The 67-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem

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louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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86
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#1
1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 describes a scene where Gods wrath has fallen upon to the uttermost those who killed the Lord and the prophets. In my opinion this uttermost wrath would be the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century.
The faithless in Jerusalem had also just a few years earlier exiled all believing in Christ Jews--with the exception of the apostles (Acts 8:1), and so may also be part of the reason why the Lord removed Himself from the hearts of the faithless in Jerusalem causing them to revolt against Roman rule that brought about their destruction.


1 Thessalonians 2:15 [FONT=&quot]Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:[/FONT]16 [FONT=&quot]Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.[/FONT]
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#2
1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 describes a scene where Gods wrath has fallen upon to the uttermost those who killed the Lord and the prophets. In my opinion this uttermost wrath would be the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century.
The faithless in Jerusalem had also just a few years earlier exiled all believing in Christ Jews--with the exception of the apostles (Acts 8:1), and so may also be part of the reason why the Lord removed Himself from the hearts of the faithless in Jerusalem causing them to revolt against Roman rule that brought about their destruction.


1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

I think it started in Paul’s day and continues to today.. Gods wrath is ongoing, and will continue until it peaks at the time of Jacobs trouble. Where Isreal will finally repent of her sins.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#3
I think it started in Paul’s day and continues to today.. Gods wrath is ongoing, and will continue until it peaks at the time of Jacobs trouble. Where Isreal will finally repent of her sins.
We the faithful in Christ are Israel (Romans 9:6-8).

Romans 9:6 [FONT=&quot]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.[/FONT]8 [FONT=&quot]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#4
We the faithful in Christ are Israel (Romans 9:6-8).

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Um no. Isreal is the enemy of the gospel because of belief, but believed because of the promises. They are blinded in part.

There is no jew or greek.. We are one in christ.

But Physical Israel is its own entity.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
63
#5
1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 describes a scene where Gods wrath has fallen upon to the uttermost those who killed the Lord and the prophets. In my opinion this uttermost wrath would be the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century.
The faithless in Jerusalem had also just a few years earlier exiled all believing in Christ Jews--with the exception of the apostles (Acts 8:1), and so may also be part of the reason why the Lord removed Himself from the hearts of the faithless in Jerusalem causing them to revolt against Roman rule that brought about their destruction.


1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
When the last Christians left Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit left with them, was withdrawn, and Jerusalem was destroyed.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#6
Um no. Isreal is the enemy of the gospel because of belief, but believed because of the promises. They are blinded in part.

There is no jew or greek.. We are one in christ.

But Physical Israel is its own entity.
I guess we see Paul's description in Romans 9:6-9 of who true Israel is differently.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#7
With the logical assessment that 1 Thess refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 67-70 AD; this then provides even greater support for the book of Revelation having been written after Jerusalem's destruction, otherwise the book of Revelation would have to precede 1 Thess.
 
Mar 14, 2011
75,342
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#8
I guess we see Paul's description in Romans 9:6-9 of who true Israel is differently.
Yes we do.

Paul is discussing the question of did God make a mistake choosing Isreal in romans 9.

But paul said over and over, there is no difference, jew or greek, we are all one in christ.

The church did not replace Israel.
 
Mar 14, 2011
75,342
17,160
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#9
With the logical assessment that 1 Thess refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 67-70 AD; this then provides even greater support for the book of Revelation having been written after Jerusalem's destruction, otherwise the book of Revelation would have to precede 1 Thess.

I disagree, Because the things spoken of in revelation could not have occurred in 70 AD.

Again, God has been punishing Isreal from the time Christ left until today. And he will continue it until the time of Jacobs trouble.. (or the tribulation spoken of by Christ in matt 24, WHich would be stopped only by his return to earth.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
63
#10
Yes we do.

Paul is discussing the question of did God make a mistake choosing Isreal in romans 9.

But paul said over and over, there is no difference, jew or greek, we are all one in christ.

The church did not replace Israel.
Try this wording,

The kingdom did not replace Israel.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
410
0
#11
With the logical assessment that 1 Thess refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 67-70 AD; this then provides even greater support for the book of Revelation having been written after Jerusalem's destruction, otherwise the book of Revelation would have to precede 1 Thess.
All I have been able to find on the presumed date of the writing of those letters to the Thessalonians, puts the dates as in the early 50s AD.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#12
Yes we do.

Paul is discussing the question of did God make a mistake choosing Isreal in romans 9.

But paul said over and over, there is no difference, jew or greek, we are all one in christ.


The church did not replace Israel.
The "we" who are all one in Christ are all who believe in Christ's Way.
Carnal Israel, along with all carnal unbelievers, are not the "we" who are all one in Christ.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#14
All I have been able to find on the presumed date of the writing of those letters to the Thessalonians, puts the dates as in the early 50s AD.
So then what is this uttermost wrath that has fallen upon those who killed Jesus and the prophets in 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16, if not their destruction in 67-70 AD?

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
 
Mar 14, 2011
75,342
17,160
113
#15
So then what is this uttermost wrath that has fallen upon those who killed Jesus and the prophets in 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16, if not their destruction in 67-70 AD?

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
what can be more uttermost punishment than to be rejected by God?

God took what he promised them and gave it to the gentiles.. And then turned his back on them as a nation. What Titus did to them in 70 Ad was just a part of that, And again, as I said, it continues today..
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#16
Try this wording,

The kingdom did not replace Israel.
I can only repeat my former response, that we who are believers in Christ's Way are true Israel. The kingdom has always been about the faith.
 
Mar 14, 2011
75,342
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#17
I agree that the things spoken of in Revelation did not occur in 70 AD. That was the point that I made.

ok forgive me, I misunderstood you. However, I still disagree with your assessment.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#18
I can only repeat my former response, that we who are believers in Christ's Way are true Israel. The kingdom has always been about the faith.

i agree, it has always been about faith. Even before Isreal became an entity,

Thats why we are not true Isreal. We are part of the family of Adam and Eve and Noah and Jonah and abraham, Who were children of God by faith..
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#19
what can be more uttermost punishment than to be rejected by God?

God took what he promised them and gave it to the gentiles.. And then turned his back on them as a nation. What Titus did to them in 70 Ad was just a part of that, And again, as I said, it continues today..
Let's put this into perspective. Someone goes and tells a certain group of people that Gods uttermost wrath has come upon another group of people because God is rejecting them, would not convince many people with that statement.
 
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louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#20
i agree, it has always been about faith. Even before Isreal became an entity,

Thats why we are not true Isreal. We are part of the family of Adam and Eve and Noah and Jonah and abraham, Who were children of God by faith..
Everyone prior to Christ's physical appearance on earth who believed in love and mercy, believed in Christs Way and were and are part of the kingdom. Look at the Samaritan in Luke 10 who never heard of Christ.