The 2nd law of thermodynamics … "proves" God exists?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#41
Therefore, if you come across a system that is in order, an outside force MUST have acted on it in order to bring it into order. It COULDN'T have come into order on its own.

That's what evolutionists don't understand and can't admit. It ruins their whole theory.
many substances crystallize when they cool. that is a ((localized)) decrease in entropy simply by shedding heat.

we, not being physicists, should not assume that we understand physics better than an actual physicist does.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,322
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#42
many substances crystallize when they cool. that is a ((localized)) decrease in entropy simply by shedding heat.

we, not being physicists, should not assume that we understand physics better than an actual physicist does.
Ha. Physicists don't even understand physics. It'll probably take God to explain it to them... lol
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#43
Ha. Physicists don't even understand physics. It'll probably take God to explain it to them... lol
for sure

but i tjhink it's a. mistake Christians make that we start calling people who have a lot more knowledge of the subject idiots as soon as we learn one small thing.
it is not as though no scientist has ever taken a thermodynamics class
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#44
for sure

but i tjhink it's a. mistake Christians make that we start calling people who have a lot more knowledge of the subject idiots as soon as we learn one small thing.
it is not as though no scientist has ever taken a thermodynamics class
To be honest I never thought of the implications of the laws of thermodynamics as it relates to our Creator until AFTER I became a Christian.

It did make me wonder how everything got here in the first place, though, when I was trying to make sense of them.

Scientists just say we don't know and can't know. But some of us Do know.

Although its not really fair to use the laws of thermodynamics to prove the existence of God. They weren't really meant to be used that way. But the implication is obvious to the Christian, I think.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,322
1,646
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#45
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.

And,

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.


My mind went directly to the question "Well how did it get here, then???"

No one cares. That question is for philosophers...

I cared...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,908
5,736
113
#46
To be honest I never thought of the implications of the laws of thermodynamics as it relates to our Creator until AFTER I became a Christian.

It did make me wonder how everything got here in the first place, though, when I was trying to make sense of them.

Scientists just say we don't know and can't know. But some of us Do know.

Although its not really fair to use the laws of thermodynamics to prove the existence of God. They weren't really meant to be used that way. But the implication is obvious to the Christian, I think.
i think it may serve better to prove the existence of sin and the judgement of it than the existence of God.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,200
13,630
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#47
Like it says....the things seen are not made of what they appear to be made of...............

The "Observable Universe" is temporary and made of that which man CANNOT see......

I think a lot about the vibratory sequence of atoms and how the human eye is tuned to particular frequencies of light if you will....imagine if we could re-tune our eyes or build glasses that allow us to see the vibratory sequence of the universe.....

In reality it is one big "matrix" or "construct" for lack of a better word or two...........
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
10,205
5,325
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#48
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.

And,

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.


My mind went directly to the question "Well how did it get here, then???"

No one cares. That question is for philosophers...

I cared...
I should think we would all care. If we care about time and its relationship to matter and energy we would have a better understanding of God and how He circumvents time. We have so much to learn. Once we are with God, we should be able to grasp how these laws interact.:cool:
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,919
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#49
In the land of horses, we are not concerned with "physics" and other sciences.

we know how to work the coffee machine, thats about all the physics i need to know. The gypsy lifestyle. WE OUT HERE.

I havent gotten ANY education past the MANDATORY. Not even HS!
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,064
703
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#50
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.

And,

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered in form.


My mind went directly to the question "Well how did it get here, then???"

No one cares. That question is for philosophers...

I cared...
Genesis 1&2 has the details of how everything got here.

1. All existence is nothing but a thought and all existence comes from TRUTH

2. Existence is also a contrast between two so that both may have a meaning. Example; temporary is created so that eternal may have a meaning, without the temporary, eternal may not mean much.

3. God created from His deep thoughts (also referred to in the bible as deep waters) and the sequence of creation is as detailed in Gen 1; there was deep darkness (means -ve energy which hinders anything from existing), Light is the first thing to be actualized from the mind (God) and light here means the deep darkness is overcome (doesn't necessarily mean visible light). From this light we now get everything else (matter/energy) and the creation continues through day six where the heart of a man finds a dwelling

4. God does not just create but He creates through the heart (mind) of a man. It is through the mind of a man that the contrast of two things makes existence possible. Contrast between light and darkness makes them have a meaning, without darkness there's no such thing as light.

5. So God creates by becoming the creation Himself in the mind of man. Man forgets and truth is lost and in its place a lie (sin) is found and therefore all creation is in jeopardy and now all creation decays. But this is by design so that Truth/Eternal/Good may have meaning when they are contrasted by Lies/temporary/Evil

6. All existence is a loop with the beginning and the end at the same point and eternal proceeding from that point also.

7. The heart of a man is very crucial and it is what is referred t as the garden of Eden in Gen 2. It sis before God created anything, he had prepared a garden and made man responsible for it.
And throughout the bible we start to see hints of what God is doing and how He will forget the old heavens and earth and also how He will punish those that forget Him- He will forget them also:

Isa 65:17For behold, I will create new heavens and a newearth. The former things will not be remembered,nor will they come to mind.
Deut 9:13The LORD also said to me, “I have seen this people, and indeed, they are a stiff-necked people. 14Let Me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. Then I will makeyou into a nation mightier and greater than they.”
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,908
5,736
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#51
If the entropy of a system always increases then how is there any order to anything unless someone from outside the system caused it to be orderly?
increased order / decreased entropy in one part of a thermodynamic system is offset by decreased order / increased entropy in another part of the system.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,908
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#52
"
“”The very lack of evidence is thus treated as evidence; the absence of smoke proves that the fire is very carefully hidden.
C.S. Lewis (in a glimpse of clarity)

"

absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence ;)
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
341
83
#53
I think it would be better to state it in laymans terms rather than in scientific ones.

What the 2nd law of thermodynamics says, in laymans terms, is that ANY system tends to disorder over time.

No system goes the other way from disorder to order.


Therefore, if you come across a system that is in order, an outside force MUST have acted on it in order to bring it into order. It COULDN'T have come into order on its own.

That's what evolutionists don't understand and can't admit. It ruins their whole theory.


I do love the conclusion you arrived at. But in fairness to the scientists, specifically the engineering thought process behind thermodynamics, they will rebuttal by throwing out a knuckle ball they personally call, "randomness.." And will claim, "this is the missing link that solves the linkage of evolution" that could spawn a mammal from literally a 3-D dimensional object from the perspective of the mammal (a plant).

In reality however, they create dimensions of evolution to throw you off tangent. You will begin with DNA, some how jump to selective process, all to find yourself believing natural process, which is why you end up in randomness by following their deceptions.

Yes, Darwin was very detailed in his lineage, or so, he thought he was. But those who convert to Darwinism, don't follow the typical process of trying to prove your theory wrong to break through to the next best thing. Oh No, they spend time making mazes that when you look at a diagram of an evolutionary leg, you are looking at the work of someone who is severely suffering from psychological disorders. They are intelligent to hide their work, but are dumber than a doorknob at reasoning that maybe it is just possible someone is going discover your trickery.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,908
5,736
113
#54
I do love the conclusion you arrived at. But in fairness to the scientists, specifically the engineering thought process behind thermodynamics, they will rebuttal by throwing out a knuckle ball they personally call, "randomness.." And will claim, "this is the missing link that solves the linkage of evolution" that could spawn a mammal from literally a 3-D dimensional object from the perspective of the mammal (a plant).
hi, I'm also a physicist. at least, one of my degrees says so.

what do you mean by 'engineering thought process behind thermodynamics'?

the thermodynamic laws are stated as fundamental physical properties of the universe. an engineer might explain why something they built doesn't turn out right by appealing to 'randomness' - - but that would be substituting this word for 'variation in process that we don't understand or know how to control' - - but thermodynamic laws are not in the same category as limits on manufacturing precision; they are fundamental principles of how the universe works. the counterargument to questiona about the validity of evolution with respect to the second law isn't 'well its random' it's that this argument is fundamentally misapplying the law because the law only applies to a closed system, and a single organism or indeed the whole planet is simply not a closed system. the corresponding entropy increase for an increase in order within an organism is elsewhere in the thermodynamic system, outside the organism, or even in the heat generated and shed by the organism or cell itself.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
341
83
#55
hi, I'm also a physicist. at least, one of my degrees says so.

what do you mean by 'engineering thought process behind thermodynamics'?

the thermodynamic laws are stated as fundamental physical properties of the universe. an engineer might explain why something they built doesn't turn out right by appealing to 'randomness' - - but that would be substituting this word for 'variation in process that we don't understand or know how to control' - - but thermodynamic laws are not in the same category as limits on manufacturing precision; they are fundamental principles of how the universe works. the counterargument to questiona about the validity of evolution with respect to the second law isn't 'well its random' it's that this argument is fundamentally misapplying the law because the law only applies to a closed system, and a single organism or indeed the whole planet is simply not a closed system. the corresponding entropy increase for an increase in order within an organism is elsewhere in the thermodynamic system, outside the organism, or even in the heat generated and shed by the organism or cell itself.


How they visibly saw evidence and then used picked/chosen/selected words to describe their explanation of thermodynamics. Plus in scientific method, it's not an actual method until mathematics is applied to prove the theory mathematically.
 

Mission21

Pathfinder
Mar 12, 2019
167
159
43
#56
To be honest I never thought of the implications of the laws of thermodynamics as it relates to our Creator until AFTER I became a Christian.

It did make me wonder how everything got here in the first place, though, when I was trying to make sense of them.

Scientists just say we don't know and can't know. But some of us Do know.

Although its not really fair to use the laws of thermodynamics to prove the existence of God. They weren't really meant to be used that way. But the implication is obvious to the Christian, I think.
Good comment.
I had similar questions.
- When I was taking physics courses in college..many years ago.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,874
924
113
#57
Are you claiming therefore, the sum of the entropies of the participating bodies must decrease, rather than naturally increasing to find our way back to Adam/Eve?

I do not see it ever possible to revert back to its beginning. I do however see it creating something newer by using what was already established. It's kind of like a biologist playing God with single cells until they force an unnatural event to spawn.
One thing is a person will never find God through a microscope. God is not a man as us. He is not made up of the rudiments atoms or molecules of this world. I am not saying its useless to discuss but it has nothing to do with the gospel . We beleive the creation account because we believe the gospel. Creation is simply the beginning of the gospel

We do not know Christ through secular empirical science .They must walk by sight . They simply do not believe in a eternal God not seen. .Prescriptions like below are foolish to those who have no faith. Neither can they know they are interpreted by the prescriptions .The Christians atomic microscope for walking by faith ( the unseen spiritually revealed ) .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

Secondly we cannot go back to the beginning from before he corrupted the whole first creation. (Back to the future) First the word of God does not inform us when Christ corrupted the whole creation , which seems to be day three . Before the Law of Thermodynamics had its beginning, day four.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19

In the new order the Sun and the moon the temporal time keepers will no longer be needed just as it was or seems it was for the first three days. In the new heavens and earth the sun and the moon will be under our feet . we wil not be under the Sun the realm we do live in . Nothing new here.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. Revelation 21:22-25

I think possibly knowing beforehand because some pagan religion did worship the Sun as the source of life therefore it is not mentioned until the fourth day making thermodynamics the god of this world . Replace heat energy with Spirit energy .

Psalm 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.