The Calvin / Servertus controvercy

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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684
113
I'm still reading the link:

CALVIN APPEARS IN THE TRIAL. 113

And further : what one may conjecture from the
information of the minute is plainly proved by the
Registers of the Council. They tell us that, the next
day after this scene, Thursday, the 17th of August,
Calvin, who had been informed of it, demanded an
audience at the Council Chamber. He felt that the
moment had arrived for him to appear, boldly to
resist the hostilities against him of which Servetus
was about to become the occasion, unless they were
energetically opposed from the commencement.*
Ceasing, then, to conceal himself behind La Fon-
taine and Colladon, he became, for the first time,
openly the accuser of the prisoner, and "drew at-
tention to many errors written by the said Servetus,
as his books showed;" declaring "that he did not
wish to excuse himself for having permitted his ser-
vant Nicolas to become a party against the said
Servetus, and that he was now willing to pursue, as
one prepared to be himself the prosecutor."

He added, regarding P. Berthelier, " that he understood,
by the process, that Berthelier had interfered to
plead in excuse and defence of those things which

the said Servetus had consented to name as estab-
lished by his book."* Though the meaning of the
last phrase be not clear, the interposition of Ber-
thelier in favour of Servetus is nevertheless estab-
lished; and this passage of the register perfectly agrees
with the narrative we have given of the interrupted
meeting of the 16th of August. Besides, the protec-
tion held out by Berthelier to Servetus is notorious
— two contemporaries, Rosetf and Theodore Beza:j:
expressly declare it. It was the natural result of
their common hostility to the Reformer; and we
have here the first indication of the support given to
the prisoner by the Libertine party.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I'm still reading the link:

CALVIN APPEARS IN THE TRIAL. 113

And further : what one may conjecture from the
information of the minute is plainly proved by the
Registers of the Council. They tell us that, the next
day after this scene, Thursday, the 17th of August,
Calvin, who had been informed of it, demanded an
audience at the Council Chamber. He felt that the
moment had arrived for him to appear, boldly to
resist the hostilities against him of which Servetus
was about to become the occasion, unless they were
energetically opposed from the commencement.*
Ceasing, then, to conceal himself behind La Fon-
taine and Colladon, he became, for the first time,
openly the accuser of the prisoner, and "drew at-
tention to many errors written by the said Servetus,
as his books showed;" declaring "that he did not
wish to excuse himself for having permitted his ser-
vant Nicolas to become a party against the said
Servetus, and that he was now willing to pursue, as
one prepared to be himself the prosecutor."
You have more patience than me and you are a very quick study!! :cool:
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
113
Of course he did, this makes perfect sense, now the historical record is complete.
Sarcasm aside, if Michael didn't want to be martyred why did he go to the trouble of escaping from Rome and suffering burning there? Only to arrive in Geneva and sit in the front row in the church where his adversary was preaching "Calvinism"?
Nor would Michael Servetus have published a pamphlet entitled, The Errors of the Trinity, wherein he claimed there was no distinct persons in God, accusing certain members of the church of being Sophists, accusing Athanasius of being a Satanist, the Pope of being antichrist, and claiming those men made the Christian God, in teaching a Trinity, like unto a Gorgon and a three headed Cerberus. (The hound of Hell)

What did MS think he was going to accomplish? Overthrow the church and the Ecclesiastical authority?

In those times of the Inquisition where the church executed sentence with the state for blasphemy and heresy in Europe? There was no free speech then. What did Michael think was going to happen? Especially when he was slated to burn in Rome but escaped. And in the interim his writings were burned in effigy.
So he goes to Geneva and sits front and center before the man he had a veritable war of beliefs with? And if you think Calvin ran the courts, that was even more suicidal on Michael Servetus's part.

Now centuries later, two men professing themselves Christian are long rotted to dust.
And on forums across the web of the world, those calling themselves Christian are warring with one another as to which man is responsible for the other turning Devil in the annals of history.

While the tactic of one side supporting and defending Servetus thinks to accuse "CALVINIST!" , anyone they choose in any thread they choose so as to make it appear as if that tradition is one worthy of attack today. And so too are those imagined to be Calvinist. When Michael's tradition actually insulted God and denied Christ was divine.

What a world.
God not only has a sense of humor but he's into abstracts too.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
684
113
You have more patience than me and you are a very quick study!! :cool:
Thanks - this is interesting (gonna take a break to watch Global News)

On the subject of the Geography of Ptolemy, pub-
lished by Servetus, with notes, in one of which, ac-
cording to the libel, some doubts injurious to Moses
were emitted regarding the supposed fertility of Pales-
tine, the accused replied (and he spoke the truth), that
the note founded on was not his, and that sufficed for
his justification ; but he added, that, nevertheless, it
contained nothing reprehensible. This reservation in-
censed Calvin, who now began to speak, and proved,
by many arguments, that such an allegation neces-
sarily inculpated Moses, and was " a great outrage
against the Holy Spirit;" but Servetus would not ac-
quiesce. " So far," says Calvin, " was that vile dog
from being abashed by such pertinent arguments, that
he only twitched his muzzle, saying : ' Let us pass to
something else — there is nothing wrong there.' "*
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
684
113
Lots of intrigue and wrangling - this is quite a way on in the document:

* We have here another opportunity of ascertaining the view
with which Servetus himself now took of his trial. His petition is ad-
dressed to magistrates, as magistrates; for he saw and felt that it
was on the ground of policy, and not of simple heresy, that he was
now prosecuted.

Here, as in his examination, Servetus struggles to
explain away the charge which would have rendered
him truly culpable in the eyes of his judges — that of
being a promoter of dispeace. He tries to keep the
question in a purely speculative region ; and there can
be no doubt, that had he been able to make it appear
to be divested of all practical results, the issue of his
trial would not have been fatal. In the meantime,
his petition did not draw forth any answer from the
Council, which contented itself with resolving that
the prisoner " be held to his replies — to proceed
with the trial, and that his petition be therein inserted."
Meanwhile, the general dispositions of men's minds
in Geneva, and the sentiments which Calvin inspired,
did not allow the imprisonment and trial of Servetus
to leave public opinion in a state of indifference. It was
like a new aliment supplied to passions already keenly
excited; it was an occasion of fear to some, of hope
to others, and of interest to all. From what we know
of the circumstances of the Republic, the adversaries
of Calvin were obliged, in order to counterbalance his
interference in the trial, and derive advantage from it
to themselves, to endeavour to awaken the public
sympathy and commiseration in favour of Servetus.
Calvin, on the other hand, sought to defend himself,
and guide opinion back to its former channel. He em-
ployed the means which his office placed within his
reach, and from the pulpit exposed the errors of Ser-
vetus before a numerous auditory, carefully bringing
out his impiety and his blasphemies, scattering all the
excuses with which men tried to conceal his crime, and
condemning the compassion with which they were
pleased to regard him.* This sermon, which was
probably delivered on the Lord's-day, 27th of August,
testifies also that the Reformer required to employ all
the resources of his influence to neutralize the efforts
of his adversaries, and destroy the public interest
which would have attached to the person of Servetus.

It was with the same design that the Attorney-
General, Rigot (or perhaps under his name, Calvin
himself, as Servetus pretends) prepared a second
indictment against the accused, designed to weaken in
the minds of the judges the impression which his
answers must have produced on them. This docu-
ment consists of two separate parts. The first em-
braces the refutation of the arguments contained in
the petition of Servetus, and establishes the fact, that
the first Christian emperors claimed for themselves the
cognizance and trial of heresies, and that their laws
and constitutions pronounced the pain of death against
" those who thought erroneously of the faith regard-
ing the Trinity," and against blasphemers.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
LILLYWOLF, nice web site, I put it in my fav places for now. Thanx
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
You cannot vanquish a Calvinist
.You may think you can, but you cannot. The stones of the great doctrines so fit into each other that the more pressure there is applied to remove them, the more strenuously do they adhere. And you may mark that you cannot receive one of these doctrines without believing all. C. H. Spurgeon:D
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
113
You cannot vanquish a Calvinist
.You may think you can, but you cannot. The stones of the great doctrines so fit into each other that the more pressure there is applied to remove them, the more strenuously do they adhere. And you may mark that you cannot receive one of these doctrines without believing all. C. H. Spurgeon:D
What is repeatedly ignored by anti-Calvinists, and those that accuse Christians of being Calvinist regardless of their repeated denial, making their accusers guilty of chronic slander and lying, is everything generated in the Calvinist doctrine is grounded in scripture. Every last piece.
The personal agenda of the slanderers and liars then becomes one of malevolence directed toward God and his words. Which predate John Calvin's organization of them into one of what is today thousands of denominations. And as it has been mentioned repeatedly as well, the creedal system is yet another example of man's machinations that utilizes parts of scripture in order to arrive at a man consecrated instrument, contract, of accord. Jesus , it has been said in scripture, never once gave a creed save faith is all that is required in order to enter into the covenant that was created by the creator; grace. A gift of God, not by our works so that none of us may boast we had anything to do with saving ourselves. Predeterminism again? Oh, my.

From the copied excerpt posted above: The document author attempts to imply Calvin pretended to be Servetus in order to author certain documents that would have the man killed.

That is not facts in evidence, nor is it relevant to the decision of the court that Servetus' offenses warranted death by statute. As we see here, this law is not exclusive to Servetus. No one authored it in order to "get" Servetus.
(Excerpt)...."This document consists of two separate parts.
The first embraces the refutation of the arguments contained in
the petition of Servetus, and establishes the fact, that
the first Christian emperors claimed for themselves the
cognizance and trial of heresies, and that their laws
and constitutions pronounced the pain of death against
" those who thought erroneously of the faith regarding the Trinity,"
and against blasphemers.


Michael gave voice to his own execution. Truly it was a horrific way to die. Calvin asked for a more merciful execution of sentence and was denied. He visited Servetus in prison so that Servetus might be given opportunity to recant and be spared the flames after Calvin's imploring the minor council failed.

“Your gospel is without the ONE God, without true faith, without good works. Instead of the one God you have a three headed Cerberus; instead of true faith you have a fatal delusion; and good works you say are empty shows.”
(Michael Servetus's letter, quoted in Kindle location 4259, Standford Rives, Did Calvin Murder Servetus?).

And of course, we are aware of Michael Servetus's Pamphlet, his Pamphlet.
“Your gospel is without the ONE God, without true faith, without good works. Instead of the one God you have a three headed Cerberus; instead of true faith you have a fatal delusion; and good works you say are empty shows.”
(Michael Servetus's letter, quoted in Kindle location 4259, Standford Rives, Did Calvin Murder Servetus?).


God's peace fell on these two men centuries ago. For my part that seems to be long overdue for anyone who respects Soteriology itself and, as displayed by some when afforded the chance and by opening repeated invitations to continue the Calvin abuse, their own relationship with Christ either as a self-confessed Calvinist or a self-confessed other, to leave it all in God's hands. Calvinists worship God. As do Arminians. In the words of The Word we're told, God called his own before the world was created by their name.
As long as the creator of all knows my name, anyone anywhere is welcome to call me anything they wish. For that shows me God's purpose in that he allows that to show me who they are, what calls them, from the inside.


"When the executioner brought the fire before his face he gave such a shriek that all the people were horror-stricken. As he lingered, some threw on wood. In a fearful wail he cried, 'O Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have pity on me!' At the end of half an hour he died.​
"Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of he Eternal God." (Roland Bainton, Hunted Heretic, Kindle edition, location 3096).​
Servetus would be indignant at Philo's identification of God's right reason (logos) as God's first-born, because he says, "But I dispatch the matter in a very few words, and say that the flesh is begotten in the natural way, but the Spirit is not begotten at all; for to say that the Word is begotten is a mere dream, and a great misuse of words." (Michael Servetus, On the Errors of the Trinity, Book I, p. 62, The Two Treatises of Servetus on the Trinity, translated by Earl Morse Wilbur.) He does not really explain why the Word cannot be begotten, other than to point out, as the Muslims do, that it takes two to tango: ". . .for the meaning of the word does not allow that one be called a father apart from a mother." (Michael Servetus, On the Errors of the Trinity, Book I, p. 62, The Two Treatises of Servetus on the Trinity, translated by Earl Morse Wilbur)
Peace and God's protection to anyone who chooses to accept the invitation by those in opposition to Calvin, who see Calvinists everywhere, which is their burden, God have mercy, and continue in this pursuit of hoping to convince one side not to hate. While living as the other side that defends they are not worthy of animus at all.

Amen.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
It would it is best for me to ignore your posts

same conclusion here

she has given way too many folks here a tongue lashing that is not deserved and most don't know what to make of it. I conclude the problem is not at the receiving end

for someone who says they are unsure of their faith on their profile, I don't know what the game is

Peace and God's protection to anyone who chooses to accept the invitation by those in opposition to Calvin, who see Calvinists everywhere, which is their burden, God have mercy, and continue in this pursuit of hoping to convince one side not to hate. While living as the other side that defends they are not worthy of animus at all.
the above is ridiculous

I see Calvinists as they identify themselves in this forum and like another poster in this thread, I never knew one until coming here and sadly have found 2 or 3 to be very mean spirited and apt to do their best to make things highly personal

this is neither godly and certainly not Christian

something is wrong here and it will eventually sort itself out as it always does

ignore is a lovely feature that has been built into this forum for just such a reason
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
GOOD TO REMEMBER:

James 3 The Tongue Is a Fire

3 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

3 Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well.

4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.

5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!

6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by]hell.

7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.

8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water?

12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.