The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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brightfame52

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More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

Justification unto or into life by the Spirit. This must be because the old life has been crucified with the Lord Jesus Christ, all of its sins , past, present and future have been blotted out once and for all, so now we must be born again to serve in the Newness of Life, Gods Justice demands it for Christ sake.

So Legal Justification by the blood of Christ, and forgiveness of all sins because of the blood of Christ, this demands that all Christ died for be made New Creatures. This is so because the end or purpose of being redeemed was for:

1. To redeem us [All Christ died for, His Church] from all lawlessness or iniquity Titus 2:14

2a. To Purify to Himself a particular People as His very unique possession [ This speaks to the Truth of particular redemption] Titus 2:1447

2b. To create a people zealous of good works which He had been before ordained see Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And these specific purposes and ends for redemption is effected by our regeneration, being born of the Spirit into His Kingdom. So redemption secures for us a New Creation, in order to live in the newness of Life and to perform the God ordained Spiritual Works He has prepared for us to walk in them.
 

brightfame52

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You have a problem with the fact that God chose to use the word lambánō in Rom 5:11?

Your problem is with God ... it's His Word and He chose to state in Romans 5:11:

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.


HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.


In Post #164 you provided information regarding the Greek word katallagē (translated "atonement" in Rom 5:11).

Look up the word lambánō (translated "received" in Rom 5:11).
You still disregard that the reconciliation is accomplished Rom 5:10 by Christs death, its not offered.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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You still disregard that the reconciliation is accomplished Rom 5:10 by Christs death, its not offered.
Nope. I do not disregard what is written in God's Word.


You, however, disregard what is written in Romans 5:11:

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.

HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
 

brightfame52

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Nope. I do not disregard what is written in God's Word.

You, however, disregard what is written in Romans 5:11:

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.

HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
Yes you do. They who Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death. It's not a offer nor anything to do with their volition Rom 5:10.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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That I read what is written in Romans 5:11 and accept it as written does not equal me disregarding what is written in Romans 5:10.

You are projecting onto me your disregard of Romans 5:11.




brightfame52 said:
They who Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death. It's not a offer nor anything to do with their volition Rom 5:10.
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.


You don't like that God uses the word lambánō (meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive")? Talk to Him about it. Ask Him to explain it to you so you understand. Quit rejecting God's Word ... receive what God tells you to receive.







 

brightfame52

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That I read what is written in Romans 5:11 and accept it as written does not equal me disregarding what is written in Romans 5:10.

You are projecting onto me your disregard of Romans 5:11.





Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.


You don't like that God uses the word lambánō (meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive")? Talk to Him about it. Ask Him to explain it to you so you understand. Quit rejecting God's Word ... receive what God tells you to receive.
I know what Rom 5:11 says, I mentioned it first remember ? It cant be understood apart from Rom 5:10. Reconciliation is an accomplished fact, not an offer to be received or not received !
 

YankeeGalDownUnder1964

Yankee Gal Down Under
Jun 26, 2021
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If, as you claim, "the elect" were reconciled to God before they are born, they have no need of reconciliation.

You continue to peddle a false dogma which does not bring the sinner to the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom the sinner is reconciled to God.

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam were "enemies" in need of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

All descendants of Adam have sinned and come short of the glory of God (vs 23).

However, in vs 22 we read that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ...

And in vs 25 we read that it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Again, descendants of Adam who believe ...

Under your scenario, "the elect" do not have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because "[e]ven before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already ... been reconciled to God" . Quit peddling your false dogma. Read your Bible.




The Parable of the Wedding Feast indicates that those who believe and obey are of the "elect".
"For many are called, but few are chosen (eklektos)." (Matt 22:14)
Sorry your incorrect only those who call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be Saved
only Born again in Jesus By faith through HIS Grace not of Works will any man enter Heaven
Jesus gave you many examples , from the Rich man vrs poor beggar , the prostitute that gave her very valuable oil
and Matthew the tax collector who walked away from his Collecting of Tithes !

This is NOT Dogma this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ
enter the narrow gate ! its is the difficult path
one not of selfism and pride but of Humilty , beating on ones chest " Saying " god forgive me i am a Sinner "
without Repentance YOU will Not enter Heaven

Jesus Loves you , but 3 crosses were there one , denied , one Repented !both were thieves and murderers
and only one went to paradise !

God Bless
 

brightfame52

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Christ death effects subjective reconciliation also !

2 Cor 5:18-21

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In vs 20, Paul is giving [ In Christ stead or behalf] as though Christ was speaking Himself, a imperative or a command, to who , those already reconciled to God objectively vs 18, it is now time for them to be ye reconciled subjectively by the word of reconciliation, which is the Gospel.

You see, The reconciliation in the death of Christ did more than Just give objective standing of favor with God, more than just legal standing of no condemnation, but it also ensured or effects our subjective reconciliation unto God, that is we will be saved experimentally as well.

This blessed Truth is again stated by the Apostle here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Being saved here is what answers to or corresponds with the "be ye reconciled" in vs 20 of 2 Cor 5:20

In the greek,"be ye reconciled" is a aorist passive imperative, so the subjects are being acted upon, they are actually being reconciled by decree of imperative. They are being saved from the power of sin, and being brought to God subjectively 1 Pet 2:25

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned or being converted unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word for returned here is the greek word epistrepho:

to turn to

to the worship of the true God

to cause to return, to bring back

to the love and obedience of God48

to the love for the children

to love wisdom and righteousness

Also peter uses it in the passive voice, they are being acted upon, being caused to return to the Bishop of their souls.

Thats the subjective reconciliation that's effected in the Death of Christ for all He died for..His death actually brings us to God into fellowship with Him.
 

brightfame52

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Christ applies redemption as well !

The Lord Jesus Christ in His Threefold Mediatorial Character as Priest, prophet and King, makes sure that the Salvation He accomplished for all those He died for, is experienced by them, that is, not only was His blood a bare purchase and then He sets back and offers it, but also by Him as King, He applies it to its subjects to give it effect, to bestow its benefits of grace, they being destined to be conformed into His image, which is their total salvation.

For this cause He was invested with all power in both heaven and earth as per Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give[apply] eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The word power in Matt 28:18 and Jn 17:2 is the greek word exousia:49


power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases

a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

Jesus made this point very clear, that He has all Power to His [Disciples] at their commission. This was not just to be saying that He has all power, but in and through their witness of the Truth of His death, He would be applying that which He purchased as Priest [His offering of Himself] by His own blood, their salvation.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I know what Rom 5:11 says, I mentioned it first remember ? It cant be understood apart from Rom 5:10. Reconciliation is an accomplished fact, not an offer to be received or not received !
I do not read Romans 5:11 apart from Romans 5:10.

You are the one who has a problem reading Romans 5:10 in conjunction with what is written in Romans 5:11.

The word lambánō is part of the text.

You have a problem with the word lambánō? Ask God to reveal His Truth to you.

HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.




 
Mar 23, 2016
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@YankeeGalDownUnder1964 wrote:

3 crosses were there one , denied , one Repented !both were thieves and murderers
and only one went to paradise !


reneweddaybyday question:


If the one had not repented, would he still have gone to paradise?

Thanks and God Bless you, too!



 

brightfame52

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renewed

I do not read Romans 5:11 apart from Romans 5:10.
It looks that way to me, since reconciliation there is a finished transaction for the ones Christ died for and not a offer to receive.
 
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reneweddaybyday said:
I do not read Romans 5:11 apart from Romans 5:10.
It looks that way to me,
Because I do not deny the use of the Greek word lambánō (which means "actively lay hold of to take or receive") in Rom 5:11, you insist that I "read Romans 5:11 apart from Romans 5:10"??? ... or that I "disregard" Scripture??? ... yet you're the one who can't accept the use of the Greek word lambánō in Rom 5:11 ... what a farce.
:rolleyes:




brightfame52 said:
since reconciliation there is a finished transaction for the ones Christ died for and not a offer to receive.
Take up the use of the Greek word lambánō with God. It's His Word and He chose to use lambánō in Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.



 

brightfame52

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Christ applies redemption as well cont

In Christ's Threefold Character as Priest, Prophet and King, each plays a role in the salvation of those He died and rose, as their Priest, He offered Himself for them, purchases their liberty, their right to life. Heb 7:27

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Lk 4:18

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Notice, the effect , Jesus said He is to set at liberty those that are bruised, not offer them liberty, not make it possible, but He actually sets them at liberty. Its the same word for send forth

Matt 13:41

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

You see, He is acting as King when He sends forth His Angels, to gather out of His Kingdom !

So He applies as King, His work as Priest, He applies the redemption of His blood that He offered..

He sets or makes them free Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The word make means "to set at liberty" from the dominion of sin ! 50
 

brightfame52

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Because I do not deny the use of the Greek word lambánō (which means "actively lay hold of to take or receive") in Rom 5:11, you insist that I "read Romans 5:11 apart from Romans 5:10"??? ... or that I "disregard" Scripture??? ... yet you're the one who can't accept the use of the Greek word lambánō in Rom 5:11 ... what a farce.:rolleyes:





Take up the use of the Greek word lambánō with God. It's His Word and He chose to use lambánō in Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.
The greek word is no problem, its apparent you dont understand its usage in its various context its found, thats on your lack of study !
 

ForestGreenCook

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You need to take a dose of your own medicine. The term "elect unbeliever" does not appear in Scripture ...

WORD SEARCH: elect unbeliever

There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the KJV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the NLT.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-really-accomplish.199050/page-9#post-4588434


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the NIV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=NIV#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the ESV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=ESV#s=s_primary_0_1


here are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the CSB.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=CSB#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the NET.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=NET#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the RSV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=RSV#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the ASV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=ASV#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the YLT.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=YLT#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the DBY.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=DBY#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the WEB.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=WEB#s=s_primary_0_1


There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the HNV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=HNV#s=s_primary_0_1
God choose his elect before the foundation of the world. The scriptures affirm that all mankind. after Adam were born into this world without the righteousness of God, both the elect and the non-elect. From the elect's natural birth until their spiritual birth, they were unbelieving elect. The only way that you can interpret the scriptures truthfully is to consider all of the scriptures rightly agreeing with each other, with no contradicting.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I do not think so. You made the statement that no one had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit until after Pentecost, and Isaiah 63:11 plainly states that Moses was born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

What you provided is that all of the old testament saints only had the Spirit of God upon them, and not within them. This makes you as disregarding Isaiah 63:11 as being a false statement.

God's Spirit is upon us giving us the direction he wants to guide us in. This applies to the old testament saints as well as the new testament ones. God does not guide any of the non-elect and leaves them to their own destruction by the freedom he gave to all of us to choose how we want to live our lives as we live here on earth.
 

brightfame52

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forestgreenc

From the elect's natural birth until their spiritual birth, they were unbelieving elect.
Exactly, seems like a child should understand that. Just like a Sheep, they're unbelieving Sheep until they believe, in fact, that's why they believe because they were already Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 

brightfame52

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Christ applies redemption as well cont

We have seen that as part of His Threefold Character, that as Priest, He has offered Himself as an offering for sin. Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin[A sin offering] for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now, as Prophet He makes known to those He died for their forgiveness, He publishes it.

One of things He was to do was to give Light to the gentiles. Lk 2:32

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

The word lighten here is the greek word apokalypsis:

a disclosure of truth, instruction

Its a communication of the Knowledge of God to the soul.

The Amplified bible reads :

32 A Light for [a]revelation to the Gentiles [to disclose what was before unknown] and [to bring] praise and honor and glory to Your people Israel.(A)


This was prophesied in the Prophet Isa Isa 42:6

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 49:6

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This applied also to the elect Jews as well, He made known to them, The True God.

Jn 17:1-3

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

As Prophet, He made Known the True God to all whom the Father hath given Him, of both jews and gentiles..

This was a result of His shedding of the blood of the New Covenant , it ensured a proper and Spiritual knowledge of God Heb 8:10-11

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

So As Prophet, He Reveals the True God to those He died for.

This revealing also denotes making Known to them The remission of their sins. Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

The word knowledge here is to make known as in Matt 13:1151

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

As our Prophet, He makes Known unto us our Salvation in the remission of our sins that came through His shed blood Matt 26:28

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.