The Absence of Free Will

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#1
What does a world look like in the absence of free will. I understand this will knock on the Calvinist door but it also knocks on the atheists door also. And the atheist is who I usually spend time debating as to why I am challenging that worldview and that view has unknowingly persuaded other Christians. The world of a true materialist is a world absent of free will.

Before I explain the a world absent of free will, I will define my key words.

Libertarianism Free will: I hold the Libertarianism view which is the concept of free will that requires the agent to be able to take more than one possible course of action under a given set of circumstances. ( Not related to politics)

Interactionism or interactionist dualism: is the theory in the philosophy of the mind which holds that matter and mind are two distinct and independent substances that exert causal effects on one another.

Metaphysics: is a branch of philosophy that explores the nature of being, existence, and reality. It does not explore religious beliefs and laws created by man, but rather, it explores the immutable laws of nature, set by The Creator, God/Universal Presence, in the creation of the Universe. The observed affects of a unseen cause.

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.

Matter: In the classical physics observed in everyday life, matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume. All everyday objects that we can touch are ultimately composed of atoms.

Primordial soup: is a term introduced by the Soviet biologist Alexander Oparin. In 1924, he proposed the theory of the origin of life on Earth through the transformation, during the gradual chemical evolution of molecules that contain carbon in the primordial soup.

Evolution: the scientific theory explaining the appearance of new species and varieties through the action of various biological mechanisms (such as natural selection, genetic mutation or drift, and hybridization.

Animal instincts: Instinct is an inherent behavior; a fixed action pattern that is unlearned. Animals are born with certain instincts which are common to all those in their breed. Some instinctual behaviors require a certain amount of maturation before they begin. The most obvious one is the instinct to mate and propagate.

Herd: is a social group of certain animals of the same species. Bonded together to better their chances of survival.

Sociobiology is a field of biology that aims to examine and explain social behavior in terms of evolution.

As described above in materialism the only thing that exists is the physical realm, the natural realm or made of matter. All of life on Earth came from a natural cause. The most held theory is called the primordial soup. We first began through a random event by a systematic game of chance in a billions of years timeframe.

Many theories suggest how the primordial soup came to be but one day all the elements for life came together and began a gradual chemical evolution of molecules. This gradual change is usually what the secular scientific world calls evolution.

Speed up time from soup, to fish, to vertebrate mammal, to ape, to caveman, and finally to modern human.

Where did free will enter the biological mix?

Well it couldn't of under a only natural cause. Everything is a chemical reaction. The brain is all material and thus only reacts to its surroundings. We are in many ways just more Intelligent animals that are predetermined by natural selection, instincts inherited by past species like the ape, environmental factors like survival of the fittest, and robots reacting to chemical reactions.

This is how a true materialist must deny the idea of a objective morality. They must deny sin, evil and good. Everything is subjective and truth is only true to the individual as they are only responding to the environment from internal evolutionary programming.

Under this explanation. What kind of world would this be if truly followed?

1. Obviously morality couldn't exist
2. Just laws wouldn't exist
3. Justice wouldn't exist
4. Life isn't sacred
5. Sin doesn't exist
6. In the Animal kingdom whoever is the strongest controls the environment. Everyone else responds to the strongests actions in order to survive.

Examples: Someone like Hitler couldn't be judged by others because good and evil doesn't exist. His actions was only him responding to his brain. In reaction he was only surviving in a herd type of complex. The sociobiological response led to his choices of enacting genocide, eugenics and environmental control of surrounding countries. All in order to survive and protect his herd.

Laws are just subjective and change with environmental factors, human needs, and the top dogs actions.

Justice is a illusion because technically no right and wrong exists. Just survival.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So what happens if from a theological perspective if we use the absence of free will concept? Well we must first examine what free will looks like before comparing the absence of free will.

In more detail free will is
1.The Man is the origin and cause of his own actions.

2: The Man, in most cases, will have the ability to choose between 2 or more options. And whichever option he chooses, he did not have to make that choice. He could have chosen one of the alternatives.

3: The Man’s choice was undetermined. Nothing internal or external to the man causally determined the man to make the choice he did. His choice was uncaused or undetermined.

Interactionist dualism is simply the mind and brain are separate but work together. The mind is metaphysical while the brain is physically material.

Interactionism was propounded by the French rationalist philosopher Rene Descartes (1596–1650), and continues to be associated with him. Descartes posited that the body, being physical matter, was characterized by spatial extension but not by thought and feeling, while the mind, being a separate substance, had no spatial extension but could think and feel.

So Mind= thinking and feeling
Brain= physical response to the mind.
"I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am"​
-Rene Descartes

This simple sentence is a mental exercise that shows we are free thinkers. I doubt and think shows a boundary beyond just instincts or chemical responses.

The evidence of morality is evidence for God. The moral law is evidence of a metaphysical right and wrong universal standard that we all knowingly or unknowingly react to. Also proving immaterial things exist.

A world without free will but belief in God means everything is predetermined. God is the author of sin and evil. If free will doesn't exist neither was the actions of Satan. Everything was predetermined by God.

Now obviously in light of the evidence for free will, morality, and the characteristics of God being all just, all good, and Holy. A God who is the author of sin and evil isnt the God of the Bible.

A world with God and absence of free will is also a world absence of morality, absence of just laws, absence of true justice, and life predetermined is every action also is within God's will including Hitlers.

Conclusion:

A Atheistic worldview just doesn't follow reality or any belief without free will. Free will is a tricky thing to pretend it doesn't exist.

If libertarian free will does not exist, rationality and knowledge do not exist. If all things are causally determined, then that includes all thoughts and beliefs.’ If our thoughts and beliefs are forced upon us, and we could not have chosen better beliefs, then we are simply left assuming that our determined beliefs are good (let alone true).

Except we also use the laws of logic to reason and come to a rational explanation for the reality we live in. Therefore for anyone to debate against free will they must use reason and logic and proving free will at the same time. Otherwise you must admit your not really thinking but only reacting.

If this sounds confusing. It can be when you start trying to deny reality.

FB_IMG_1568526215694.jpg
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
#2
I dont believe in free will! ROAST ME! :giggle:
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
1,878
433
83
39
#3
A very well thought out comment, and I really agree with you on everything you said, only I see it a little bit different. I believe we all have a God given agency, (and am defining agency as: the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power) we make choices, no doubt. If we didn't then God giving us the Law, or really the path to life in truth as I see it now. It's not just the "list of rules" we tend to think of it as sometimes still, and only can think of it this way in the flesh. This was why the ONLY way to see the problem is through direct revelation from our Creator. In the flesh we are lost in the dark and incapable of ever having a clue of what's missings even missing nd without any hope of correcting it.

I know that went a little wide of what we are talking about, but I think helps set up how I have come to see this free will thing. After setting some groundwork up there saying that I 100% agree we have choice, no doubt at all, ever. I in no way think we are robots, at all, ever. I do however have I problem with the term "free" will because I believe our will is ultimately governed by our nature, be that of sin, or of the Spirit. These two verses illustrate what I mean well.

Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

So as far as FREE will I do not believe that it's completely free when we are fallen or in Christ. We are servants (slaves) or one are the other, which to me suggest never really "free" in the way that a sinner can NEVER please the Father even though the sinner can do good things for others, and on the flip side the one born again of His Spirit and now spiritually alive and reconciled into God as we were created to be in truth, can still make poor choices that dishonor God and everyone around them. When this takes place and we do find ourselves wrong and outside of His will, His Spirit draws us back to him to deal with everything in truth and continue to follow Him. We learn from every single one o0f these exs[periances and He builds us up for His purpose in these ways so we might glorify Him. Holla-boo-ya!!!:cool::p

So while I would never ever ever say we didn't have choice, everything would be pointless if this was the case, it still amazes me beyond fear, awe, wonder, reverence how He is sovereign and works within our choices and wills to bring about His kingdom for His glory!!!!

So I hope this helps explain the perspective at least I hold, but sometimes a little incite helps us to understand each other better and hopefully show that God can be trusted to guide all His children to truth and even though we made believe the same thing a little differently that we can fully trust God to lead them and us to all truth when we come together,and unite in His name to glorify the KING of everybody!!!:D:p:D(y)(y)(y):love::D
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
#4
My view: Nobody can obey without God's grace.

I am on Augustine bandwagon when it comes to tha: "Lord command what you will and grant what you command!” "

Why? Because ORIGINAL SIN. There is a reason no one has ever kept all the commandments of God perfectly, NOR NEVER WILL. Jesus was born of a virgin, WHY? Had he been born like you and me from a regular man's seed, it would be the SAME THING all over again, sin sin and more sin!
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,634
296
83
#5
What does a world look like in the absence of free will. I understand this will knock on the Calvinist door but it also knocks on the atheists door also. And the atheist is who I usually spend time debating as to why I am challenging that worldview and that view has unknowingly persuaded other Christians. The world of a true materialist is a world absent of free will.

Before I explain the a world absent of free will, I will define my key words.

Libertarianism Free will: I hold the Libertarianism view which is the concept of free will that requires the agent to be able to take more than one possible course of action under a given set of circumstances. ( Not related to politics)

Interactionism or interactionist dualism: is the theory in the philosophy of the mind which holds that matter and mind are two distinct and independent substances that exert causal effects on one another.

Metaphysics: is a branch of philosophy that explores the nature of being, existence, and reality. It does not explore religious beliefs and laws created by man, but rather, it explores the immutable laws of nature, set by The Creator, God/Universal Presence, in the creation of the Universe. The observed affects of a unseen cause.

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.

Matter: In the classical physics observed in everyday life, matter is any substance that has mass and takes up space by having volume. All everyday objects that we can touch are ultimately composed of atoms.

Primordial soup: is a term introduced by the Soviet biologist Alexander Oparin. In 1924, he proposed the theory of the origin of life on Earth through the transformation, during the gradual chemical evolution of molecules that contain carbon in the primordial soup.

Evolution: the scientific theory explaining the appearance of new species and varieties through the action of various biological mechanisms (such as natural selection, genetic mutation or drift, and hybridization.

Animal instincts: Instinct is an inherent behavior; a fixed action pattern that is unlearned. Animals are born with certain instincts which are common to all those in their breed. Some instinctual behaviors require a certain amount of maturation before they begin. The most obvious one is the instinct to mate and propagate.

Herd: is a social group of certain animals of the same species. Bonded together to better their chances of survival.

Sociobiology is a field of biology that aims to examine and explain social behavior in terms of evolution.

As described above in materialism the only thing that exists is the physical realm, the natural realm or made of matter. All of life on Earth came from a natural cause. The most held theory is called the primordial soup. We first began through a random event by a systematic game of chance in a billions of years timeframe.

Many theories suggest how the primordial soup came to be but one day all the elements for life came together and began a gradual chemical evolution of molecules. This gradual change is usually what the secular scientific world calls evolution.

Speed up time from soup, to fish, to vertebrate mammal, to ape, to caveman, and finally to modern human.

Where did free will enter the biological mix?

Well it couldn't of under a only natural cause. Everything is a chemical reaction. The brain is all material and thus only reacts to its surroundings. We are in many ways just more Intelligent animals that are predetermined by natural selection, instincts inherited by past species like the ape, environmental factors like survival of the fittest, and robots reacting to chemical reactions.

This is how a true materialist must deny the idea of a objective morality. They must deny sin, evil and good. Everything is subjective and truth is only true to the individual as they are only responding to the environment from internal evolutionary programming.

Under this explanation. What kind of world would this be if truly followed?

1. Obviously morality couldn't exist
2. Just laws wouldn't exist
3. Justice wouldn't exist
4. Life isn't sacred
5. Sin doesn't exist
6. In the Animal kingdom whoever is the strongest controls the environment. Everyone else responds to the strongests actions in order to survive.

Examples: Someone like Hitler couldn't be judged by others because good and evil doesn't exist. His actions was only him responding to his brain. In reaction he was only surviving in a herd type of complex. The sociobiological response led to his choices of enacting genocide, eugenics and environmental control of surrounding countries. All in order to survive and protect his herd.

Laws are just subjective and change with environmental factors, human needs, and the top dogs actions.

Justice is a illusion because technically no right and wrong exists. Just survival.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So what happens if from a theological perspective if we use the absence of free will concept? Well we must first examine what free will looks like before comparing the absence of free will.

In more detail free will is
1.The Man is the origin and cause of his own actions.

2: The Man, in most cases, will have the ability to choose between 2 or more options. And whichever option he chooses, he did not have to make that choice. He could have chosen one of the alternatives.

3: The Man’s choice was undetermined. Nothing internal or external to the man causally determined the man to make the choice he did. His choice was uncaused or undetermined.

Interactionist dualism is simply the mind and brain are separate but work together. The mind is metaphysical while the brain is physically material.

Interactionism was propounded by the French rationalist philosopher Rene Descartes (1596–1650), and continues to be associated with him. Descartes posited that the body, being physical matter, was characterized by spatial extension but not by thought and feeling, while the mind, being a separate substance, had no spatial extension but could think and feel.

So Mind= thinking and feeling
Brain= physical response to the mind.
"I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am"​
-Rene Descartes

This simple sentence is a mental exercise that shows we are free thinkers. I doubt and think shows a boundary beyond just instincts or chemical responses.

The evidence of morality is evidence for God. The moral law is evidence of a metaphysical right and wrong universal standard that we all knowingly or unknowingly react to. Also proving immaterial things exist.

A world without free will but belief in God means everything is predetermined. God is the author of sin and evil. If free will doesn't exist neither was the actions of Satan. Everything was predetermined by God.

Now obviously in light of the evidence for free will, morality, and the characteristics of God being all just, all good, and Holy. A God who is the author of sin and evil isnt the God of the Bible.

A world with God and absence of free will is also a world absence of morality, absence of just laws, absence of true justice, and life predetermined is every action also is within God's will including Hitlers.

Conclusion:

A Atheistic worldview just doesn't follow reality or any belief without free will. Free will is a tricky thing to pretend it doesn't exist.

If libertarian free will does not exist, rationality and knowledge do not exist. If all things are causally determined, then that includes all thoughts and beliefs.’ If our thoughts and beliefs are forced upon us, and we could not have chosen better beliefs, then we are simply left assuming that our determined beliefs are good (let alone true).

Except we also use the laws of logic to reason and come to a rational explanation for the reality we live in. Therefore for anyone to debate against free will they must use reason and logic and proving free will at the same time. Otherwise you must admit your not really thinking but only reacting.

If this sounds confusing. It can be when you start trying to deny reality.

View attachment 204151
God gave man the freedom as to how he wants to live his life here on earth. There are many scriptures where God asks man to choose certain things. That's why the world is in such a mess, due to the bad choices man has made by his own intelligence without seeking the counsel of God. Jesus said, "I thank you Lord, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of Jesus's doctrine) from the wise and prudent and have revealed them unto babes". God did not give man the ability to choose his eternal destiny, because by his foreknowledge he knew that no one would seek him, Psalms 53:2.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#6
My view: Nobody can obey without God's grace.

I am on Augustine bandwagon when it comes to tha: "Lord command what you will and grant what you command!” "

Why? Because ORIGINAL SIN. There is a reason no one has ever kept all the commandments of God perfectly, NOR NEVER WILL. Jesus was born of a virgin, WHY? Had he been born like you and me from a regular man's seed, it would be the SAME THING all over again, sin sin and more sin!
When you say quote, " My view: Nobody can obey without God's grace."

What do you mean by that? Are you a determinist? Or are you saying we are completely without free will? A determinist as in every action is determined by God and therefore absent of free will.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
310
63
#7
John 7: 17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Joshua 24:15-16, " 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods,

Proverbs 3:5-7, " 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. 7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.

Free will is reaal and every living being has it.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#8
A very well thought out comment, and I really agree with you on everything you said, only I see it a little bit different. I believe we all have a God given agency, (and am defining agency as: the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power) we make choices, no doubt. If we didn't then God giving us the Law, or really the path to life in truth as I see it now. It's not just the "list of rules" we tend to think of it as sometimes still, and only can think of it this way in the flesh. This was why the ONLY way to see the problem is through direct revelation from our Creator. In the flesh we are lost in the dark and incapable of ever having a clue of what's missings even missing nd without any hope of correcting it.

I know that went a little wide of what we are talking about, but I think helps set up how I have come to see this free will thing. After setting some groundwork up there saying that I 100% agree we have choice, no doubt at all, ever. I in no way think we are robots, at all, ever. I do however have I problem with the term "free" will because I believe our will is ultimately governed by our nature, be that of sin, or of the Spirit. These two verses illustrate what I mean well.

Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

So as far as FREE will I do not believe that it's completely free when we are fallen or in Christ. We are servants (slaves) or one are the other, which to me suggest never really "free" in the way that a sinner can NEVER please the Father even though the sinner can do good things for others, and on the flip side the one born again of His Spirit and now spiritually alive and reconciled into God as we were created to be in truth, can still make poor choices that dishonor God and everyone around them. When this takes place and we do find ourselves wrong and outside of His will, His Spirit draws us back to him to deal with everything in truth and continue to follow Him. We learn from every single one o0f these exs[periances and He builds us up for His purpose in these ways so we might glorify Him. Holla-boo-ya!!!:cool::p

So while I would never ever ever say we didn't have choice, everything would be pointless if this was the case, it still amazes me beyond fear, awe, wonder, reverence how He is sovereign and works within our choices and wills to bring about His kingdom for His glory!!!!

So I hope this helps explain the perspective at least I hold, but sometimes a little incite helps us to understand each other better and hopefully show that God can be trusted to guide all His children to truth and even though we made believe the same thing a little differently that we can fully trust God to lead them and us to all truth when we come together,and unite in His name to glorify the KING of everybody!!!:D:p:D(y)(y)(y):love::D
I understand your thoughts but it's just kinda funny this quote here, " So as far as FREE will I do not believe that it's completely free."

Just sounds contradicting lol but hey I could debate theology but that wasn't my purpose in writing the post. My main thoughts was pointing out the logical flaws of a worldview without free will. The thoughts I raised in the original OP was really the questions that I feel a belief in the absence of free will must be justified in order to be logical. And so far the atheist cannot do it without admitting the crazy conclusions in my OP.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
1,878
433
83
39
#9
I understand your thoughts but it's just kinda funny this quote here, " So as far as FREE will I do not believe that it's completely free."

Just sounds contradicting lol but hey I could debate theology but that wasn't my purpose in writing the post. My main thoughts was pointing out the logical flaws of a worldview without free will. The thoughts I raised in the original OP was really the questions that I feel a belief in the absence of free will must be justified in order to be logical. And so far the atheist cannot do it without admitting the crazy conclusions in my OP.
How can you have "FREE" will when we are slaves to one master or the other? How is that not completely contradicting? We have a will, but it's not free it's bound to our Nature be it sin or Spirit. I explained all this in the comment, and see this as a nitpick honestly.\

Show me where God's word tells us we have FREE will, I already showed where it says we are NOT "FREE" at all. We are in fact slaves.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,204
2,933
113
#10
You are simply mixing up several things.
My view: Nobody can obey without God's grace.
Are you aware that it is by God's grace that human beings have (1) free will even after the Fall and (2) human beings have a conscience after the Fall?

Which means that even unsaved individuals can do righteous deeds, because the conscience has the Law embedded within it: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...(Rom 2:14,15)

Calvinists simply ignore this passage, since it refutes their false ideas.
I am on Augustine bandwagon when it comes to that: "Lord command what you will and grant what you command!”
If you are on Augustine's bandwagon, theN be aware that Augustine STRONGLY SUPPORTED the existence of human free will with Scripture. He wrote extensively about this, so I will simply give you the link. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm
Why? Because ORIGINAL SIN. There is a reason no one has ever kept all the commandments of God perfectly, NOR NEVER WILL. Jesus was born of a virgin, WHY? Had he been born like you and me from a regular man's seed, it would be the SAME THING all over again, sin sin and more sin!
The issue is NOT about keeping God's commandment perfectly. The issue is whether those who are unsaved can and do respond to the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists put the cart before the horse, and claim that the unsaved FIRST receive the Holy Spirit, and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE.
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
#11
You are simply mixing up several things.

Are you aware that it is by God's grace that human beings have (1) free will even after the Fall and (2) human beings have a conscience after the Fall?

Which means that even unsaved individuals can do righteous deeds, because the conscience has the Law embedded within it: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...(Rom 2:14,15)

Calvinists simply ignore this passage, since it refutes their false ideas.

If you are on Augustine's bandwagon, theN be aware that Augustine STRONGLY SUPPORTED the existence of human free will with Scripture. He wrote extensively about this, so I will simply give you the link. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

The issue is NOT about keeping God's commandment perfectly. The issue is whether those who are unsaved can and do respond to the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists put the cart before the horse, and claim that the unsaved FIRST receive the Holy Spirit, and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE.
I've read a bunch of Augustine. He does believe in free will, but like Luther and the reformers did not think it was a LIBERTARIAN free will.
Rather, our choices are not coerced and we freely choose to sin. Just like alligators choose to eat gazelle!

I love you too much to debate with you bro!
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
924
439
63
#12
As I understand Calvinism, the teaching pertains to Predestination. Which is Biblical for any construct of denomination. Whereas there is a verse besides those that refer to God's predetermining all things that informs what appears to me at least to vacate the notion of what we call free will. Whereas free choice would in that passage appear to be in our control and yet the verse appears to stipulate even that is God's doing.
The Book of Proverbs chapter 16 and verse 9 A man’s heart deviseth his way;But Jehovah directeth his steps.
The entire chapter helps to put that into context I think.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#13
How can you have "FREE" will when we are slaves to one master or the other? How is that not completely contradicting? We have a will, but it's not free it's bound to our Nature be it sin or Spirit. I explained all this in the comment, and see this as a nitpick honestly.\

Show me where God's word tells us we have FREE will, I already showed where it says we are NOT "FREE" at all. We are in fact slaves.
In your first post you said quote," A very well thought out comment, and I really agree with you on everything you said, only I see it a little bit different."

My post was to explain how libertarian free will best fits reality. You said you agreed with everything I said but your view was a little different.

Then in your above reply you said quote, " ....we are NOT "FREE" at all. We are in fact slaves."

So you can see why it seems contradicting in your statements. I am honestly trying to understand your belief so I dont try to assume your beliefs.

You can quote scripture, I can quote scripture, you can tell me my interpretation is wrong, and I can tell you yours is wrong. And then what progress would we make. I'm just looking at which one best fits reality because God is the author of reality.

I want to know so in your belief we are completely without free will or not just to clarify my confusion in your statements.

And does that mean everyone is predetermined to act as they do?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#14
I've read a bunch of Augustine. He does believe in free will, but like Luther and the reformers did not think it was a LIBERTARIAN free will.
Rather, our choices are not coerced and we freely choose to sin. Just like alligators choose to eat gazelle!

I love you too much to debate with you bro!
Debate is healthy if done in love.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#15
God gave man the freedom as to how he wants to live his life here on earth. There are many scriptures where God asks man to choose certain things. That's why the world is in such a mess, due to the bad choices man has made by his own intelligence without seeking the counsel of God. Jesus said, "I thank you Lord, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of Jesus's doctrine) from the wise and prudent and have revealed them unto babes". God did not give man the ability to choose his eternal destiny, because by his foreknowledge he knew that no one would seek him, Psalms 53:2.
Instead God seeks us. Our only option is to respond in faith or continue to rebel.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,634
296
83
#16
You are simply mixing up several things.

Are you aware that it is by God's grace that human beings have (1) free will even after the Fall and (2) human beings have a conscience after the Fall?

Which means that even unsaved individuals can do righteous deeds, because the conscience has the Law embedded within it: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...(Rom 2:14,15)

Calvinists simply ignore this passage, since it refutes their false ideas.

If you are on Augustine's bandwagon, theN be aware that Augustine STRONGLY SUPPORTED the existence of human free will with Scripture. He wrote extensively about this, so I will simply give you the link. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

The issue is NOT about keeping God's commandment perfectly. The issue is whether those who are unsaved can and do respond to the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists put the cart before the horse, and claim that the unsaved FIRST receive the Holy Spirit, and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Only born again people have the spiritual law written in their hearts. Gentiles as well. It would be interesting to see how you would interpret 1 Cor 2:14. Can you humor me and tell me your interpretation?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,634
296
83
#17
Instead God seeks us. Our only option is to respond in faith or continue to rebel.
Eph 2:1-4 tells us how we are born again and man has no response. He was born again, while yet DEAD in sins. When you are dead spiritually you cannot respond to spiritual things. 1 Cor 2:14 makes this clear.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,634
296
83
#18
How can you have "FREE" will when we are slaves to one master or the other? How is that not completely contradicting? We have a will, but it's not free it's bound to our Nature be it sin or Spirit. I explained all this in the comment, and see this as a nitpick honestly.\

Show me where God's word tells us we have FREE will, I already showed where it says we are NOT "FREE" at all. We are in fact slaves.
God written words are not written to people that are not his children already. It is written to his children instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth. God has given man a free will to choose good or bad. You are right that our choices, if we are born again. are influenced either by our spiritual nature or our fleshly nature. Many times we choose our fleshly nature which requires repentance in order to regain our fellowship back with God. By choosing bad does not cause us to lose our eternal destination because that was secured on the cross. When we choose bad, we are just disobedient children, and God chastens us to bring us to repentance. God does not chasten those that are not his children, Psalms 73.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,713
385
83
#19
Eph 2:1-4 tells us how we are born again and man has no response. He was born again, while yet DEAD in sins. When you are dead spiritually you cannot respond to spiritual things. 1 Cor 2:14 makes this clear.
So you believe in the absence of free will correct?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,634
296
83
#20
John 7: 17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Joshua 24:15-16, " 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods,

Proverbs 3:5-7, " 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. 7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.

Free will is reaal and every living being has it.
Everything you have quoted and said is true, however. God did give man a free choice in determining his eternal destination, that is by God's grace, without the help of man.