The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[TheDivineWatermark]

I do believe the two witnesses are literal people. I lean toward the two witnesses as being the Old Testament saints. I can't explain it and I don't know that it's true for sure.

Okay, so can you see that Rev11:11-12 uses the word "ASCENDED" with regard to what they do, at that point?

This was my answer to your Q re: "ascending" meaning a particular thing, that you had suggested.

 

[John146]

Hi John!

My problem with Moses being one of the witnesses is that, Moses died. If someone wants to claim that he was resurrected, it would mean that Moses would have died resurrected, died again and resurrected again. My choice would be Enoch and Elijah, bot of whom never died a physical death.

I'm ok with Moses dying and coming back. That doesn't contradict Scripture. A war is waged over his body. Plus, no one knows where he was buried. Did Lazarus die twice? Was Lazarus resurrected twice?

Is not Enoch a type of saint caught up without facing death?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus took David's throne 2000 years ago.

The text does not say that, nor suggest it

 

[John146]

Jesus took David's throne 2000 years ago.

Where's that at? Jesus sits at the right hand of God as Prince and Savior. He is the King in waiting.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[KJV1611]

Okay, so can you see that Rev11:11-12 uses the word "ASCENDED" with regard to what they do, at that point?

This was my answer to your Q re: "ascending" meaning a particular thing, that you had suggested.

Most words have multiple meanings.

 

[Truth7t7]

Elijah dies in the tribulation. Hebrews 9:27 is a general statement about man. There are exceptions, Enoch being one. Also, those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will not die, but be caught up to be with the Lord.

"All" men will die a physical death.

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, the Lords fire will burn every human body upon this earth, no human gets out alive.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[KJV1611]

I’ve got to go do some work I’ll be back later.

 

[John146]

Where's that at? Jesus sits at the right hand of God as Prince and Savior. He is the King in waiting.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Which is a picture of the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God together.

Prince = kingdom of heaven
Saviour = kingdom of God

 

[John146]

"All" men will die a physical death.

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, the Lords fire will burn every human body upon this earth.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

No death, caught up...

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[cv5]

Sealed Christians!

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sealed Christians!

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Sealed Christians!

Revelation 7:2-4KJV
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I'm going to have to call that an unintelligible incoherent word salad. None of that makes any sense whatsoever, nor does it identify the hundred and 144,000 in any way.

The Bible describes the 144,000 completely and in terms that are unequivocal.
Yes the heretics claim that these individuals are anything under the sun BUT Israelites. Should you care to ensnare yourself in their folly, be my guest.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7:1-17&version=ESV

 

[cv5]

I would think, going by the language, that David's body has not been resurrected yet. The Lord may be waiting to resurrect David during the Millennial as Jesus takes David's throne. I'm not really sure.

You would be correct about that. Scripture supports that claim.

 

[cv5]

I'm ok with Moses dying and coming back. That doesn't contradict Scripture. A war is waged over his body. Plus, no one knows where he was buried. Did Lazarus die twice? Was Lazarus resurrected twice?

Is not Enoch a type of saint caught up without facing death?

My vote is for Elijah and Moses. The great tribulation plagues are similar to what they did while on earth. Furthermore it is these two who were seen at the transfiguration, and the conjecture is that this was a staff meeting speaking about the Second Coming!

 

[Truth7t7]

No death, caught up...

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The human body is left behind, exchanged for the eternal glorified body.

 

[John146]

The human body is left behind, exchanged for the eternal glorified body.

That's not what Scripture says, however. The body will be changed, not left behind. 1 Corinthians 15

 

[John146]

The human body is left behind, exchanged for the eternal glorified body.

Another reason I believe this is a general statement with exceptions...did all men die once? Hasn't there been those who have died twice? Did Lazarus die once or twice? Appointed doesn't mean fixed. It's a general statement about man.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[cv5]

You post Revelation 20:1-6 as if you have reassurance of your Millennial Kingdom on this earth?

Where are Mortal Humans Present In Your Presented Verses?

There Ain't A One!

How can you use these verses to claim a mortal kingdomo on this earth, humans, Jesus On A Throne, Jews Running A Priesthood Animal Sacrifice?

Like I Said, A Big Pinocchio Fairy Tale!

Oooohhh really? Evidently in your arrogance you will fail to take into account Revelation chapters 6 through 18 because they don't suit your false doctrine either.

So have fun living in your fairytale world buddy.

And as this far as the Temple and sacrifices are concerned, any number knowledgeable commentators on this thread could back op the truck and dump an absolute truckload load of Scriptures on you to debunk your false doctrine.

I'm not gonna waste my time doing it.

 

[cv5]

Another reason I believe this is a general statement with exceptions...did all men die once? Hasn't there been those who have died twice? Did Lazarus die once or twice? Appointed doesn't mean fixed. It's a general statement about man.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Commentators believe that peculiar statement is talking about spiritual death.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My vote is for Elijah and Moses.

This is correct from all indications in Scripture. These two men are called "prophets", and their miracles correspond to those already recorded. Elijah shut the heavens for 3 1/2 years, and their ministry is also for 3 1/2 years, which also corresponds exactly to the reign of the Antichrist (42 months).

Elias [Elijah] was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. (James 5:17)

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth... These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Rev 11:3,6)

Elijah also brought fire down from heaven through his prayers: And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. (Rev 11:5) [Note: this is not about a fire-breathing man but a man who prays for fire to descend from Heaven]

 

[Dan_473]

The calling of God is conditional for individuals same as He has promised that salvation will be received by some out of every language and people group but each must still fulfills the conditions. So clearly not all Jews are or will be saved. Some are already lost forever. So “all
Israel” cannot mean every Jew.

So as Israel is described as the believers including Gentiles, one can consider all believers everywhere spiritual Israel and so all believers will be saved. They are offered godliness.

I can understand the idea of the calling and election of God being conditional.

Romans 11:28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake.

would spiritual Israel be enemies concerning the good news?
who is the "your" that Paul is talking about there, in your view?

 

[cv5]

This is correct from all indications in Scripture. These two men are called "prophets", and their miracles correspond to those already recorded. Elijah shut the heavens for 3 1/2 years, and their ministry is also for 3 1/2 years, which also corresponds exactly to the reign of the Antichrist (42 months).

Elias [Elijah] was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. (James 5:17)

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth... These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Rev 11:3,6)

Elijah also brought fire down from heaven through his prayers: And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. (Rev 11:5) [Note: this is not about a fire-breathing man but a man who prays for fire to descend from Heaven]

Yes. Totally agree. I was thinking of those exact Scriptures when the question arose.
Enoch is a type of the rapture, furthermore he was before Abraham so he is definitely not Jewish, so he really does not fit, seeing that the time of Jacob's trouble and Israel is the emphasis and major theme of the GT.