The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Unbelief is iniquity. However, the context of that passage and every other passage you have quoted state the exact opposite. Faith is a precondition to forgiveness. Without faith, there is no forgiveness. The entire book of Acts is about the importance of preaching and people’s response of faith in God’s grace in Christ. In fact, all of the NT makes this very evident. (John 18; John 20:31; 1 John 5:5; Heb 3:12, 19; Romans 11:23; Revelation 3:3; 21:8) At some point you’re going to have to respond to the scriptures I quote and not just cite random verses as evidence of your view.
It is true that God forgives all iniquity, including our past unbelief and sins committed in our unbelief. So I am not arguing that the verses you are posting are false. However, you are making them say MORE than what they actual claim. God forgives past unbelief when a someone comes to faith. They are NOT saying that someone who continues in unbelief will be forgiven. I have just listed a few passages that directly contradict such a claim. I could literally list 40-50 more if you need more convincing. But I’ll wait until you actually respond to a passage i cite before bothering. It seems you’re content to just throw verses out without actually engaging in a discussion about them.
It is true that God forgives all iniquity, including our past unbelief and sins committed in our unbelief. So I am not arguing that the verses you are posting are false. However, you are making them say MORE than what they actual claim. God forgives past unbelief when a someone comes to faith. They are NOT saying that someone who continues in unbelief will be forgiven. I have just listed a few passages that directly contradict such a claim. I could literally list 40-50 more if you need more convincing. But I’ll wait until you actually respond to a passage i cite before bothering. It seems you’re content to just throw verses out without actually engaging in a discussion about them.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemptionthat came by Christ Jesus.
No where do we read that righteousness is given apart from faith. The Bible says the opposite of what you are claiming. You need To show how these texts do not mean what they clearly state.
No where do we read that righteousness is given apart from faith. The Bible says the opposite of what you are claiming. You need To show how these texts do not mean what they clearly state.
You are responding, but not actually addressing any verse I have cited or addressed any of my examination of the context of the verses you cite. You just make a new statement and cite another verse. That‘s not really a response. It’s just another statement that basically ignores my comments altogether. In a conversation, you try to acknowledge what another person said, examine their statements and either agree or disagree with what was said. You dont just launch into an entirely different verse and a different message. Based on your responses, It’s impossible for me to even know if you read anything I have written…. I have the courtesy to respond to your statements, examine the verses you quote and show why I disagree. You just ignore what I said and quote a new verse. It seems entirely fruitless. So, I will bow out of the conversation with you. Have a blessed day.
ok ... got it. to me, there is a difference between (bold mine)
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The first statement led me to believe you were saying the Lord Jesus Christ died only for those who believe.
I do not know why it is so difficult for some to believe the fact that God allowing some to reject Him does not diminish God's sovereignty. God is sovereign overall. That some men choose to reject God does not affect His sovereignty any more than satan's rebellion affected God's sovereignty. God's sovereignty was unaffected by satan's prideful fall. satan only hurt himself ... just as man, when he or she rejects God, he or she only hurts him- or herself. Those who reject God do not partake of the limitless blessings God has in store for those who love Him.
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... no it doesn't. The unbelief of mankind does not in any way, shape, or form cause any failure on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ.The offering of the Lord Jesus Christ is more than sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind ... all Adam's descendants.
That some reject that which God has so graciously provided does not mean "Christ's Death failed !"
... you speak out of both sides of your mouth, brightfame52.On the one hand you state: God delivers "from bondage, and captivity to sin, which unbelief/disobedience is"
and on the other hand you state: "those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners"
so, are we delivered "from bondage, and captivity to sin, which unbelief/disobedience is"? ...
or can we reject God because we "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners"?
What Jesus told the believing Jews in the presence of the unbelieving Jews:
John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
then the unbelieving Jews started arguing with Jesus and Jesus made the statement "if the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed".
stop with your lie that the Lord Jesus Christ failed or that the purpose of God failed.
Here's what Jesus said in John 8:24, brightfame52:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
So the One Who died for the whole world also said if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
What the Lord Jesus Christ did not say is "if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins and My death failed the purpose of God" as you claim. So just stop with your outrageous lies about the Lord Jesus Christ and the purpose of God.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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I don't think brightfame52 believes in universalism. What he believes is that the world referred to in John 1:29, 3:16-17 and elsewhere and the whole world referred to 1 John 2:2 does not refer to all mankind
The claim of brightfame52 is that the world and the whole world referenced in Scripture refers only to the "elect" (i.e. the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ was insufficient to cover the sins of the whole world).
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The claim of brightfame52 is that the world and the whole world referenced in Scripture refers only to the "elect" (i.e. the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ was insufficient to cover the sins of the whole world).
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"those God so Loved" ...
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
lie of the adversary ...
... the false teacher is the one who claims "Christ's death came to nought, it was defeated"
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
lie of the adversary ...
... the false teacher is the one who claims "Christ's death came to nought, it was defeated"2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Clearly you do not understand reconciling (Greek katallássō ).
The word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.
God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.
The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).
Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.
If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).
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The word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.
God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.
The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).
Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.
If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).
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Well, I dont think that is what brightframe is saying as she clearly says that ”God forgives all iniquity“ and includes unrepentant unbelief as part of that iniquity (as she has continually countered my claim that unrepentant unbelief is not forgiven and that the Bible clearly states that grace only comes through faith). But you may be right. I have no idea really what she believes as she refuses to engage in a meaningful dialogue but just keeps making the same statement repetitively and seems unwilling to engage comments and questions in a thoughtful way.
Well I agree that technically there is a difference, but, imo, when the Bible makes the former statement, it is clearly implying the latter. I think that is the confusion I thought I was seeing in your dialogue with brightfame. However, after conversing with him/her it’s hard to know what to think of what they believe. Its hard to deduce much from one sentence replies that dont answer questions or engage Scriptures
I agree with this. God is completely sovereign. However, in His sovereignty he has chosen to give people freedom to choose and save people based on faith. Romans 9 makes this abundantly clear. I have never understood the idea that God can only be sovereign if he dictates every choice man makes. In fact, I think His sovereignty is more pronounced that He is able to accomplish all of His will and plans even in the face of man’s freedom to choose. God‘s power is not diminished by our freedom to choose nor is his glory lessened by permitting us the ability to accept or reject his grace. The idea that somehow God loses glory if man is able to choose his grace has never made sense to me. On the flip side, I think a lot of questions arise when we consider the implications of God dictating every choice and what that means in regards to his “will” expressed throughout Scripture to follow his Law and believe in his Son. I have never understood how someone can believe that God desires people to believe but does not grant them the capacity to do so (if He alone can quicken a person‘s spirit and choose them to be His elect). Anyway, I think we are on the same page.
I agree with this. God is completely sovereign. However, in His sovereignty he has chosen to give people freedom to choose and save people based on faith. Romans 9 makes this abundantly clear. I have never understood the idea that God can only be sovereign if he dictates every choice man makes. In fact, I think His sovereignty is more pronounced that He is able to accomplish all of His will and plans even in the face of man’s freedom to choose. God‘s power is not diminished by our freedom to choose nor is his glory lessened by permitting us the ability to accept or reject his grace. The idea that somehow God loses glory if man is able to choose his grace has never made sense to me. On the flip side, I think a lot of questions arise when we consider the implications of God dictating every choice and what that means in regards to his “will” expressed throughout Scripture to follow his Law and believe in his Son. I have never understood how someone can believe that God desires people to believe but does not grant them the capacity to do so (if He alone can quicken a person‘s spirit and choose them to be His elect). Anyway, I think we are on the same page.