The Calvin / Servertus controvercy

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#81
True. But there are how many threads on this topic already and still active? And after this they shall appear again.
I think what gets really old is when those prone to starting these type threads claim someone is a Calvinist just to get them restarted after the accused denies the charge.
I agree. I tend towards Calvinism but recognize Arminianism is just as valid. But then I grew up and continued in Reformed/Calvinist churches. I decided to deeply investigate both and found both have very good scripture references for their beliefs. That means that because neither of them have issues referenced in the creeds they are according to the early elders that wrote the creeds we are to just agree to disagree. Both are equally valid.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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#82
I don't think that Calvinist vs Armenian is the only two options. I think they tried to reconcile scripture to human understanding. I don't think that's necessary to understand or teach Salvation. One negates the other, while they both ignor or gloss over other scriptures. It's my opinion that the scriptures they both use seem to be at odds but are not in reality. In fact they balance and compliment each other if you apply spiritual understanding. Use all the scriptures that they both use to redute each other and read them together as one study.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#83
What's incomprehensible is how someone could insist on believing the lie, spread the anti-Calvinist propaganda, and avoid the truth regardless of how much there is linked in the Calvin threads so as to insure anyone interested in the truth gains the education they sorely demonstrate they lack about the subject.

Don't let history change your mind.
Do you have access to primary sources, scholarly journals and research via a University? Talk to me when you do because I do.

All I read right now are polemical random statements that are not based on any facts or evidence.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#84
What does it matter? Biblically both are equally valid. Both have sites defending their position with lengthy texts with lots of scripture references. Before attacking either you should read these defences carefully to understand what they stand for and the Biblical reason for doing so.

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#86
I don't think that Calvinist vs Armenian is the only two options. I think they tried to reconcile scripture to human understanding. I don't think that's necessary to understand or teach Salvation. One negates the other, while they both ignor or gloss over other scriptures. It's my opinion that the scriptures they both use seem to be at odds but are not in reality. In fact they balance and compliment each other if you apply spiritual understanding. Use all the scriptures that they both use to redute each other and read them together as one study.
How dare you not take a vehement side and trash the other side.
ROFL
Actually I agree with you. With the extensive research on the subject I found both equally Biblical. Strong adherents to either side will vehemently disagree with me.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
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#88
Do you have access to primary sources, scholarly journals and research via a University? Talk to me when you do because I do.
Can't tell.

All I read right now are polemical random statements that are not based on any facts or evidence.[/QUOTE] Yes well, you can choose to miss a lot and make that claim.
Did I miss your posting the transcripts of the Servetus trial? Talk is cheap.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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#89
Do you have access to primary sources, scholarly journals and research via a University? Talk to me when you do because I do.

All I read right now are polemical random statements that are not based on any facts or evidence.
Ahhh, yes. The University. Because the sophist philosophy has served us well thus far.
Oral Roberts had a University, and that fellow Penley, is a professor at a University.
All those guys who wrote the articles that refute the, Calvin is a dastardly murderer, also studied at and teach at Universities. They have such titles as Dr preceeding their names, Like Dr. RC Sproul, everyone of the guys on the panel in the video that Lilly Wolf posted had Dr. Titles.
I can think of nothing that has brought more mediocrity to the development of intellect than the University.
Perhaps you should read a little about the Frankfort school of though that brought us such characters as Saul Alinsky.
The University has brought us minds like Jean-François Lyotard, Jacques Derrida, and Fredric Jameson, who brought us post modern philosophy.

Never had I dreamed of a place where information and ideas and knowledge come together in mass quantity and produced such mass stupidity.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#90
Ahhh, yes. The University. Because the sophist philosophy has served us well thus far.
Oral Roberts had a University, and that fellow Penley, is a professor at a University.
All those guys who wrote the articles that refute the, Calvin is a dastardly murderer, also studied at and teach at Universities. They have such titles as Dr preceeding their names, Like Dr. RC Sproul, everyone of the guys on the panel in the video that Lilly Wolf posted had Dr. Titles.
I can think of nothing that has brought more mediocrity to the development of intellect than the University.
Perhaps you should read a little about the Frankfort school of though that brought us such characters as Saul Alinsky.
The University has brought us minds like Jean-François Lyotard, Jacques Derrida, and Fredric Jameson, who brought us post modern philosophy.

Never had I dreamed of a place where information and ideas and knowledge come together in mass quantity and produced such mass stupidity.

There is a good book about this by Noll called "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind"

What you have written here is quite sad, there is one thing I do respect about the Reformed tradition is that they tend to respect the utility of the intellect and rigorous thought.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
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#91
Information is like a gun, people with good morals and discipline, can have and use it effectively. Some people have lots of access; yet it lays on a shelf and collects dust. Those with no discipline will shoot themselves in the foot, and those with no moral shoot others.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
#92
Ahhh, yes. The University. Because the sophist philosophy has served us well thus far.
Oral Roberts had a University, and that fellow Penley, is a professor at a University.
All those guys who wrote the articles that refute the, Calvin is a dastardly murderer, also studied at and teach at Universities. They have such titles as Dr preceeding their names, Like Dr. RC Sproul, everyone of the guys on the panel in the video that Lilly Wolf posted had Dr. Titles.
I can think of nothing that has brought more mediocrity to the development of intellect than the University.
Perhaps you should read a little about the Frankfort school of though that brought us such characters as Saul Alinsky.
The University has brought us minds like Jean-François Lyotard, Jacques Derrida, and Fredric Jameson, who brought us post modern philosophy.

Never had I dreamed of a place where information and ideas and knowledge come together in mass quantity and produced such mass stupidity.
Having read the history of the incident I would like you to explain how Calvin did the murder by just referring the issue about Servetus to the government. This during those times when government was very tied to religion and also used the court for religious issues. Servetus had written a paper disavowing Jesus. He gave a copy to Calvin who made notes on it about his errors in rejecting Jesus. Servetus redid his notes and returned it to Calvin. At that point Calvin reffered the issue to the government. The government tried him and executed him by burning him at the stake. Calvin tried to have him mercifully killed but that was rejected.

So please explain how Calvin murdered Servetus.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#93
Can't tell.

All I read right now are polemical random statements that are not based on any facts or evidence.
Yes well, you can choose to miss a lot and make that claim.
Did I miss your posting the transcripts of the Servetus trial? Talk is cheap.[/QUOTE]

No you did not miss anything, maybe someday I may actually take the time to do it, it will depend on how much I really care, if I bother to take the time it will be on behalf of one deceased person Servetus who died a horrible death at the stake, a man who was denied counsel and was made sick by the rats feasting on him day and night while he awaited trial.

Calvin by information to the authorities at Vienne through dictated letters, he (Calvin) succeeded in having Servetus thrown into prison there, from whence he escaped, and became an outcast for months.

The malignant and inhuman manner in which this Christian leader followed his innocent victim, could scarcely have occurred upon any other question, but a religious one, and his murderous intent, from the first, is shown by a letter from Calvin to a friend in which he says “Servetus wrote to me lately, and besides his letter sent me a great volume of his ravings, telling me, with audacious arrogance, that I should find there things stupendous and unheard of until now. He offers to come thither if I approve; but I will not pledge my faith to him; for, did he come, if I have any authority here, “I SHOULD NEVER SUFFER HIM TO GO AWAY ALIVE.”

And he proved himself, in this instance, true to his word.
William Simpson
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#94
Having read the history of the incident I would like you to explain how Calvin did the murder by just referring the issue about Servetus to the government. This during those times when government was very tied to religion and also used the court for religious issues. Servetus had written a paper disavowing Jesus. He gave a copy to Calvin who made notes on it about his errors in rejecting Jesus. Servetus redid his notes and returned it to Calvin. At that point Calvin reffered the issue to the government. The government tried him and executed him by burning him at the stake. Calvin tried to have him mercifully killed but that was rejected.

So please explain how Calvin murdered Servetus.
I already have. And Servetus did not disavow Jesus that is a lie.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#95
Any fool living under those circumstances would have known that rejecting Jesus was something you hid from others and paid lip service to Jesus. Otherwise you would get what Servetus got.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#96
“When he came in sight of the fatal pile, the wretched Servetus prostrated himself on the ground and for a while was absorbed in prayer. Rising and advancing a few steps he found himself in the hands of the executioner, by whom he was made to sit on a block, his feet just reaching the ground. His body was then bound to the stake behind him by several turns of an iron chain, whilst his neck was secured in like manner by a coil of a hempen rope.

His two books, - the one in manuscript sent to Calvin in confidence six or eight years before for his stricture, and a copy of the one lately printed at Vienne were fastened to his waist, and his head was encircled in mockery with a chaplet of straw and green twigs bestrewed with brimstone (sulfur). The deadly torch was then applied to the sticks and flashed in his face; and the brimstone catching, and the flames rising, wrung from the victim such a cry of anguish as struck terror in the surrounding crowd.

After this his was bravely silent; but the wood being purposely green, although the people aided the executioner in heaping sticks upon him, a long half hour elapsed before he ceased to show signs of life and suffering.

Immediately before giving up the ghost, with a last expiring effort he cried aloud, “Jesus, thou Son of the Eternal God, have compassion upon me!” All was then hushed, save hissing and crackling of the green wood, and by and by there remained no more of what had been Michael Servetus, but a charred and blackened trunk, and a handful of ashes.”

William Simpson
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#97
Any fool living under those circumstances would have known that rejecting Jesus was something you hid from others and paid lip service to Jesus. Otherwise you would get what Servetus got.
Please, Geneva was not part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1200's what you are stating is not historically accurate.
I will not respond to you anymore.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
#98
Ahhh, yes. The University. Because the sophist philosophy has served us well thus far.
Oral Roberts had a University, and that fellow Penley, is a professor at a University.
All those guys who wrote the articles that refute the, Calvin is a dastardly murderer, also studied at and teach at Universities. They have such titles as Dr preceeding their names, Like Dr. RC Sproul, everyone of the guys on the panel in the video that Lilly Wolf posted had Dr. Titles.
I can think of nothing that has brought more mediocrity to the development of intellect than the University.
Perhaps you should read a little about the Frankfort school of though that brought us such characters as Saul Alinsky.
The University has brought us minds like Jean-François Lyotard, Jacques Derrida, and Fredric Jameson, who brought us post modern philosophy.

Never had I dreamed of a place where information and ideas and knowledge come together in mass quantity and produced such mass stupidity.
Here is the Wikipedia article on that issue. Refute it please.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus

In 1553 Michael Servetus published yet another religious work with further anti-trinitarian views. It was entitled Christianismi Restitutio (The Restoration of Christianity), a work that sharply rejected the idea of predestination as the idea that God condemned souls to Hell regardless of worth or merit. God, insisted Servetus, condemns no one who does not condemn himself through thought, word or deed. This work also includes the first published description of the pulmonary circulation.

To Calvin, who had written his summary of Christian doctrine Institutio Christianae Religionis (Institutes of the Christian Religion), Servetus' latest book was an attack on historical Nicene Christian doctrine and a misinterpretation of the biblical canon. Calvin sent a copy of his own book as his reply. Servetus promptly returned it, thoroughly annotated with critical observations. Calvin wrote to Servetus, "I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity." In time their correspondence grew more heated until Calvin ended it. Servetus sent Calvin several more letters, to which Calvin took offense. Thus, Calvin's frustrations with Servetus seem to have been based mainly on Servetus's departure from biblically-rooted Christian doctrine, but also on his tone, which Calvin considered inappropriate. Calvin revealed these frustrations with Servetus when writing to his friend William Farel on 13 February 1546:

“ Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word; for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive (Latin: Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar).”
Imprisonment and execution
On 16 February 1553, Michael Servetus while in Vienne, France, was denounced as a heretic by Guillaume de Trie, a rich merchant who had taken refuge in Geneva, and who was a good friend of Calvin, in a letter sent to a cousin, Antoine Arneys, who was living in Lyon. On behalf of the French inquisitor Matthieu Ory, Michael Servetus and Balthasard Arnollet, the printer of Christianismi Restitutio, were questioned, but they denied all charges and were released for lack of evidence. Ory asked Arneys to write back to De Trie, demanding proof. On 26 March 1553, the letters sent by Michel to Calvin and some manuscript pages of Christianismi Restitutio were forwarded to Lyon by De Trie. On 4 April 1553 Servetus was arrested by Roman Catholic authorities, and imprisoned in Vienne. He escaped from prison three days later. On 17 June, he was convicted of heresy, "thanks to the 17 letters sent by John Calvin, preacher in Geneva" and sentenced to be burned with his books. In his absence, he and his books were burned in effigy (blank paper for the books).
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,200
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#99
Please, Geneva was not part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1200's what you are stating is not historically accurate.
I will not respond to you anymore.
Probably somewhat more complicated than that, but....

"In 1523, the first Protestants, refugees from France, arrived in Geneva. The new theology soon became very popular. The power of the Catholic Church in Geneva was further weakened following an abortive rebellion in 1526 by the priests in protest of the alliance with Bern and Fribourg. In July 1527, all Catholic priests of noble descent were expelled from Geneva due to their pro-Savoy sentiments. The bishop fled from Geneva to Gex in August 1527, in order to save himself from capture or assassination by Charles III's agents, but still remained officially the bishop of Geneva. The bishop supported for a while the independence of Geneva, but later colluded with Charles III to use his influence to bring about the annulment of the 1526 treaty of alliance. As a result, the Grand Council decided in January 1528 to adhere to the Lutheran faith, and the Pope responded by excommunicating the people of Geneva. Even though Geneva was still under the nominal jurisdiction of a Catholic bishop, the Grand Council took advantage of his absence and initiated a gradual reform in worship along Lutheran lines. "
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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83
Please, Geneva was not part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1200's what you are stating is not historically accurate.
I will not respond to you anymore.
You stating that does not change the fact that the government convicted him of heresy and burned him at the stake.