The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
God's elect were born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 63:11) in just the same way that they are born again at Pentecost and thereafter by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The one who "remembered the days of old" is recalling the time when Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. The one who "remembered the days of old" is asking where is God who did marvelous works.
You believe the believers prior to Day of Pentecost were "born again" in the same manner as believers after Day of Pentecost? Have you ever read Numbers 11? ... and specifically Numbers 11:25?
Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him [Moses], and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Read the whole record ... from vs 1 through vs 30.
You believe we are born again after Pentecost in the same manner as what occurred back then? You are incorrect in your understanding.
The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He had to go away in order for the Comforter to come:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
and in John 14:26 we learn that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
In Acts 1, just before Jesus ascended into heaven, He told His disciples:
Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The giving of the Holy Spirit on Day of Pentecost was the "promise of the Father" spoken of by Jesus.
In Hebrews 11, after reading of many wonderful believers who lived prior to the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are told:
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise
ForestGreenCook ... you've got some studying to do in order to understand what it is to be born again in our day and time.
Yes, and I believe that it is backed up by other scriptures such as Matt 7:13-14.
Ezekiel 1:
15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.
16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
According to vss 20,21, the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels and according to vs 12, whither the spirit was to go, they [the living creatures] went
The wheels are not comprised of people.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
How do those That Christ died for receive the Atonement ?
Rom 5:11
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
The word atonement here is the greek word :
katallagē:
) exchange
a) of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values
2) adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour
a) in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
The word is used here also:
Rom 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So what is Paul saying in the text of Rom 5:11 ?
He is saying that we, all those Christ died for, receive the benefit of the atonement by or through Jesus Christ, that is , He ensures that its benefits are received by those He died for. He ensures that by the Holy Spirit, whom He sends, applies those benefits to those He died for, thats another role of His as Mediator. The Holy Spirit because of Christ reveals to each child of mercy that they had a covenant interest in Christ blood: Jn 16:14-15
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Initially that applied to His disciple's, but it also applies to His Church, His body. And through this effectual application they or we become Justified in our own consciousness by Faith, hence by this we receive the atonement, the comfort of it, and the peace of it.
Rom 5:11
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
The word atonement here is the greek word :
katallagē:
) exchange
a) of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values
2) adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour
a) in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
The word is used here also:
Rom 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So what is Paul saying in the text of Rom 5:11 ?
He is saying that we, all those Christ died for, receive the benefit of the atonement by or through Jesus Christ, that is , He ensures that its benefits are received by those He died for. He ensures that by the Holy Spirit, whom He sends, applies those benefits to those He died for, thats another role of His as Mediator. The Holy Spirit because of Christ reveals to each child of mercy that they had a covenant interest in Christ blood: Jn 16:14-15
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Initially that applied to His disciple's, but it also applies to His Church, His body. And through this effectual application they or we become Justified in our own consciousness by Faith, hence by this we receive the atonement, the comfort of it, and the peace of it.
How do those That Christ died for receive the Atonement ?
...
The word atonement here is the greek word :
katallagē
...
The word atonement here is the greek word :
katallagē
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
The words "we have now received" are translated from the Greek word lambanó, which means:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
HELPS Word-studies
According to Romans 5:11, the receiver of the reconciliation is to "actively lay hold of to take or receive" ... the receiver of the reconciliation is to "lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered)".
In answer to your question as to how the atonement is received ...
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
The words "we have now received" are translated from the Greek word lambanó, which means:
According to Romans 5:11, the receiver of the reconciliation is to "actively lay hold of to take or receive" ... the receiver of the reconciliation is to "lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered)".
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
The words "we have now received" are translated from the Greek word lambanó, which means:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
HELPS Word-studies
According to Romans 5:11, the receiver of the reconciliation is to "actively lay hold of to take or receive" ... the receiver of the reconciliation is to "lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered)".
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Thats error. The atonement/reconciliation isnt a offer, its a accomplished act Rom 5:10 !
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Look up the word "received" in Romans 5:11. It is the Greek word λαμβάνω lambánō.
Strong’s Definitions:
λαμβάνω lambánō, lam-ban'-o; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove))
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
STRONGS NT 2983: λαμβάνω
to receive (what is given); to gain, get, obtain: absolutely, opposed to αἰτεῖν, Matthew 7:8; Luke 11:10; John 16:24; opposed to διδόναι, Acts 20:35; Matthew 10:8; with the accusative of the thing, Matthew 20:9; Mark 10:30; (Luke 18:30 L text WH text Tr marginal reading); John 7:39; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:5; Romans 5:11; 1 Corinthians 2:12; 1 Corinthians 9:24; 2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 3:14; Hebrews 9:15; (Hebrews 11:13 R G, see ἐπαγγελία, 2 b.; cf. Winer's Grammar, 237 (222)); James 1:12; James 5:7; 1 Peter 4:10; Revelation 4:11; Revelation 5:12, and many other examples
HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
If you have an issue with the words God has chosen to use in Scripture, your issue is not with me ... your issue is with God.
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Look up the word "received" in Romans 5:11. It is the Greek word λαμβάνω lambánō.
Strong’s Definitions:
λαμβάνω lambánō, lam-ban'-o; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove))
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
STRONGS NT 2983: λαμβάνω
to receive (what is given); to gain, get, obtain: absolutely, opposed to αἰτεῖν, Matthew 7:8; Luke 11:10; John 16:24; opposed to διδόναι, Acts 20:35; Matthew 10:8; with the accusative of the thing, Matthew 20:9; Mark 10:30; (Luke 18:30 L text WH text Tr marginal reading); John 7:39; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:5; Romans 5:11; 1 Corinthians 2:12; 1 Corinthians 9:24; 2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 3:14; Hebrews 9:15; (Hebrews 11:13 R G, see ἐπαγγελία, 2 b.; cf. Winer's Grammar, 237 (222)); James 1:12; James 5:7; 1 Peter 4:10; Revelation 4:11; Revelation 5:12, and many other examples
HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
If you have an issue with the words God has chosen to use in Scripture, your issue is not with me ... your issue is with God.
Look up the word "received" in Romans 5:11. It is the Greek word λαμβάνω lambánō.
Strong’s Definitions:
λαμβάνω lambánō, lam-ban'-o; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove))
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
STRONGS NT 2983: λαμβάνω
to receive (what is given); to gain, get, obtain: absolutely, opposed to αἰτεῖν, Matthew 7:8; Luke 11:10; John 16:24; opposed to διδόναι, Acts 20:35; Matthew 10:8; with the accusative of the thing, Matthew 20:9; Mark 10:30; (Luke 18:30 L text WH text Tr marginal reading); John 7:39; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:5; Romans 5:11; 1 Corinthians 2:12; 1 Corinthians 9:24; 2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 3:14; Hebrews 9:15; (Hebrews 11:13 R G, see ἐπαγγελία, 2 b.; cf. Winer's Grammar, 237 (222)); James 1:12; James 5:7; 1 Peter 4:10; Revelation 4:11; Revelation 5:12, and many other examples
HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
If you have an issue with the words God has chosen to use in Scripture, your issue is not with me ... your issue is with God.
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
The one who "remembered the days of old" is recalling the time when Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. The one who "remembered the days of old" is asking where is God who did marvelous works.
You believe the believers prior to Day of Pentecost were "born again" in the same manner as believers after Day of Pentecost? Have you ever read Numbers 11? ... and specifically Numbers 11:25?
Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him [Moses], and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Read the whole record ... from vs 1 through vs 30.
You believe we are born again after Pentecost in the same manner as what occurred back then? You are incorrect in your understanding.
The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He had to go away in order for the Comforter to come:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
and in John 14:26 we learn that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
In Acts 1, just before Jesus ascended into heaven, He told His disciples:
Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The giving of the Holy Spirit on Day of Pentecost was the "promise of the Father" spoken of by Jesus.
In Hebrews 11, after reading of many wonderful believers who lived prior to the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are told:
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise
ForestGreenCook ... you've got some studying to do in order to understand what it is to be born again in our day and time.
The one who "remembered the days of old" is recalling the time when Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. The one who "remembered the days of old" is asking where is God who did marvelous works.
You believe the believers prior to Day of Pentecost were "born again" in the same manner as believers after Day of Pentecost? Have you ever read Numbers 11? ... and specifically Numbers 11:25?
Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him [Moses], and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Read the whole record ... from vs 1 through vs 30.
You believe we are born again after Pentecost in the same manner as what occurred back then? You are incorrect in your understanding.
The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He had to go away in order for the Comforter to come:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
and in John 14:26 we learn that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
In Acts 1, just before Jesus ascended into heaven, He told His disciples:
Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The giving of the Holy Spirit on Day of Pentecost was the "promise of the Father" spoken of by Jesus.
In Hebrews 11, after reading of many wonderful believers who lived prior to the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are told:
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise
ForestGreenCook ... you've got some studying to do in order to understand what it is to be born again in our day and time.
The Godhead consists of three functions, The Father, creator, the Son, the redeemer, the Holy Spirit, the quickener. The Holy Spirit also has three functions, the quickener, The revelator, and the comforter.
The old testament elect saints were quickened to a spiritual life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the same manner that all of his elect are quickened from the beginning of this world until the end of it.
The Holy Spirit is said to be "upon" them blessing them in their interactions with other people such as Nahor, Rachel's father, could see that the Spirit of God was upon Jacob and Nahor was receiving blessing from God because of Jacob's presence.
The Spirit of God is upon his born again children directing the ways that they should go.
Are you going to disregard Isa 63:11 as being true? How do you interpret the verse?
Instead of stating your opinion, back it up with scripture. All scriptures must harmonize before you can see the truth.
WORD SEARCH: elect unbeliever
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the KJV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the NLT.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-really-accomplish.199050/page-9#post-4588434
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the NIV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=NIV#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the ESV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=ESV#s=s_primary_0_1
here are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the CSB.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=CSB#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the NET.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=NET#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the RSV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=RSV#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the ASV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=ASV#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the YLT.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=YLT#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the DBY.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=DBY#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the WEB.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=WEB#s=s_primary_0_1
There are no concordance results for "elect" AND "unbeliever" in the HNV.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=elect+unbeliever&t=HNV#s=s_primary_0_1
You still in error. The reconciliation is an established fact, not an offer.
Your problem is with God ... it's His Word and He chose to state in Romans 5:11:
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received [Greek lambánō] the atonement.
HELPS Word-studies:
2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
In Post #164 you provided information regarding the Greek word katallagē (translated "atonement" in Rom 5:11).
Look up the word lambánō (translated "received" in Rom 5:11).
Are you going to disregard Isa 63:11 as being true?
ForestGreenCook said:
How do you interpret the verse?