are answered instantly. Does that mean that I should not trust God for what I pray for?

I went through over a year of unemployment, doing a little small business that did not make very much money while I looked for something. I'd turned down a job at a Christian organization that required I make a vow, to the Lord a foolish one at that (impossible to keep all of it), so I was unemployed. I did pray for money and a job. It took me over a year to get a job. But the Lord fed my family and somehow kept us in a house, even though I went for months unsure of where the rent would come from. Now, I am employed and work from home during the current crisis. Should I have 'blamed myself' when my prayers about finances were not instantly answered, or should I have kept believing God for provision?


We know if she is saved, her life is in God's hands.
What about salvation? Would you say that if she believes the Gospel she will be saved if that is according to God's sovereign will, and otherwise not?
The cult I belonged to was basically Word of Faith. Those hypocrites visited doctors even though they believed it was a lack of faith, even their leaders. Even their "apostle" used doctors. I imagine it is the same with others in the charismatic movement, especially the ones who make money filling their cheeks up with botox injections.
Like I said, I am not from the WOF movement. In the churches I have gone to that believed in healing... as far as I can tell... the attitude was that God can heal through doctors, natural means, and through supernatural intervention. But if you have a choice to pray that God heal completely or simply 'guide the doctor's hands, I prefer the former. I remember praying for a young woman in college, when many of us from the Bible study gathered around to pray, that when she went to the doctor, the doctor would tell her he could find no evidence of her problem and that she would be completely healed. She told me later that was what happened. I'd rather have that than God guiding a doctor's hands while they cut me open.
And, like I have maintained, I do not see clear deliniations between Word of Faith, Pentecostal, and charismatic. If there are clear delineations, I don't see them. Even the ones who decry Word of Faith theology will make remarks that affirms their theology as I talk to them more and more.
Maybe because you have (or have until recently) had some unbiblical ideas when it comes to believing God for things and for healing. You apparently weren't aware of the connection between healing and faith in the gospels ('according to your faith be it unto you' and many similar passages.)

'Word of faith' is a Biblical phrase from Romans 10, so that is not what I am talking about, but the group that uses that label tend to believe that Jesus died spiritually in Hell after His death on the cross. Many of them have a very extreme view about calamities coming from the Devil and not from God-- at least those who accept Hagin's view on it. Some of the fund raising technique are rather unseemly. If you say, "I've got a cold" they might jump on your case and tell you you are making a negative confession. Those are things I haven't heard in a Pentecostal church. Pentecostals tend to be more like regular evangelicals, sometimes with 'livelier' worship music. I've never seen a Pentecostal preacher tell everyone to come to the front who wants to pledge $1000 for the new building, but you might see something like that in a WOF church. Pentecostals teach that God provides for our needs. But in a WOF church, you might hear sermons about needing to have money so that rich people will respect you when you tell them about the Gospel. Pentecostals have their own denominations, too. There are some Pentecostals who draw from some WOF ideas, too. But I haven't read the Jesus dies spiritually doctrine from Pentecostals or rebuking people for negative confessions, etc.

Word of Faith is a subset of the Charismatic movement. There are a wide variety of styles in Charismatic churches, and there are Charismatic churches where you don't hear or see those WOF doctrines and practices I mentioned above.
 

biker

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I don't think age can be a major factor. He's been a Word of Faith teacher for a LONG TIME.

He claims Jesus had to go to hell, and be born again. He believes God is a man about 6'2. And other typical Word of Faith nonsense.

I believe he, along with Joyce Meyer, claims Jesus was beat to a pulp by the devil after the crucifixion and that he was "born again" after this.


I think the "Hell" version from Copeland is heretical just like Calvin's was.

John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Sep 15th, 2009 | By Taylor Marshall | Category: Blog Posts
Years ago while listening to Hank Hanegraaff’s Bible Answer Man radio program, a caller called in about “Christ suffering in Hell.” Hank rightly explained that “Christ suffering in Hell” is not a biblical doctrine, but noted that the doctrine was held by John Calvin. Hank respectfully disagreed with Calvin.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I think the "Hell" version from Copeland is heretical just like Calvin's was.

John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Sep 15th, 2009 | By Taylor Marshall | Category: Blog Posts
Years ago while listening to Hank Hanegraaff’s Bible Answer Man radio program, a caller called in about “Christ suffering in Hell.” Hank rightly explained that “Christ suffering in Hell” is not a biblical doctrine, but noted that the doctrine was held by John Calvin. Hank respectfully disagreed with Calvin.
I don't think Calvin taught that, but I don't know since I don't pore over Calvin's teachings.

However, perhaps you can read Calvin's teaching yourself and see if Hank Hanegraaff fairly represented him:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/christdecended.html

Calvin may have believed the teaching of one of the creeds, which gives this indication. However, I don't hold that view.

Joyce Meyer claims that God showed her a revelation that validated this teaching. She didn't appeal to Scripture. She said she saw "her Jesus" with demons all over his back beating him.

And, this is not surprising that someone from TBN would appeal to their alleged personal revelations.