The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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brightfame52

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nope ... prior to being born again, every believer is born dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).

In Rom 6:6 we read ... Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

until a person is born again, he or she has only the "old man" (who he or she is in Adam) in which to live (Eph 2:1).

after a person is born again, the instruction is to put off the old man (Eph 4:22; Col 3:9) and put on the new man (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).

until a person is born again, he or she has no "new man" to put on.





2 Cor 5:14 does not make "the same point" as Rom 6:3-6.

the point of 2 Cor 5:14 is that all were dead ... all descendants of Adam are born dead in trespasses and sins.

Those who believe the gospel of Christ (which is the power of God unto salvation – Rom 1:16), are born just as dead in trespasses and sins as those who reject the gospel of Christ.

Those who believe the gospel of Christ are further instructed in 2 Cor 5:15:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

The born again one is to live unto Him which died for [us], and rose again ... that would be the Lord Jesus Christ. Our lives are no longer our own ... we belong to the One Who ransomed us from the power of sin and death. We live our lives as He, the Head of His body, directs.

So when we read in Scripture "put off the old man", we are to do what we are told:

Ephesians 4:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts


The above illustrates who we were in Adam (the "old man") which we are told to put off.


Ephesians 4:

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


the above verses as well vss 25-32 illustrate who we are in the Lord Jesus Christ (the "new man") which we are told to put on.

God creates "new man" within the believer moment the he or she is born again (2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new) ... that is what God works in us.

The born again one is instructed to leave the old behind and live in the new ... the new man is the life of the born again believer.

For the born again believer to continue to live in light of who he or she was in Adam is a tragedy ...





consider the instruction in Romans 6:

Romans 6:

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

we are not to yield to sin ... we are to yield ourselves unto God (vs 13).

putting off the old and putting on the new ... it is in the new man that we are "freed from sin Rom 6:7 !".
.
More opposing the truth
 
in Heb 2:9 we are told that the Lord Jesus Christ tasted death for every man ... that is every descendant of Adam.
No, we are told He tasted death for everyone, Now let's see who the passage describes as the everyone


then in Heb 2:10 we are told that the Lord Jesus Christ brings many sons unto glory ... i.e. not every descendant of Adam.
So, you already see it is not everyman, or everyone, so let's read with that in mind


You had a very nice quote from Spurgeon which I totally agree with, I love Spurgeon and His wisdom! But if you do not mind, let 's stay focused on this section; I will bolden the portions of this section that highlight and define the "everyone"

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one:
for which cause he is not ashamed
to call them brethren,


12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren,
in the midst of
the church will I sing praise unto thee.


13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The words here for "he took on" was used when Peter had been walking on the water, and began to sink, Jesus reached out and Took hold of Him

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Why did I take time to lay this out?Because it defines the objects of Jesus Covenant work on the cross!
You suggested from vs,9 that it was the seed of Adam, but the text itself defines it as the seed of Abraham.
That tells us it was a Covenant death based on the promises made in the Abrahamic Covenant.
Everything bolded in red, cannot be true of the unsaved people who descend from Adam,
In other words they cannot be described as;
the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham.
Hope this is helpful!

 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Unfortunately many are willfully dismissive of that context showing exactly who the every person is. Also in the 13 th Chapter of that book its plain that Christ tasted death for His Sheep since He rose as the Shepherd of the Sheep

Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

So its only scriptural and reasonable and honest that the very man in Heb 2:9 are the Sheep !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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It the death of Christ, for those He died, He through His death redeemed them from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hence, none for whom He died can be of these here Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Christ could never say those words to them He gave Himself for and redeemed them from all iniquity, for they have no iniquity to work ! 61
 
Mar 23, 2016
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in Heb 2:9 we are told that the Lord Jesus Christ tasted death for every man ... that is every descendant of Adam.

then in Heb 2:10 we are told that the Lord Jesus Christ brings many sons unto glory ... i.e. not every descendant of Adam.
you already see it is not everyman, or everyone
what I see is that the many sons spoken of in Heb 2:10 does not negate the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every man, woman and child who is a descendant of Adam (Heb 2:9).

Hebrews 2:

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The death of the Lord Jesus Christ is a more than sufficient sacrifice/offering for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam. However, only the many sons who make the Lord Jesus Christ the captain of their salvation are brought unto glory.

There is only One Offering whereby descendants of Adam are saved ... there is only One Mediator between God and descendants of Adam ... the Lord Jesus Christ.




Iconoclast said:
You suggested from vs,9 that it was the seed of Adam, but the text itself defines it as the seed of Abraham.
the text itself defines the many sons (vs 10) who are brought unto glory as the seed of Abraham.




Iconoclast said:
Everything bolded in red, cannot be true of the unsaved people who descend from Adam,
In other words they cannot be described as;
the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham.
Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "the unsaved people who descend from Adam" are described as the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham.

I never stated what you claim ...
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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the death of Christ, for those He died
Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




brightfame52 said:
Titus 2:14
:rolleyes: ... after reading your Post 2823, I was hoping you had finally decided you were interested in reading verses within the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them ... then in the very next post you submitted, you jumped right back in to your usual pattern ...

Let's read some verses before the verse you ripped from its context:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


vs 11 – God's grace brings salvation and God's grace has appeared to all men ... all descendants of Adam.

vs 12 – God's grace teaches us ... trains us ... to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and teaches us ... trains us ... to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.

vs 13 – we are expectantly awaiting the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ.

vs 14 – it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who gave Himself for us ... the Lord Jesus Christ redeems from all iniquity those who believe in Him. Out of the "all men" to whom God's grace has appeared (vs 11), only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are redeemed.

The believer is redeemed from all iniquity after he or she believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and is born again ... then the believer is purified ... then the believer is zealous of good works.




brightfame52 said:
Matt 7:23
you really should read the full sermon the Lord Jesus Christ taught the people ... from Matthew 5:1 through Matthew 7:29. However, it appears you prefer not to read verses within the context ... so at the very least, let's include vss 21 and 22 when reading vs 23:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

vs 21 – some folks sitting in churches believe they are born again believers; however, this section of Scripture tells us this is not so. Only those who do the will of the Father in heaven will enter into the kingdom of heaven. The will of the Father is to believe on Him Whom the Father has sent.

vs 22 – some folks who think they're born again will stand before the judgment seat and claim the works they have done in the name of the Lord.

vs 23 – Jesus will send them away telling them He never knew them. :(




brihtfame52 said:
Christ could never say those words to them He gave Himself for and redeemed them from all iniquity, for they have no iniquity to work !
:rolleyes: ... brightfame52, prior to being born again (if you are born again), you were just as steeped in iniquity as every other descendant of Adam ... notwithstanding your claim that you are "elect" and, therefore, "born justified" so "sins can't be imputed or charged to" you.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 
what I see is that the many sons spoken of in Heb 2:10 does not negate the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every man, woman and child who is a descendant of Adam (Heb 2:9).

Hebrews 2:

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The death of the Lord Jesus Christ is a more than sufficient sacrifice/offering for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam. However, only the many sons who make the Lord Jesus Christ the captain of their salvation are brought unto glory.

There is only One Offering whereby descendants of Adam are saved ... there is only One Mediator between God and descendants of Adam ... the Lord Jesus Christ.





the text itself defines the many sons (vs 10) who are brought unto glory as the seed of Abraham.





Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "the unsaved people who descend from Adam" are described as the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham.

I never stated what you claim ...
.
So, you already see it is not everyman, or everyone, so let's read with that in mind

You had a very nice quote from Spurgeon which I totally agree with, I love Spurgeon and His wisdom! But if you do not mind, let 's stay focused on this section; I will bolden the portions of this section that highlight and define the "everyone"

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one:
for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren,
in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.


13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


The words here for "he took on" was used when Peter had been walking on the water, and began to sink, Jesus reached out and Took hold of Him

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Why did I take time to lay this out?Because it defines the objects of Jesus Covenant work on the cross!
You suggested from vs,9 that it was the seed of Adam, but the text itself defines it as the seed of Abraham.

That tells us it was a Covenant death based on the promises made in the Abrahamic Covenant.
Everything bolded in red, cannot be true of the unsaved people who descend from Adam,
In other words they cannot be described as;
the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham.
Hope this is helpful!
 
Nov 21, 2020
6,080
525
113
Christ's Covenantal Death, opens the eyes of the blind !

Did you know that one of the purposes and residual effects of Christ's Death for all whom He died is that they will have spiritual eyes open ? Isa 42:6-7

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; See Rom 8:32

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Gods elect are by nature spiritually blind, but Christ's death for them effects an opening of their spiritually blind eyes. Jesus said once that His purpose for coming was Judgment, observe Jn 9:39

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that[hina of purpose] they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Thats why He says His Fathers Will was this Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Believing on Him accompanies the seeing of Him, and this was the result and the will of Him that sent Him, that gave Him to be a Covenant of the People, the People of the Elect or His Sheep, or His Body the Church!
 
Nov 21, 2020
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Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





:rolleyes: ... after reading your Post 2823, I was hoping you had finally decided you were interested in reading verses within the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them ... then in the very next post you submitted, you jumped right back in to your usual pattern ...

Let's read some verses before the verse you ripped from its context:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


vs 11 – God's grace brings salvation and God's grace has appeared to all men ... all descendants of Adam.

vs 12 – God's grace teaches us ... trains us ... to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and teaches us ... trains us ... to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.

vs 13 – we are expectantly awaiting the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ.

vs 14 – it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who gave Himself for us ... the Lord Jesus Christ redeems from all iniquity those who believe in Him. Out of the "all men" to whom God's grace has appeared (vs 11), only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are redeemed.

The believer is redeemed from all iniquity after he or she believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and is born again ... then the believer is purified ... then the believer is zealous of good works.





you really should read the full sermon the Lord Jesus Christ taught the people ... from Matthew 5:1 through Matthew 7:29. However, it appears you prefer not to read verses within the context ... so at the very least, let's include vss 21 and 22 when reading vs 23:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

vs 21 – some folks sitting in churches believe they are born again believers; however, this section of Scripture tells us this is not so. Only those who do the will of the Father in heaven will enter into the kingdom of heaven. The will of the Father is to believe on Him Whom the Father has sent.

vs 22 – some folks who think they're born again will stand before the judgment seat and claim the works they have done in the name of the Lord.

vs 23 – Jesus will send them away telling them He never knew them. :(





:rolleyes: ... brightfame52, prior to being born again (if you are born again), you were just as steeped in iniquity as every other descendant of Adam ... notwithstanding your claim that you are "elect" and, therefore, "born justified" so "sins can't be imputed or charged to" you.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
Its obvious you dont agree that Christs Death redeemed from iniquity them He gave Himself for. That is not good my friend
 
Nov 21, 2020
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@reneweddaybyday

what I see is that the many sons spoken of in Heb 2:10 does not negate the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every man, woman and child who is a descendant of Adam (Heb 2:9).
Then you reading into the text that which isnt there. Context shows us that the every one is Identified as the seed of Abraham He tasted death for, everyone of them Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation [by death] for the sins of the people.


The words " he took on" is the greek epilambanomai :

  1. to lay hold of or to seize upon anything with the hands, to take hold of, lay hold of
  2. metaph. to rescue one from peril, to help, succour
Thats His saving Mission is to specifically for the seed of Abraham. Now all of Adams descendants are not the seed of Abraham, thats a separated society from the rest of mankind.

Vs17 says to make by the taste of death reconciliation for the sins, of not all mankind, but "the people" with the definite article

ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ

Definite article fpr specific sins and specific people !
 
Nov 21, 2020
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Christ's Covenantal Death, opens the eyes of the blind !2

The Opening of the blind eyes here in Isa 42:7 is not speaking of regular physical blindness, but a spiritual blindness of the mind as per Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

This is important because true conversion must and does believe with the heart Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But not possible if in our native blindness of heart.

Man cant believe the Gospel with a blinded mind 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In fact being in that condition is being in a lost condition.

Now that this opening of blind eyes has to do with bringing them to Faith or Believing is confirmed by the next phrase as to what the Covenant Death of Christ Effects, Isa 42:7

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Now what meaneth this "to bring out the prisoners from the prison" ? Why its the prison of unbelief ! 61
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Christ's Covenantal Death, opens the eyes of the blind !3


Isa 42:7

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

This is the prison house of unbelief ! Paul writing to the Romans Chapter 11, speaking of both jew and gentile elect writes this Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

In Gods Purpose of Mercy for the Elect both of the jews and gentiles He concluded them in unbelief. What does the word concluded mean ? Its the greek word sygkleiō and means


  1. to shut up together, enclose

    1. of a shoal of fishes in a net
  2. to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

The word is used here as shutting of a prison Acts 5:23

Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.

The Elect as well as all men by nature are imprisoned in Unbelief !

However the Death of Christ effects a bringing out of the prison of unbelief for the Elect !