Nope, the sacrificial system forgave sins. Period. When I sin today, it is washed away by the shed blood of Christ. I have the hope of being present with the Lord upon death because of His righteousness, not my own. Those OT saints did not have this. The best they could do is end up in Abraham's bosom. Btw, David had sure mercies because of the promised seed would come through him.
The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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146 you make me want to bang my head against a wall lol. They were searching for WHAT KIND of suffering and WHEN WILL (what manner of time) the sufferings of Christ take place.
They didn't EXACTLY HOW nor WHEN Christ would suffer but they knew it was coming sometime in the future. The way he would suffer and when he would suffer was revealed to those alive WHEN IT HAPPENED.
(1Pe 1:10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(1Pe 1:11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(1Pe 1:12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
They didn't EXACTLY HOW nor WHEN Christ would suffer but they knew it was coming sometime in the future. The way he would suffer and when he would suffer was revealed to those alive WHEN IT HAPPENED.
(1Pe 1:10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(1Pe 1:11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(1Pe 1:12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
You know I debate scripture here for two reasons and they aren't in any particular order. But I do it to try to help other people see what God has show me. And if people reject what I'm offering, I'm fine with that and I will continue to discuss things with them in hopes that I may learn something from the debate. But when people reject what I'm saying and they are so for out in left field that I'm not going to learn anything from it, that's when I stop. At that point it's pointless to continue.
The Church could not come into existence until the promised Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost.
The New Birth was a necessity to enter into the Church, and it is only after the gift of the Holy Spirit was given that sinners were regenerated (Acts 2:38;Titus 3:4-7).
The word that was translated as "church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38) would have been more accurately stated as the "assembly" or "congregation" in the wilderness. And that is how it has been translated in the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASV, CSB, HCSB, etc.
Christ was present with the Israelites in the wilderness, but Acts 7:38 speaks about Mt Sinai, and as you know the Israelites danced around the golden calf at that time. They were not within the Church by any means. Indeed, there would have been less than half a dozen who were justified saints at that time. Aaron was spared, but he was the one who made the golden calf. Miriam was later punished with leprosy. Moses, Joshua, and Caleb, and perhaps a few others were deemed to be righteous.
The New Birth was a necessity to enter into the Church, and it is only after the gift of the Holy Spirit was given that sinners were regenerated (Acts 2:38;Titus 3:4-7).
The word that was translated as "church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38) would have been more accurately stated as the "assembly" or "congregation" in the wilderness. And that is how it has been translated in the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASV, CSB, HCSB, etc.
Christ was present with the Israelites in the wilderness, but Acts 7:38 speaks about Mt Sinai, and as you know the Israelites danced around the golden calf at that time. They were not within the Church by any means. Indeed, there would have been less than half a dozen who were justified saints at that time. Aaron was spared, but he was the one who made the golden calf. Miriam was later punished with leprosy. Moses, Joshua, and Caleb, and perhaps a few others were deemed to be righteous.
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Jesus is gonna dissolve this earth by his fire in Judgement, this takes place at his return
2 Peter 3:10-12KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Peter 3:10-12KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
First of all, what you stated above contradicts itself. If Christ reigns over his one and only kingdom on this earth, how then can it not be of this world. By saying "without observance" you are ignoring the plain meaning of scripture by misapplying it.
Scripture supports that the thousand year reign of Christ is going to be here on this physical earth.
* The Lord touches down on the mount of Olives which will be split in two
* The nations will beat their weapons of war into plowshares and pruninghooks
* Jesus will sit on the throne of His earthly ancestor king David, ruling from literal Israel
* The church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints will rule with Christ during that literal thousand year period
* Those whom Satan deceives after the thousand years will march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of God's people the city that He loves, which is referring to the physical city of Jerusalem.
I could go on an on demonstrating the Lord's literal rule on this earth. The millennial kingdom will be a literal thousand year reign on this present earth which will begin after the tribulation period. By the way, the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath, will be "WITH OBSERVANCE."
(Psa 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
The thousand years are DAYS that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The number of days of this kingdom IS NOT 1000 years. 1000 years denotes that these are 24 hour DAYS that fall within the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.[/quote]
You guys are so predictable! I've already mentioned Psalm 50:10 in a recent post because I knew that you guys would bring it up. So basically what you've done is just go out an grab some other scripture that uses the word 'thousand' and apply the same meaning to the usage in Revelation, while ignoring the context of Revelation. One size fits all, so to speak.[/quote]
The thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7 will take place as a literal thousand years on this earth, with observance. You seem to be stuck on that word. And it seems to be the base of how you interpret everything. By do so, you ignore the plain literal meaning of scripture.
I assure you that, when Jesus appears in the air to gather His church, it will be "with observance." For the dead will rise first and then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up and removed from this physical earth with observance. And that because their physical bodily removal will be noticeable by the entire world.
In all scripture, it is the immediate context which should be considered first. Regarding the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20, there is no reason to apply the meaning of a thousand years from any other scripture, Revelation is quite clear in its meaning of a liter thousand years.
My advice to you, would be to drop the "without observance" thing and start reading scripture while discerning what is literal and what is symbolic. Because from what you have written, you have no understanding between the two. Stop inserting "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" into every scripture.
Regarding your claim of "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" you have scripture stating the following regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age:
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The fact that the scripture states that "every eye will see Him" would demonstrate that the Lord's return will be "WITH OBSERVANCE."
In conclusion, you are very screwed up in regards to your understanding of the word of God.
Scripture supports that the thousand year reign of Christ is going to be here on this physical earth.
* The Lord touches down on the mount of Olives which will be split in two
* The nations will beat their weapons of war into plowshares and pruninghooks
* Jesus will sit on the throne of His earthly ancestor king David, ruling from literal Israel
* The church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints will rule with Christ during that literal thousand year period
* Those whom Satan deceives after the thousand years will march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of God's people the city that He loves, which is referring to the physical city of Jerusalem.
I could go on an on demonstrating the Lord's literal rule on this earth. The millennial kingdom will be a literal thousand year reign on this present earth which will begin after the tribulation period. By the way, the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath, will be "WITH OBSERVANCE."
(Psa 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
The thousand years are DAYS that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The number of days of this kingdom IS NOT 1000 years. 1000 years denotes that these are 24 hour DAYS that fall within the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.[/quote]
You guys are so predictable! I've already mentioned Psalm 50:10 in a recent post because I knew that you guys would bring it up. So basically what you've done is just go out an grab some other scripture that uses the word 'thousand' and apply the same meaning to the usage in Revelation, while ignoring the context of Revelation. One size fits all, so to speak.[/quote]
The thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7 will take place as a literal thousand years on this earth, with observance. You seem to be stuck on that word. And it seems to be the base of how you interpret everything. By do so, you ignore the plain literal meaning of scripture.
I assure you that, when Jesus appears in the air to gather His church, it will be "with observance." For the dead will rise first and then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up and removed from this physical earth with observance. And that because their physical bodily removal will be noticeable by the entire world.
In all scripture, it is the immediate context which should be considered first. Regarding the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20, there is no reason to apply the meaning of a thousand years from any other scripture, Revelation is quite clear in its meaning of a liter thousand years.
My advice to you, would be to drop the "without observance" thing and start reading scripture while discerning what is literal and what is symbolic. Because from what you have written, you have no understanding between the two. Stop inserting "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" into every scripture.
Regarding your claim of "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" you have scripture stating the following regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age:
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The fact that the scripture states that "every eye will see Him" would demonstrate that the Lord's return will be "WITH OBSERVANCE."
In conclusion, you are very screwed up in regards to your understanding of the word of God.
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You guys are so predictable! I've already mentioned Psalm 50:10 in a recent post because I knew that you guys would bring it up. So basically what you've done is just go out an grab some other scripture that uses the word 'thousand' and apply the same meaning to the usage in Revelation, while ignoring the context of Revelation. One size fits all, so to speak.[/quote]
The thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7 will take place as a literal thousand years on this earth, with observance. You seem to be stuck on that word. And it seems to be the base of how you interpret everything. By do so, you ignore the plain literal meaning of scripture.
I assure you that, when Jesus appears in the air to gather His church, it will be "with observance." For the dead will rise first and then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up and removed from this physical earth with observance. And that because their physical bodily removal will be noticeable by the entire world.
In all scripture, it is the immediate context which should be considered first. Regarding the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20, there is no reason to apply the meaning of a thousand years from any other scripture, Revelation is quite clear in its meaning of a liter thousand years.
My advice to you, would be to drop the "without observance" thing and start reading scripture while discerning what is literal and what is symbolic. Because from what you have written, you have no understanding between the two. Stop inserting "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" into every scripture.
Regarding your claim of "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" you have scripture stating the following regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age:
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The fact that the scripture states that "every eye will see Him" would demonstrate that the Lord's return will be "WITH OBSERVANCE."
In conclusion, you are very screwed up in regards to your understanding of the word of God.[/QUOTE]
Not one single word you have posted shows a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, not one.
Order Of Events
Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement "immediately after the tribulation", dissolving this earth by his "Fire"
2 Thess 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10
There wont be a physical earth to have a fairy tale 1,000 year kingdom on, after the return of Jesus Christ.
Sorry to ruin your Millennial Kingdom party, its gonna be the "Eternal Kingdom", New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, at the return of Jesus Christ "Immediately After The Tribulation" Matthew 24:29-21
The thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7 will take place as a literal thousand years on this earth, with observance. You seem to be stuck on that word. And it seems to be the base of how you interpret everything. By do so, you ignore the plain literal meaning of scripture.
I assure you that, when Jesus appears in the air to gather His church, it will be "with observance." For the dead will rise first and then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up and removed from this physical earth with observance. And that because their physical bodily removal will be noticeable by the entire world.
In all scripture, it is the immediate context which should be considered first. Regarding the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20, there is no reason to apply the meaning of a thousand years from any other scripture, Revelation is quite clear in its meaning of a liter thousand years.
My advice to you, would be to drop the "without observance" thing and start reading scripture while discerning what is literal and what is symbolic. Because from what you have written, you have no understanding between the two. Stop inserting "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" into every scripture.
Regarding your claim of "WITHOUT OBSERVANCE" you have scripture stating the following regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age:
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The fact that the scripture states that "every eye will see Him" would demonstrate that the Lord's return will be "WITH OBSERVANCE."
In conclusion, you are very screwed up in regards to your understanding of the word of God.[/QUOTE]
Not one single word you have posted shows a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, not one.
Order Of Events
Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement "immediately after the tribulation", dissolving this earth by his "Fire"
2 Thess 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10
There wont be a physical earth to have a fairy tale 1,000 year kingdom on, after the return of Jesus Christ.
Sorry to ruin your Millennial Kingdom party, its gonna be the "Eternal Kingdom", New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, at the return of Jesus Christ "Immediately After The Tribulation" Matthew 24:29-21
"The Eternal Kingdom"!
Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.
(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below
(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.
(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.
(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.
(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13
Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.
(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below
(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.
(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.
(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.
(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13
Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
What Jesus was actually saying was that Abraham saw the lamb that was trapped in the mountain, and he took it and sacrifice it instead of Issac, so in that sense, he was glad.
People interpret that to say what they want it to say, that Abraham saw the cross where the Son of God would die for everyone's sins.
People interpret that to say what they want it to say, that Abraham saw the cross where the Son of God would die for everyone's sins.
Your 100% incorrect, the fire is at the appearance, return of Jesus Christ, this takes place immediately after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-30
You arent going to change the truth of scripture
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
2 Thess 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
You arent going to change the truth of scripture
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
2 Thess 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
I would like to discuss this further if your willing to. There are some really whacked out ideas about this verse so I don't know where you stand on this but do you believe that Jesus reigns over the kingdom of God mentioned below?
Mat_21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat_21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
I have no intention of changing the truth of Scripture. But when a person cannot interpret Scripture properly -- for example you -- then they make a mishmash of Scripture.
The "flaming fire" which Christ brings with Him to the battle of Armageddon at His Second Coming is NOT the supernatural fire which burns up the earth and its atmosphere later on. The first is meant to destroy all the enemies of Christ and Israel.
If Christ were to dissolve the earth at His Second Coming, none of the events between Revelation 19 and the end of Revelation 20 would happen. And that my friend is PATENTLY ABSURD.
The "flaming fire" which Christ brings with Him to the battle of Armageddon at His Second Coming is NOT the supernatural fire which burns up the earth and its atmosphere later on. The first is meant to destroy all the enemies of Christ and Israel.
If Christ were to dissolve the earth at His Second Coming, none of the events between Revelation 19 and the end of Revelation 20 would happen. And that my friend is PATENTLY ABSURD.
I don’t know who teaches it probably no group, I got it from the Bible.
The truth is not well received in “Christian” churches, any group that would teach this would be ran out of their church for even bringing it up.
It’s sort of like any democrat who doesn’t want to disband the police will be excommunicated.
The truth is not well received in “Christian” churches, any group that would teach this would be ran out of their church for even bringing it up.
It’s sort of like any democrat who doesn’t want to disband the police will be excommunicated.