The banishment of Adam and Eve

[crossnote]

The tree of knowledge is basically the Mosaic law handed down to Israel. Knowledge of sin. The wages of sin is death. Without this, no one would hope for Jesus or the fruit of the tree of life.

I don't think so. After the Fall, eternal life was apprehended through faith...

Hebrews 11:4-5 (KJV) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:7-8 (KJV) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The just shall live by faith, and the law is apart from faith.

 

[Magenta]

the way to the garden wasn't closed until after Genesis 3. the scripture doesn't say God brought Adam out of the garden on vacation or something to go see all the other living souls, but says He brought them to Adam. Adam's in the garden. God brings every creature to Adam. God clearly doesn't have a problem with His creation being in the garden He created.

i'm not sure what your underlying premise here is -- do you think the presence of another living soul other than an human would 'sully' the place? i just don't see any reason to think the grounds were 'exclusive to VIP humans no butterflies allowed'

Clearly Nehemiah has no problem adding to Scripture while denying what is explicitly stated

 

[ewq1938]

You may place your worldly judgment on what miracles Jesus performed were needed or not, but most feed on the truth and tend to discounter doubters' opinions.

In other words your position does not originate from scripture while mine does. No scripture describes any walking through a door or wall there and no scripture post-gospels ever mentions this either. It's just a tradition man made up. I reject made up traditions from man and prefer only what comes from scripture.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I don't think so. After the Fall, eternal life was apprehended through faith...

Hebrews 11:4-5 (KJV) By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:7-8 (KJV) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The just shall live by faith, and the law is apart from faith.

So, if the Tree of Knowledge provides knowledge of good and evil, and the Mosaic Laws provide knowledge of sin (evil) ... then what's the difference? I mean they both are essentially performing the same function and both, by the way, cause death. The result of both is the same. I'm sure you can't exactly deny that. It is what is. Both cause the same effect and both have the same consequences.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I think people are thinking that the Garden was off limits to animals. I don't see it that way. I know it's a spiritual construct, the "garden" in Eden.

The concepts here are an image. This is my interpretation (and only an interpretation, not saying it's doctrine) that as God made man to "dress" the garden (or vinedressers to keep the vineyards, or shepherd husbandmen to the flocks in the pastures) I believe the garden (vineyards, pastures) represent a holy place, a sanctuary, where the instruction of righteousness is to be performed. In other words, a synagogue or church. The beasts are often analogous to heathens in need of hearing righteousness and learning faith. The beasts most naturally must come into the garden, it is a special place for that purpose with a priest administering to God and serving mankind.

Bringing the creatures to Adam to see what he would call them is symbolic of something, though I'm not sure which. I'm thinking it has to do with Jesus calling his flock or something to do with the concept of clean and unclean. But, that's a wild guess.

As God thrust out Adam from his garden and presence, he then must go out into the "field" the world outside the church sanctuary, and by curse, with bitterness, perform evangelizing works to teach the thorns, the tares, the weeds and the ungodly of God. It was a curse because the "field" is not a fruitful place. There would be little fruitful gain in this place.

When God told him he would "till the ground" and it would yield thorns and thistles, it means man's ministry was not going to be very fruitful. Or giving us a glance that the law was not going to be the method of salvation.

I see patterns and designs in the scriptures of people, places and events. I see intersections all over the place that always bring to mind these images. Many "dots" connect. It's just a matter of which similitude is which.

 

[posthuman]

In other words your position does not originate from scripture while mine does. No scripture describes any walking through a door or wall there and no scripture post-gospels ever mentions this either. It's just a tradition man made up. I reject made up traditions from man and prefer only what comes from scripture.

what comes from scripture is that He appeared in a closed and-or locked room.
don't you think it's a bit weird for God to include that detail if all it means is He entered the room normally with nothing special about it..?

 

[ewq1938]

what comes from scripture is that He appeared in a closed and-or locked room.
don't you think it's a bit weird for God to include that detail if all it means is He entered the room normally with nothing special about it..?

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

They aren't even shocked. There is nothing here to suggest he walked through a wall or door. This suggests he simply opened the door and walked in.

 

[posthuman]

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

They aren't even shocked. There is nothing here to suggest he walked through a wall or door. This suggests he simply opened the door and walked in.

John's been carefully proving that He is Almighty Creator God for 20 chapters. by this time John doesn't need to point out that He's performing supernatural, miraculous acts and saying profoundly divine things every moment of every day.
in that context it's not a surprise that He can appear anywhere, completely subjecting all natural law to His will. if we've been keeping up, we're supposed to naturally assume it.

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”​

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.​

(Luke 24:36-43)​

​

Luke has a slightly different approach than John does; John writing after the other 3 gospels have already been widely circulated. Luke ((telling Peter's account)) has a bit more narrative of a text, with less presumed prior knowledge.

nobody who believes they're seeing a ghost thinks that the ghost has used the doorknob and walked in like an ordinary human.

 

[ewq1938]

nobody who believes they're seeing a ghost thinks that the ghost has used the doorknob and walked in like an ordinary human.

Yet there was one disciple not there so they might have not even noticed that the door was opened and shut or assumed it was the other disciple showing up late.

There still is no actual evidence of the so called walking through a solid object in any of the gospels. Can he? Sure, he is God. Did he? Maybe, but I try to use exegesis without unnecessary assumptions. Another example is how did he get to that place? Did he fly or walk? I would say he walked because that doesn't need to assume something miraculous regarding his method of travel which also excludes the need to assume he traveled through a door or wall as well.

 

[posthuman]

Yet there was one disciple not there so they might have not even noticed that the door was opened and shut or assumed it was the other disciple showing up late.

There still is no actual evidence of the so called walking through a solid object in any of the gospels. Can he? Sure, he is God. Did he? Maybe, but I try to use exegesis without unnecessary assumptions. Another example is how did he get to that place? Did he fly or walk? I would say he walked because that doesn't need to assume something miraculous regarding his method of travel which also excludes the need to assume he traveled through a door or wall as well.

Luke 24:30-31
Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke [it,] and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.

So how did He leave that room?
Through the door?

This happens just before He appears to them. It was this event they were talking about purple hen He appeared. They were telling the other disciples how Jesus had appeared to them, but then "vanished"

Why should I think it's anything other than exactly the same phenomena?

 

[posthuman]

purple hen He appeared

Lol what a weird autocorrect.
That should be "when He appeared"

 

[ewq1938]

Luke 24:30-31
Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke [it,] and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.

So how did He leave that room?
Through the door?

This happens just before He appears to them. It was this event they were talking about purple hen He appeared. They were telling the other disciples how Jesus had appeared to them, but then "vanished"

Why should I think it's anything other than exactly the same phenomena?

Yes it is but you have the wrong phenomena. He isn't zipping through solid objects. He is opening and closing their eyes.

 

[posthuman]

Yes it is but you have the wrong phenomena. He isn't zipping through solid objects. He is opening and closing their eyes.

there are 4 different miraculous aspects of the disciples meeting with Him on the road to Emmaus & then eating with Him:

1. He hid Himself and they did not know who He is
2. He opened their minds/hearts to understand that the scripture is all about Him
3. He revealed Himself to them and they realized who He is
4. He "vanished before their eyes"

according to Luke's account in the scripture, these disciples who had experienced these 4 supernatural things had just told these 4 supernatural things to the others, and when they tell the 4th supernatural occurrence, His vanishing before their eyes, He suddenly appears in the midst of them, in a room with closed doors.
it is not for no reason that this is written as it is. the fact of the room being locked/closed is not a meaningless detail. God put it there. God doesn't deal in meaningless superfluous data.

you need to deal with the obvious question: why does God make a point to tell us the room was locked/closed?
the rest of us have dealt with this obvious question and come to a conclusion.
do you figure, resurrected Christ now has the power to pick locks?

 

[ewq1938]

there are 4 different miraculous aspects of the disciples meeting with Him on the road to Emmaus & then eating with Him:

1. He hid Himself and they did not know who He is
2. He opened their minds/hearts to understand that the scripture is all about Him
3. He revealed Himself to them and they realized who He is
4. He "vanished before their eyes"

All accomplished the same way, opening or closing the eyes/mind.

you need to deal with the obvious question: why does God make a point to tell us the room was locked/closed?

You keep inserting the word locked when it does not appear in any manuscript. The only word there means to shut. They shut the door so no one could see who was in the room.

So you assume two things not found in the manuscripts:

1. That the door was locked.
2. That Christ walked through a solid object.

Why add to the text? My position is always stick to what is written and leave out what isn't.[/list]

 

[posthuman]

All accomplished the same way, opening or closing the eyes/mind.






You keep inserting the word locked when it does not appear in any manuscript. The only word there means to shut. They shut the door so no one could see who was in the room.

So you assume two things not found in the manuscripts:

1. That the door was locked.
2. That Christ walked through a solid object.

Why add to the text? My position is always stick to what is written and leave out what isn't.[/list]

why does God want you to know the doors were κεκλεισμένων "for fear of the Jews" ?

your little story about oh they didn't bother to look when Jesus deceived them by sneaking in through the door does not hold water.

they were terrified someone would come through the door to round them up and murder them.
if that door even shook they all immediately stared at it.


trying to take the supernatural out of the scripture and replace it with Jesus playing mind games with His disciples just don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[posthuman]

My position is always stick to what is written and leave out what isn't.

so why are you rejecting what's written, "He vanished before their eyes" ?
it doesn't say 'He blinded them with flash powder and snuck out craftily' but that's essentially what you're saying He did.
it doesn't say 'He snuck in unawares and surprised them with His ninja skills' but that's what you'd have me believe.

you'd rather have God deceiving them with card tricks and sleight of hand, than demonstrating that all Creation is under His authority.
i do not understand the appeal of taking that position.

 

[posthuman]

a solid object.

there is no such thing as a solid object.
all matter is 99.9999% empty space.

 

[posthuman]

fact is, the door was shut and they were fearing for their lives, hiding, anxious as could be.
two disciples told them how Jesus had appeared to them and then disappeared into thin air right before their eyes while they were all sitting together eating.
as they were saying this, He appeared in the middle of them.
they were terrified by this appearing. they thought they were seeing ghosts; they thought they were hallucinating - in unbelief because of joy.

 

[ewq1938]

so why are you rejecting what's written, "He vanished before their eyes" ?

That can be done by closing their eyes. He would vanish to them.

you'd rather have God deceiving them with card tricks and sleight of hand, than demonstrating that all Creation is under His authority.
i do not understand the appeal of taking that position.

My position takes only what the text has without adding to it. Your position adds two things to it and is literally suggesting God uses "tricks" to move around.

 

[ewq1938]

there is no such thing as a solid object.
all matter is 99.9999% empty space.

lol, you know what I mean. No one is discussing how solid something is so stick to the topic and not petty side arguments.