The Church and Anti Antisemitism,Can We Talk About It?

[RachelBibleStudent]

I have no problem with self-identification and self-government of a united group.
I suppose I associate the term "zionism" with people in America throwing money at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and donating money to organizations that send Jews back to Israel.
Sorry if our definitions crossed.

Rather than being Anti any of those things, I think that as Christians we are supposed to stay out of such political minded opinions that have no spiritual value, and only cause wars.

this i am ok with...

but the opinion you are expressing is not really anti zionism...in fact your opinion is not incompatible with zionism...it is more just a disinterest in the whole area of geopolitics...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

People go so far as to rejoice when they hear that a number of Palestinians were killed. I find the whole thing disgusting.

rejoicing over that is also a horrible wicked sin and something that no christian should take part in...

 

[Sophia]

this i am ok with...

but the opinion you are expressing is not really anti zionism...in fact your opinion is not incompatible with zionism...it is more just a disinterest in the whole area of geopolitics...

I would go more with "disgust" in the whole area of geopolitics, but I will accept your analysis.
Perhaps I should research definitions a bit more first before responding. I made an assumption of what "zionism" is.

 

[tribesman]

Paul clearly states that Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel. It is also a false religion. Modern day Judaism does not represent the worship of the One True God, but is worshipping a false God. If they worshipped the True God, they would accept and worship Jesus Christ. The Epistles tell us clearly that those who follow Judaism are not even to be called true Jews.

You need to separate the "ethnic group" from the religion. The Jewish religion is Babylon.
The Jewish people are divided between Believing and unbelieving.
The Believing Jews we accept as brethren, and they are no longer to be considered Jews, as they are now in Christ, and such dividing walls are broken down in Christ.
The unbelieving Jews we view as a mission field, to spread the Good News to, in word and deed.

We have been grafted into the Vine, side by side with Israel(the OT Saints). There is no more distinction between Jew and Gentile. Such labels are done away with. Without labels, there is no basis for persecution. Those who persecute don't believe what they claim to believe.

In this dispensation, there is no such thing as the "Jew" label in a physical sense, except that it is a false label.

"Replacement Theology" is not a correct phrase, as the Truth is "Continuation Theology" and the Church is the continuation of Israel, by being grafted into it.

Excellent post. The foul trend of accusing ones opponents of anti-semitism needs to be dealt with. Let's see if I have any time and strength to contribute to that in this thread.

 

[Jackson123]

i am from Sephardic Semite ancestry on my dad's side. My ancestors left Poland to come to this country in the mid 1800's due to policies that were enacted against them by the Austrian government (they had jurisdiction in the part of Poland they lived in) that took the right of poor Jews to work trades, practice their religion and sustain a decent living. The well off Jews who took the deal from the Austrian government and were allowed to keep their full rights to work and practice religion but the poor were moved into ghettos long before Hitler and co. invaded Poland and well before WWI. Lot's of history to explore there,.......


"In the part of Poland which was governed by Austria, the basic legal regulations concerning Jews were introduced during the late 18th century. They restricted the number of occupations that Jews were allowed to perform (for example they were forbidden to be chemists, brewers or flour-millers), engaging in trade was limited and some of the Jews were forced to move from country to towns. It should be added that some towns still enjoyed the privilege of de non tolerandis Judaeis, such asBiala, Jaslo, Wieliczka and Zywiec. In others, the occupation authorities forced the Jews to live in special quarters, ghettos, in the cities of Lvov, Nowy Sacz and Tarnow. These new regulations, which were introduced as a ''progressive reform'', contributed to the worsening of the living conditions of a large part of Jewish society. According to estimates, in the 1820's in Galicia over forty per cent of all Jews had no permanent employment thus forming the proletariat (Luftmenshen) who lived ''from the air''.

These restrictions applied above all to the poor strata whom the Austrian authorities thought to be a troublesome element. On the other hand, rich entrepreneurs enjoyed a relatively wide scope of freedom of activity. Thus this policy led to the intensification of material and social differences among the Jews. While certain individuals managed to acquire riches, the overwhelming majority lived in poverty.
Jewish merchants played important role in Galicia. Major trade centers were Lvov and Brody. The latter became a large commercial center in Central Europe due to its convenient location across communication routes and to it acquiring, in the first half of the 19th century, customs privileges which promoted trade with Russia."


The struggle of rich Jew vs poor Jew has went on since God brought the children of Israel into the promised land. My ancestors were so angry at their brothers and sisters for doing this that they raised their children Roman Catholic, left Judaism and their past behind them and decided to live as Americans once arriving here. When i was younger i often wondered why every male ancestor on my dad's side going back 4 generations had worked 30-40 years before retiring but have come to understand why they did that. A article explaining what happened there in Poland that seems to have been a catalyst for WWI and WWII is available if you would like to see how it started to go bad after a 1000 years of being a temporary Jewish homeland in Poland here.


As far as Antisemitism that we have experienced since my ancestors arrived here....... My uncle was mentally tortured by his sgt. in the army in the 50's. He goes to the V/A now and receives psychiatric help and meds for being called "Jew boy" and for being tortured by those cruel men just for having a Jewish last name, dark brown hair and blue eyes, It was hard for him to accept then as he did not have knowledge of his Jewish ancestry and thought he was just a Polish/American guy in his early 20's but came to realize later why they did that to him after piecing together our past.

I have experienced hatred from people who have had the same kinds of prejudices taught to them and passed down,( my mom's side is of Scottish ancestry so my facial features aren't as noticeable at least until you see my nose from the side lol.) Nowadays i get a lot of could shoulder....... usually from Hebrew roots people who aren't of Hebrew ancestry but are offended when you don't dance to their piping's......or from other people here that pretend to support Israel and Jewish people but practice bigotry towards us by mocking Jewish culture. I'm certain that God loves everyone Jew or not and offers them the same reward for faith in Jesus Christ, eternal salvation. i don't dislike those who do these things or hate them but i wish they would take into consideration what we as a people have had to go through on our way back to God through Jesus Christ and realize we are all not perfect. If your ancestors did something horrible i would not blame you personally for their actions nor the whole race of people you belong to. Yes the Jews murdered Christ but they also laid their lives down to spread the Gospel.

It sad my friend, that something like this happen. For sure Jesus command us to love even to our enemy.

If it is a church policy than I don't want to be part of that hatred church.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Excellent post. The foul trend of accusing ones opponents of anti-semitism needs to be dealt with. Let's see if I have any time and strength to contribute to that in this thread.

i agree that is also an issue...and misapplying the term 'replacement theology' is itself a problem...while there are people who hold to replacement theology...a lot of the people who are accused of teaching replacement theology are really teaching what i call 'unity theology'...a biblical view that the church and israel are the same body and kingdom defined by relationship with christ instead of by ethnicity...

lol i am one of the few people on this forum with the distinction of having been accused of being both an anti semite -and- an agent of 'the jews'

 

[Reborn]

Paul clearly states that Judaism is an enemy of the Gospel. It is also a false religion. Modern day Judaism does not represent the worship of the One True God, but is worshipping a false God. If they worshipped the True God, they would accept and worship Jesus Christ. The Epistles tell us clearly that those who follow Judaism are not even to be called true Jews.

You need to separate the "ethnic group" from the religion. The Jewish religion is Babylon.

The chosen people/ the promise is with "Israel"/Jacob.
He made a promise He is going to keep with them.

The 12 tribes are from Jacob/Israel (Revelation 7), whom He made a promise to (Isaiah 45:4)
and Paul is from the 12th tribe/ of Benjamin. (Romans 11:1/ Revelation 7:5)

I'm pretty sure they are not grafted in?......they serve a completely different purpose for God. (Revelation 14)

 

[Sophia]

I have received a pm from a brother that warned me about "harming the consciences of others". He was right, and I posted some polarizing material. My intent was not to create any division, but was to heal division. There were several sentences that did not fit this intent, and can be taken very wrongly, and can create further division.
We are to show grace and love to everyone we meet, online or offline, in the way that we were shown grace and love by the Father through Jesus Christ. Please forgive me for my graceless and unloving remarks.

I firmly hold that the Church and Israel are not as easily separable as the mainstream American doctrines teach; but also that such differences are not important enough to create divisions over.

 

[Sophia]

The chosen people/ the promise is with "Israel"/Jacob.
He made a promise He is going to keep with them.

The 12 tribes are from Jacob/Israel (Revelation 7), whom He made a promise to (Isaiah 45:4)
and Paul is from the 12th tribe/ of Benjamin. (Romans 11:1/ Revelation 7:5)

I'm pretty sure they are not grafted in?......they serve a completely different purpose for God. (Revelation 14)

Completely different purpose?
Please explain.
Was Paul not grafted in?

 

[Reborn]

Completely different purpose?
Please explain.
Was Paul not grafted in?

Paul/Apostles were the "first of this kind" / this group, I'd assume?
He was under old law....and then followed Christ.
What does Revelation 14 mean to you?
Same group spoken of in Rev 7?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I firmly hold that the Church and Israel are not as easily separable as the mainstream American doctrines teach; but also that such differences are not important enough to create divisions over.

i agree with not causing unnecessary divisions over nonessential doctrines...

but i also think that the teaching on ingrafting that i like to call 'unity theology' is a big blessing when you understand it...and a blessing that should not be hidden just to avoid upsetting someone...

but if this thread is not the place for it then maybe you can start a new thread to share on that subject...

 

[Sophia]

Paul/Apostles were the "first of this kind" / this group, I'd assume?
He was under old law....and then followed Christ.
What does Revelation 14 mean to you?
Same group spoken of in Rev 7?

You will have to explain better than that.
Paul spoke of natural branches being grafted back in, and included himself in the Church.
Keep explaining, and perhaps I will understand where you are coming from. As of yet, it sounds like you're saying that only 144k Israelites have ever been saved during the past 2000 years. I hope I'm wrong about that assumption of your view.

 

[kaylagrl]

i agree with not causing unnecessary divisions over nonessential doctrines...

but i also think that the teaching on ingrafting that i like to call 'unity theology' is a big blessing when you understand it...and a blessing that should not be hidden just to avoid upsetting someone...

but if this thread is not the place for it then maybe you can start a new thread to share on that subject...

Share whatever you wish.If it gets to far afield I'll tell you

 

[kaylagrl]

I have received a pm from a brother that warned me about "harming the consciences of others". He was right, and I posted some polarizing material. My intent was not to create any division, but was to heal division. There were several sentences that did not fit this intent, and can be taken very wrongly, and can create further division.
We are to show grace and love to everyone we meet, online or offline, in the way that we were shown grace and love by the Father through Jesus Christ. Please forgive me for my graceless and unloving remarks.

I firmly hold that the Church and Israel are not as easily separable as the mainstream American doctrines teach; but also that such differences are not important enough to create divisions over.

Dont worry,its a touchy subject.We all come together with different understandings of certain theologies.It came make your head ache.No worries

 

[kaylagrl]

i agree that is also an issue...and misapplying the term 'replacement theology' is itself a problem...while there are people who hold to replacement theology...a lot of the people who are accused of teaching replacement theology are really teaching what i call 'unity theology'...a biblical view that the church and israel are the same body and kingdom defined by relationship with christ instead of by ethnicity...

lol i am one of the few people on this forum with the distinction of having been accused of being both an anti semite -and- an agent of 'the jews'

As I said in the original post I not trying to hit at anyone church or group of people.I have only known this teaching as replacement theology.Both Catholic and Protestant churches have renounced the idea that the church has replaced the Jews.Maybe Im misunderstanding or missing something.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

i am going to just copy and paste some things i wrote in another thread several months ago...because i think i did a good job of writing it then...


the biggest difficulty that usually comes up right away in discussions of this topic is misunderstanding about what 'replacement theology' actually is...many people assume that anything that isn't dispensationalism must be some form of replacement theology...when really in the scriptural alternative to dispensationalism nothing is actually 'replaced' at all!

the main issue here is understanding what the biblical definition of 'israel' is...here are some scriptures that make it clear...

exodus 12:48..."But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it."

this verse indicates that anyone could join the israelite community and gain all of the 'native born' rights of an israelite...such as the right to celebrate the israelite feasts...by becoming circumcised...that is by entering into the covenant between God and israel...

we are familiar with God's prohibition against israelites intermarrying with people from the surrounding nations...

deuteronomy 23:3-4..."No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the Lord, because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you."

similarly there was a prohibition against israelites marrying the people who were already living in the land before their arrival...

deuteronomy 7:3-4..."Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons."

however we know of cases where israelites -did- intermarry with moabites and canaanites...and in fact there are moabite and canaanite women in the lineage of the messiah...namely...

ruth 4:13..."So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son."
matthew 1:5..."Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse."

so why were these two women exceptions to the rule against intermarriage with gentiles? the answer is in these passages...

joshua 2:11..."When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath."
ruth 1:16-17..."But Ruth said, 'Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. Thus may the Lord do to me, and worse, if anything but death parts you and me.'"

especially compare rahab's confession of faith with the words of moses to the israelites...

deuteronomy 4:39..."Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other."

so a gentile could become part of the israelite community and enter into the covenant through faith in the God of israel...

conversely it was possible for an ethnic israelite to be -excluded- from the israelite community and from the covenant for acts demonstrating -unfaithfulness- to the God of israel...for example...

genesis 17:14..."But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
leviticus 18:29..."For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people."

the apparent fact that comes out of scripture is that israel was never an -ethnic- community at all...nobody was excluded from israel merely on the basis of gentile ethnicity...and likewise nobody was entitled to inclusion in israel solely because of abrahamic ancestry...

instead israel even in the old testament was a -faith- community...a community made up of everyone...whether abrahamic or gentile...who put their faith in the God of israel and chose to bind themselves in covenant to israel's God...

the new testament emphasizes this truth even more strongly...for instance...

ephesians 2:19-22..."So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."

so the church did not 'replace' israel...instead God's israel and God's church are the -same thing-...the church has always been israel and israel has always been church...

even the greek word for 'church'...ekklesia...means an assembly called out...compare that with references to 'the assembly' in the old testament scriptures referring to israel...such as deuteronomy 23:3-4 that i quoted above...

the organic unity of israel and the church is a direct implication of this verse...

ephesians 4:4-5..."There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

if there is only one body and one faith...then israel and the church cannot be two separate bodies treated differently by God as in dispensationalism...nor can they be two separate bodies such that one replaces the other in God's plan as in the -real- replacement theology that actually is taught by some...

israel and the church have always been one faith community...always encompassing both genetic descendants of abraham and also gentiles in unity of faith in God and christ...and they are the sole 'people' with whom God's plan of salvation is concerned...

so the biblical truth is not 'dispensational' theology or 'replacement' theology...the biblical truth is -unity- theology!


i also posted this...


here is one more scripture passage that clearly demonstrates what i am saying...it comes just a little bit before one of the verses i quoted in my previous post but i forgot to include it...

ephesians 2:11-16..."Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called 'Uncircumcision' by the so-called 'Circumcision,' which is performed in the flesh by human hands—remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."

 

[Reborn]

You will have to explain better than that.
Paul spoke of natural branches being grafted back in, and included himself in the Church.
Keep explaining, and perhaps I will understand where you are coming from. As of yet, it sounds like you're saying that only 144k Israelites have ever been saved during the past 2000 years. I hope I'm wrong about that assumption of your view.

If Paul is from one of those tribes, then they are part of his bloodline.
We can assume they are part of the final remnant and the dispersion....2000 yrs later? Yes?
(or whenever you believe that these 144k were sealed off?) IMO--Since the description of the 144,000 isn't untll, between the 6th and 7th seals, I'm going to assume that these were/are sealed off WAY after the cross?

You have to read Rev 14.

Revelation 14
They sing a new song?/ A new prayer?
What could possibly be "new" at this point?
No deceit is found in their mouths?
No deceit? We all have sin in some of our talk?
No one can learn this song?
Well that leave out Christians then?
Firstfruits to God, then the Lamb?

All I know is that.....
They are neither just Christians or just "Jews"
So what is the other alternative?

*Also the "new song" they sing is described in Revelation 5:9

 

[kaylagrl]

Excellent post. The foul trend of accusing ones opponents of anti-semitism needs to be dealt with. Let's see if I have any time and strength to contribute to that in this thread.

While I welcome contributions Tribesman I hope you will not derail the thread into arguments that have nothing to do with the OP.There has been antisemitism in the church,the church has publicly apologized for this.I am wanting to discuss the churches antisemitism and where we have failed. So please keep that in mind.Thank you.

 

[Sophia]

i agree with not causing unnecessary divisions over nonessential doctrines...

but i also think that the teaching on ingrafting that i like to call 'unity theology' is a big blessing when you understand it...and a blessing that should not be hidden just to avoid upsetting someone...

but if this thread is not the place for it then maybe you can start a new thread to share on that subject...

I would enjoy a thread devoted to it. The name seems to fit better than what I have been calling "Continuation Theology".
In a sense, they mean the same thing, as unity and continuity are close synonyms.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

someone might also ask me...'do you think God cares about ethnic jewish unbelievers at all any more?'

my answer to that would be...only God knows and only God has the right to decide how many people from each nation and tribe and tongue he will bring into his kingdom...but my understanding of a certain passage from romans seems to be that in God's plan a large number of ethnic jews who were formerly unbelievers will come to know christ as his return approaches...and at that time they will become part of God's church and the true kingdom of israel and of david...

but make no mistake...unbelievers of -any- ethnicity will not be saved if they remain in unbelief...the one and only way that any ethnic jew will ever be saved is through faith in christ...