The 144k Jews In Heaven during the Great Tribulation.

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Jul 23, 2018
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#41
Lol, lift yourself up high much?
Your push back as you say is in error but you don't have ears to hear.

I do not believe in pre,my leanings are mid and possibly post. We will be spared GODS WRATH,but it does NOT say the ac 's persecution.
God is able to hide or deliver just as he did Noah,with the Ark,and Lot,
with the Angels.

What causes you to think all followers are NOT WAITING, WATCHING AND READY? Talk about judging! That's a sloppy statement to make.
glad you are ready!!!
Go for it.!!!
He is coming at an hour you least expect it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,737
13,109
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#42
I do not believe in pre,my leanings are mid and possibly post. We will be spared GODS WRATH, but it does NOT say the ac 's persecution.
Assuming what you have said is true, and assuming that every genuine Christian will refuse to take the Mark of the Beast, what you are suggesting is that the whole Church will be martyred. But that is definitely not what is revealed in Scripture: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

But there is an even more critical issue which you have bypassed. In order for the Antichrist to take total control of the whole world (Revelation 13) it is necessary that the divine Restrainer -- the Holy Spirit -- be "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2). Since the Holy Spirit came down from Heaven at Pentecost, if He is taken out of the way, He will return to Heaven. And since every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the Church will also be "taken out of the way". It is only when there is no restraint on evil that Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the Beast) can take full control for 42 months (1260 days or 3 1/2 years). And also be worshipped by everyone.

But since Moses and Elijah will be preaching the Gospel in Israel during those 3 1/2 years (Rev 11) many Jews will be converted and refuse the Mark, and will therefore become Tribulation saints and then martyrs (Rev 20). No doubt some Gentiles may also be converted at that time, but since God will send strong delusion upon the earth (2 Thess 2), those who rejected the Gospel and did not love the truth will be deceived and take the Mark and be damned (Rev 14).

So we really need to take all Scriptures into account and see that the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture is a divine necessity.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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#44
I guess if you omit the firstfruit thingy, you can just kinda blow them off.

They never got to heaven?

Believe it if you like.

I will go by what i have read and shown you.

Your denial also omits PURPOSE.
IOW, it leaves you open to ascribe what you want ,to them being firstfruits.

Wasn't it you that got all unnerved at the thought of harvest and firstfruits being connected?
Maybe not.
But i guess you can omit the firstfruits dynamic as well as the verses showing them in heaven.

IOW, LEAVE OUT PURPOSE.



I apologize for upsetting you but what is written is truth. Yet, I now stand ACCUSED and falsely I MIGHT ADD, by YOU, of 'omitting the firstfruit thingy'. If you wish a response you will need to post a question, NOT make a false accusation and hope for a reply.

You say you will go by 'what you have shown me' but all you have shown me are YOUR PERSONAL THOUGHTS AND BELIEFS and the same couple verses that don't say what you claim they say. If I can't see it written, then how am I to believe it KNOWING there are so many false prophets in the world?


How does my denial omit purpose? The only way would be if it DIDN'T SUPPORT the theory.


Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.



Isaiah 17:9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.





Isaiah 18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when He bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.
4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.
6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.
7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.





Jeremiah 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 8:18 When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.

19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.





Jeremiah 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.




Joel 1:8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.



Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.



Matthew 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Matthew 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.


Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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#46
Now remember there is no reason to deny those verses on rev 14 that place the 144k in heaven.
I simply read it with interest and long to see where that leads in Gods word.

But those with preconceived doctrine, received from their teachers, Must reframe it.

They literally have to.

It destroys the very pillars of their doctrine.

I am not sure WHY ANYONE, who is has been saved, BEING IN HEAVEN IS SUCH A BIG DEAL.

Do you not know what took place when Christ ROSE from the dead?

THE GRAVES WERE OPENED. ON THE LAST DAY. AND MANY CAME OUT. JUST AS PROMISED. THE POWER OF DEATH DEFEATED. NO LONGER BOUND TO DEATH BY 'break one break them all', 'under the law' sin, but THE LAMB SLAIN, the ransom paid, the GIFT OF SALVATION put forth, the FORGIVENESS OF SIN by the infinite value of the Willing Blood Sacrifice, DOING WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO.....starting a war in heaven....


If the DEAD don't rise, THEN CHRIST ISN'T RISEN. So simple yet it seems so hard to grasp. Don't know how many different ways he could have put it. Christ FIRST FRUITS OF


them that slept. NOT WILL BE. Are you ignorant of where those who 'are passed from death to life', will never see death, 'go to be where He is' etc.. are RIGHT NOW?

Well you wont be when He returns WITH THEM.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#48
I apologize for upsetting you but what is written is truth. Yet, I now stand ACCUSED and falsely I MIGHT ADD, by YOU, of 'omitting the firstfruit thingy'. If you wish a response you will need to post a question, NOT make a false accusation and hope for a reply.

You say you will go by 'what you have shown me' but all you have shown me are YOUR PERSONAL THOUGHTS AND BELIEFS and the same couple verses that don't say what you claim they say. If I can't see it written, then how am I to believe it KNOWING there are so many false prophets in the world?


How does my denial omit purpose? The only way would be if it DIDN'T SUPPORT the theory.


Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.



Isaiah 17:9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.





Isaiah 18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when He bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.
4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.
6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.
7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.





Jeremiah 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 8:18 When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.

19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.





Jeremiah 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.




Joel 1:8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.



Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.



Matthew 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Matthew 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.


Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
"""I apologize for upsetting you but what is written is truth. Yet, I now stand ACCUSED and falsely I MIGHT ADD"""
Who are you addressing?
You are making zero sense.

Reread my post and then read your weird response.

Silly.

Forget all that personal mess.
I am not here to play games
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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#50
I am not sure WHY ANYONE, who is has been saved, BEING IN HEAVEN IS SUCH A BIG DEAL.

Do you not know what took place when Christ ROSE from the dead?

THE GRAVES WERE OPENED. ON THE LAST DAY. AND MANY CAME OUT. JUST AS PROMISED. THE POWER OF DEATH DEFEATED. NO LONGER BOUND TO DEATH BY 'break one break them all', 'under the law' sin, but THE LAMB SLAIN, the ransom paid, the GIFT OF SALVATION put forth, the FORGIVENESS OF SIN by the infinite value of the Willing Blood Sacrifice, DOING WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO.....starting a war in heaven....


If the DEAD don't rise, THEN CHRIST ISN'T RISEN. So simple yet it seems so hard to grasp. Don't know how many different ways he could have put it. Christ FIRST FRUITS OF


them that slept. NOT WILL BE. Are you ignorant of where those who 'are passed from death to life', will never see death, 'go to be where He is' etc.. are RIGHT NOW?

Well you wont be when He returns WITH THEM.
"""If the DEAD don't rise, THEN CHRIST ISN'T RISEN. So simple yet it seems so hard to grasp. Don't know how many different ways he could have put it. Christ FIRST FRUITS OF"""

The 144k are called firstfruits.
You have yet to answer my question as to why they are CALLED THAT.

all you have done is over generalize the dynamic.

I am hoping it will dawn on you who they are without me having to answer for you.

Hint; it is the same dynamic as the harvest , illustrated every year.

That sums up Jesus as first fruits.

Then the parallel of the Jewish firstfruits.. In rev 14

Firstfruits always precedes main harvest..
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,026
5,216
113
#52
Hmmm,cop out.
What is your job?
Is it not the sames as every follower.
To share the word w/ o private interpretation?
see Peter

To rescue and support your brethren in love?
Forgive and it will be forgiven?

Reporting the word should be done per the word!

Do you not know the doctrine of the word is for reproof,correction,instruction.............?
I don’t think everyone realizes the Bible interprets itself completely and doesn’t need us to do it. We’re just meant to accept and believe
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,026
5,216
113
#53
What are they firstfruits of?
Why are they called firstfruits?
the church are the firstfruits those who believe the word of truth by which we are born again anyone born again is a first fruit

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

…Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:18, 21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the word of truth , the engrafted word ( New Testament ) that gives us new birth is the gospel the word spoken by Jesus

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s anyone who hears and actually believes the gospel they become the first fruits of creation and they have this promise unlike people who don’t receive the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

The church of Jesus Christ ( his body ) are the first fruits
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#54
The Bible teaches that Jesus comes once for His Saints (the pretrib rapture), and seven years later WITH his Saints at the Second Coming.
NO IT DOESN'T!

Jesus taught that it is false prophets and teachers that teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture (Matt 24v23-27), He said about His Coming:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matt 24v29-31

Paul committed Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus to Satan for execution because they were teaching wrong doctrine on the Second Coming and over-throwing the faith of Christians, do you think that God will think any different about you, when this (supposed) secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture you are teaching doesn't occur and over-throws Christian's faith? 1Tim 1v18-20, 2Tim 2v16-18, Matt 24v48-51, Rev 22v18,19.

I think not!
 
Dec 15, 2021
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216
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#55
"""I apologize for upsetting you but what is written is truth. Yet, I now stand ACCUSED and falsely I MIGHT ADD"""
Who are you addressing?
You are making zero sense.

Reread my post and then read your weird response.

Silly.

Forget all that personal mess.
I am not here to play games
You
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#56
the church are the firstfruits those who believe the word of truth by which we are born again anyone born again is a first fruit

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

…Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:18, 21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the word of truth , the engrafted word ( New Testament ) that gives us new birth is the gospel the word spoken by Jesus

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s anyone who hears and actually believes the gospel they become the first fruits of creation and they have this promise unlike people who don’t receive the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

The church of Jesus Christ ( his body ) are the first fruits
Ok good point...yes.
This is kinda what i am getting at.
( multiple dynamics of " first fruits")
Jesus =first fruits
Us =first fruits
The 144k =first fruits
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,026
5,216
113
#57
Ok good point...yes.
This is kinda what i am getting at.
( multiple dynamics of " first fruits")
Jesus =first fruits
Us =first fruits
The 144k =first fruits
yes I thought that’s what you were saying is the only reason I mentioned that . i think the concept of anyone “ in Christ “ is part of the first fruits harvest because he is the firstfuit

I think if we really consider the terminology and concepts like this

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this concept I believe is something very hard to actually believe were included in “his body “ are “ in him “ ect I think that’s showing us that we’re going to follow him when we left the flesh whether Jews or Gentile but it has become about who is in Christ

Just my thoughts though I believe the focus of God is completely on Christ and his disciples now no matter our race , gender nationality or anything other than purely whether we have true faith in Christ . And this is what includes us on the first resurrection because we accept the gospel now and pass from the condemnation of death

sort of the firstfruits

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then the latter group would be here

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems there is a living group in Christ and then those who are in thier graves raised in the end

I believe the first resurrection pertains to the firstfruits who don’t actually die when our body does because through Christ we have already died and rose and believed our judgement and come to repentance and remission of sins in him

if our sins are truly remitted death cannot hold us so if we follow what he’s saying we really do pass from death to
Life and don’t have to fear death any longer because when our body dies we’re going to live with him
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#58
yes I thought that’s what you were saying is the only reason I mentioned that . i think the concept of anyone “ in Christ “ is part of the first fruits harvest because he is the firstfuit

I think if we really consider the terminology and concepts like this

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this concept I believe is something very hard to actually believe were included in “his body “ are “ in him “ ect I think that’s showing us that we’re going to follow him when we left the flesh whether Jews or Gentile but it has become about who is in Christ

Just my thoughts though I believe the focus of God is completely on Christ and his disciples now no matter our race , gender nationality or anything other than purely whether we have true faith in Christ . And this is what includes us on the first resurrection because we accept the gospel now and pass from the condemnation of death

sort of the firstfruits

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then the latter group would be here

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems there is a living group in Christ and then those who are in thier graves raised in the end

I believe the first resurrection pertains to the firstfruits who don’t actually die when our body does because through Christ we have already died and rose and believed our judgement and come to repentance and remission of sins in him

if our sins are truly remitted death cannot hold us so if we follow what he’s saying we really do pass from death to
Life and don’t have to fear death any longer because when our body dies we’re going to live with him
Yes
I tend to focus on that as well.

So much of our walk involves focus and re focussing.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,026
5,216
113
#59
Yes
I tend to focus on that as well.

So much of our walk involves focus and re focussing.
amen we sometimes lose our way for a minute but like Peter walking on water with Jesus and began to sink , Jesus is always there if we reach out to set us back in the boat and strengthen our faith for the walk
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,623
564
113
#60
I haven't read all the posts in this thread------but what I have read it seems that you are thinking this Chapter is describing the 144;000 in heaven during the tribulation -----Correct me if I am wrong here as I have not read all 3 pages -----so I am surmising here only ------

I think
This Chapter 14 is John describing what events will take place after the tribulation in heaven -----the 144,000 are not in heaven until after the Tribulation period -----the 144;000 are the 12 tribes of Jews that God protects and are Filled with the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel to all people who are unbelievers here on earth during the 7 year tribulation and need to be saved -----along with the 2 Witnesses God sends -----who i believe is Elijah and Moses as these were the 2 who appeared with Jesus when he was transfigured on the mountain -and was witnessed by some disciples ------


https://www.bibleref.com/Revelation/14/Revelation-chapter-14.html

What does Revelation chapter 14 mean?
Between chapters 11 and 16, Revelation pauses its in-order description of the end times to introduce certain figures and highlight certain events. One of these events, shown in chapter 14, is a celebration which occurs very near the end of the tribulation.

John's vision here includes Jesus and the same 144,000 sealed believers who were described in chapter 7. These stalwart believers sing a song of praise to God while standing on Zion: the general area of the city of Jerusalem. The sealed believers are further described as spiritually pure, in stark contrast to the wicked people marked as worshippers of the Antichrist (Revelation 14:1–5).

Next John sees three angels delivering messages of warning and prophecy. These messages predict God's impending judgment on sin and evil. Included in these statements is a comment about those who accepted the mark of the beast, described in chapter 13. Those who take that mark are bound for eternal damnation—they are not believers. This further supports the idea that the mark of the beast is not some casual, hidden concept. Those who take it will know they are rejecting God by doing so. This passage ends with a word of encouragement for Christians who suffer persecution for their faith (Revelation 14:6–13).

The last section of chapter 14 depicts Jesus holding a sickle—a farming tool used to cut plants during the harvest. This passage symbolizes the return of Jesus, and the subsequent battle, in terms of a grape harvest. Just as mature grapes are fat and full of juice, the wickedness of unbelievers on earth will have reached a peak at this moment. Just as a winepress crushes and shreds grapes to make wine, the wrath of God will tear apart those who fight against Christ at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 14:14–20).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the 144,000 being the first fruit goes ----My view is

They are sealed by God ---they are not defiled ---they have kept themselves pure and Holy ---God purchased them from the earth to do God's service of preaching His word ---- they stay true to God's way and don't dabble in other false Religions -----

Greek word for first fruit
Strong's Concordance
aparché
Hence, in a transferred use, employed a. of persons consecrated to God, leading the rest in time:
of persons superior in excellence to others of the same class: so in Revelation 14:4 of a certain class of Christians sacred and dear to God and Christ beyond all others