"The Anatomy...

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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#101
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#101
Jocund said:
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Rom 9:6-8 KJV

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [...] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:16&29 KJV

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." - Rom 11:7 KJV

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." - Rom 11:23 KJV

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:" - Rom 9:27 KJV


Nowhere in scripture does it say that all people of Israel would be saved. Scripture states that very few of Israel will be saved. And still, nowhere in this does scripture say that the "nation of Israel" is chosen.
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All of those that are a part of Israel/Jacob are eternally saved (delivered). The nation of Israel is not the same as Israel/Jacob. Israel/Jacob are made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rev 5:9).

The house of Israel/Jacob turned away from God, but God left in the midst of them a poor and afflicted people, which was a remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob.

Zeph 3:11-13 - In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou (the house of Israel/Jacob) has transgressed against me, for then I will take away out of the midst of the them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be hauty because of my holy mountain. I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and ;poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel/Jacob shall not do inqity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth; for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#102
Mar 17, 2022
2,917
852
113
#102
VARob said:
My post is correct.


God's grace is not a force that causes people to believe.

It is by God's grace that He made salvation available through faith. ANYONE can choose to have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Here is what you said,
The gift of God is salvation by faith, not the faith to believe.
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I said, salvation is by grace through faith.

The grace of God always precedes faith. Faith is the instrument but God's grace is the first cause.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#103
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#103
VARob said:
I think I know where you're going, FGC... You're going to quote 1 Cor 3:14, and say that a "natural" person (implying a person without the spirit) cannot understand spiritual things, therefore they must have the Spirit before they can hear and believe spiritual things. In 2 Cor 3:14, the word for "natural" is psuchikos, and it means "soulish." A soulish man can choose change his focus and decide to seek God.
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It amazes me, just how far people go, to give credit to the unregenerate person to understanding spiritual things.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#105
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#105
ForestGreenCook said:
It amazes me, just how far people go, to give credit to the unregenerate person to understanding spiritual things.
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God's grace is amazing indeed. The call goes out to all. All means all. Christ died for those unregenerate sinners, of which I was one. Come as you are. The choice comes before the "regeneration".
 
V

VARob

Banned
#107
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
#107
ForestGreenCook said:
It amazes me, just how far people go, to give credit to the unregenerate person to understanding spiritual things.
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People have to understand some things about God and Jesus Christ before they are regenerated (born again).

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#108
Jul 3, 2015
59,984
29,350
113
#108
ForestGreenCook said:
Not even one time does the KJV have a scripture with the word "plan" in it.
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That means you cannot give any verses saying God does not plan things. But you are wrong :rolleyes:

100 Bible results for “plan” from King James Version. Results 1-100 (<= link :))

ForestGreenCook said:
There are 36 scriptures that have the word "purpose" in them.
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56 Bible results for “purpose” from King James Version. Results 1-56 (<= link :))

ForestGreenCook said:
Plans have the ability to fail, but God's purposes do not fail.
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Does that mean you think God's plans would fail??? Weird.

Ron 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them that are the called, according to his purpose.
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According to you, that was not His plan, for all things to work together for good :oops:
 
V

VARob

Banned
#109
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
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#109
ForestGreenCook said:
Plans have the ability to fail, but God's purposes do not fail.
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Gen 6:
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God was sorry that He had made man, and was about to destroy everything.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Thanks God!
 
Jocund

Jocund

Banned
#110
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
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#110
Inquisitor said:
The text states that the children of Jacob are the chosen one's. Which is identical to saying. The text states that the children of ISRAEL are the chosen one's.
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The text is addressed to those that happen to be descendants of Israel, but this does not mean that all descendants of Israel are chosen ones. Look at the phrasing. The text does not state that all descendants of Israel would be chosen ones.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#112
Mar 17, 2022
2,917
852
113
#112
Jocund said:
The text is addressed to those that happen to be descendants of Israel, but this does not mean that all descendants of Israel are chosen ones. Look at the phrasing. The text does not state that all descendants of Israel would be chosen ones.
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Romans 11:28-32
In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

So what do you think Paul is talking about here?
 
Jocund

Jocund

Banned
#113
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#113
Inquisitor said:
Romans 11:28-32
In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

So what do you think Paul is talking about here?
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Look at Rom 11:26, he's talking about "all Israel", not "all of Israel".

Look at Rom 9:6, "All Israel =/= all of Israel".

Rom 11:28-32 is only talking about Israel the spiritual body (that has or will turn to Christ) and not about all of the genetic progeny.

Keep Romans in mind and now look back at 1 Chron 16:13. That passage is clearly not stating that all children of Israel are chosen. That passage is addressing chosen ones that happen to be children of Israel.

There are Israelites that are chosen (but not all Israelites). I've seen zero scriptural evidence for the concept that the "nation of Israel" was ever chosen. The only chosen nation referenced in scripture very strongly seems to be the nation in Christ.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#114
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#114
ForestGreenCook said:
Plans have the ability to fail, but God's purposes do not fail.

VARob said:
Gen 6:
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God was sorry that He had made man, and was about to destroy everything.
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This is an example of man's failure, not God's.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#116
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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#116
VARob said:
The point is that God was sorry that He had made man. It was not God's purpose or plan to be sorry that He had created man.
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God has (and always has had) complete foreknowledge of all things. That is why we have prophecies - particularly prophecies about a Saviour and salvation in the Old Testament. God dwells outside of time. Just because He can be sad does not mean He can be surprised.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#117
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#117
oyster67 said:
God's grace is amazing indeed. The call goes out to all. All means all. Christ died for those unregenerate sinners, of which I was one. Come as you are. The choice comes before the "regeneration".
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We are all born into this world by natural birth as unregenerate sinners, and were by nature, the children of wrath, even as others, But God, which is rich in mercy, for his great love, wherewith he loved us, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ.(Eph 2)

Eph 2:8-9 - For we are saved by (God's sovereign) grace, through Christ's faithfulness in going to the cross (Gal 2:16), and that NOT OF OURSELVES, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. Spiritually dead people (unregenerate) cannot accept a spiritual gift, from a spiritual God, that they think is foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). and will not come just as they are.

The quickening of God (being born again) comes as a gentle breeze, you do not realize where it came from, nor where it goes. As for myself, I do not know when I was born again, but I have the assurance that I was. A lot of God's children think that their conversion was their new birth, which may be your case.

Christ died for those that come to Jesus, and they are those that his Father gave to him (John 6:37-40). and Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day.

God's sheep are his elect. John 10:26-29 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my Father's hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#118
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#118
VARob said:
The point is that God was sorry that He had made man. It was not God's purpose or plan to be sorry that He had created man.
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God knows all things. He knows how many hairs is in your head, at any given time. Do you really think that God did not know what man would do? If the scriptures do not harmonize in a person's mind, then he does not understand the truths of Jesus doctrine.
 
V

VARob

Banned
#119
Dec 21, 2020
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#119
oyster67 said:
God has (and always has had) complete foreknowledge of all things.
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Jer 32:35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

Gen 2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Gen 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

In Genesis 6, God said He was sorry He had made man, and was going to destroy them.

That is why we have prophecies - particularly prophecies about a Saviour and salvation in the Old Testament.
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Prophecies come to pass because God works to bring them to pass.

God dwells outside of time.
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Scripture?

Just because He can be sad does not mean He can be surprised.
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The Bible does not say He was sad, it says He was sorry.
 
V

VARob

Banned
#120
Dec 21, 2020
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#120
ForestGreenCook said:
God knows all things. He knows how many hairs is in your head, at any given time. Do you really think that God did not know what man would do? If the scriptures do not harmonize in a person's mind, then he does not understand the truths of Jesus doctrine.
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God knows everything that is available to know. It's not possible to know every decision that free will beings will make before those decisions are made.
 
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