The Commandments of God (according to scripture)

Magenta · Dec 30, 2023

TMS said:

1 John 1:8-10~ If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His Word is not in us.

Magenta · Dec 30, 2023

TMS said:

Scripture does not say that.

Romans 8:1-2; 5:57 + 58b

TMS · Dec 30, 2023

Magenta said:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We can't claim the victory, it comes by faith in in Jesus.. We have all sinned and fallen short but Jesus has given us salvation.

Salvation from Sin.
Not so that we can continue to sin..
Sanctification is Jesus overcoming sin in us. Imputed righteousness. I believe in righteousness by faith.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 4:15 ..... for where no law is, there is no transgression.

TMS · Dec 30, 2023

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

TMS · Dec 30, 2023

TMS said:

Sanctification is Jesus overcoming sin in us. Imparted righteousness.
Justification is the gift of righteousness to cover our unrighteousness. Imputed righteousness.
I believe in righteousness by faith. both Jesus covering me with His righteousness and Jesus working His righteousness in my heart each day.

earlybird · Dec 30, 2023

SabbathBlessing said:

Right in the Ten Commandments that God personally wrote and personally spoke Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 He defines this unit of Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 as "My commandments" the "My" part is God so God named them right in the Ten. Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. i.e. commandments of God.

Jesus quotes directly from this same unit of Ten calling it the commandment of God and also interchangeably calling it the Word of God- see Mark 7. Lets take a look. . .

Matthew 15:3 He (Jesus) answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;

What did Jesus just quote from- the Ten Commandments Exo 20:12 calling them the commandment of God- did Jesus misspeak?

and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

He goes on to say....when we keep our rules over the commandment of God our hearts are far from Him (opposite of the NC Heb 8:10) and one worships in vain...

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

This is the fruit of the saints according to scripture (true worship):

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And if you don't trust His commandments are not from the Ten it spells it out for us, the last chapter in the bible once of the last verses before the Coming of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of them 1 John 2:4, James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30)

Our salvation is from sin, sin it the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

There is a real spiritual war going on with our souls. The devil goes to war with those who keep the commandments of God Rev 12:17 just curious does it ever bother anyone why this much contempt for something God wrote, and God spoke, and He is perfect therefore His law is perfect Psa 19:17. Its sad the moral decline we have come as a nation to have this much contempt for something so pure written personally from God. Jesus condemned those who kept their rules over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Commandments. Mat 15:3-9 I wonder if anyone ever takes a step back to reflect which side, they really are on. Scripture warns us when we go away form the truth one will receive strong delusion. God says all His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151 and when we don't keep the commandments there is no truth in us 1 John 2:4. It seems so obvious to me we should obey God the way He asks, the example Jesus left, 1 John 2:6 Hebrews 4:15 1 Peter 2:21-22 how He lived John 15:10 Luke 4:16 what He taught Mat 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-9 Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 John 14:15 Exo 20:6, Jesus would never lead us down the wrong path only teaching us what leads to reconciliation Rev 22:14

We are not saved by law keeping, we are saved by grace through faith. Keeping God's law is a result of faith.

SabbathBlessing what a wonder thread of information. In this modern world we live many times we associate obedience to God as being the equivalent of following the law. Therefore we use the law to toss out all obedience to God. It's as if obedience to God has been cursed by the old law. That is the flawed understanding of many today.

God did two things people often miss:
1. God put His law of the Ten Commandments on "Inside" of the Ark of the Covenant, and he put Moses law on the 'Outside of the Ark of the Covenant.
2. God put His law "Inside" of our hearts and our minds.

We cannot do away with God's law/commandments without doing away with ourselves. Even if one did not want to obey God they would have to obey the new law God has put into their mind and heart. We can't obey one without obeying the other. Thank you for that information, blessings.

Cameron143 · Dec 30, 2023

TMS said:

Walking in the Spirit is not equal to obedience. Walking in the Spirit equals Christ living in us, which leads to perfect obedience. It is being yolked to Christ.
There is a power of God and a power in man. A man trying diligently to keep the commandments is not obedience because it lacks obedience to the command...come unto Me. Jesus living in us doesn't require diligence to keeping the law, but diligence in seeking His kingdom and His righteousness. Everything else will be added...including obedience. This is what it means that Jesus is our Shepherd and we will not want.

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Dec 30, 2023

TMS said:

Acts 15 is clearly about the law of Moses.
The law of God and the law of Moses is not the same.

The ten Commandments and the laws that Moses wrote are not the same.

Moses’ law contained the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross. This law was added “till the Seed should come,” and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16, 19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses’ law pointed forward to Christ’s sacrifice. When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God’s law) “stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:8). It is made clear that there are two laws in Daniel 9:10, 11.

Psa 111:7,8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

There is at least two laws or the bible is contradicting itself in many places.

Col 2:14-20 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; .... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

But the same person said.....Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. .....12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
And Jesus said....Mat 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The shadow laws were added because of sin and ended at the cross. The law of God does not change.

I agree and what I wrote about the law was of course about the law of Moses, @Soyeong insisted we have to follow the law of Moses which is impossible. There is a clear distinction between the law of Moses and the 10 Commandments, that is why the 10 commandments were put inside the ark of the covenant and the temporary law of Moses was put on it's side, bur not inside with the commandments.

The fact that Jesus was teaching the commandments is proof enough that they will never pass. The LORD DOES NOT CHANGE! there is a lot of confusion on this unfortunately.

Blessings brother.

Magenta · Dec 30, 2023

TMS said:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We can't claim the victory, it comes by faith in in Jesus.. We have all sinned and fallen short but Jesus has given us salvation.

Salvation from Sin.
Not so that we can continue to sin..
Sanctification is Jesus overcoming sin in us. Imputed righteousness. I believe in righteousness by faith.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 4:15 ..... for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Scripture still does not say
If you obey the Spirit and don't Sin (The Spirit does not Sin), You are not under the condemnation of the the law.

The_old_guy · Dec 30, 2023

SabbathBlessing said:

Your last sentence is correct. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish them, as he said in the Sermon on the Mount. He came also to establish a new covenant, of which the laws' meanings are a part.

However, the many laws given to the nation of Israel, including the ten you refer to, are in a mostly-external, national form like the unclean and clean foods and the Sabbath rules, but Jesus and Paul clearly said that all foods are clean.

So, what's the Bible's own take? The covenant in the Old and New Testaments has continuity and discontinuity. The continuity between the Old and New Testaments is that the internal meanings of the laws continue on for Christians. For example, the two principles of the Sabbath are rest and worship. We Christians are called to follow those principles of the law. Also, the main idea of the clean and unclean foods is our need to seek God's cleansing of the sin-filth in our lives. Thus, our prayers of confession and asking for Jesus' cleansing through his death are important, though, of course, God's has already justified us, that is, declared us "not-guilty" and right with him as our Judge.

The outward form of the laws have been nailed to Jesus'' cross, according to Colossians 2. Thus, the early church was free to move the day of worship and rest to Sunday to honor Jesus for his resurrection on that day. However, the inner meaning of the laws continue on in our new covenant or testament.

SabbathBlessing · Dec 30, 2023

The_old_guy said:

Well lets quote the scripture, because at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what I or you think, it matters what God thinks and He shares that through His Word.

Jesus speaking…

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Has this been fufilled:

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

Which is prophecy to Revelation (yet to be fulfilled) after Jesus comes for His people

Rev 21:4 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This is just one example, there are lots of prophecies that have not been fulfilled and will not be until we see Jesus on the clouds and His faithful meet Him in the air. 1 Thes 4:17

Heaven and earth has not passed therefore not one dot or i can be removed from His law hence- Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven and the commandments Jesus is referring to is spelled out in Mat5:21-30 the Ten Commandments that God wrote and God spoke that cannot be edited by man. Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 thus saith the Lord.

I pray this helps.

SabbathBlessing · Dec 30, 2023

The_old_guy said:

What was nailed to the cross was the ordinances written by Moses. Not the Commandments written by the finger of God that defines sin Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Obvious when reading Hebrews that the Covenant that changed was the Priesthood and the services that came along with it, animal sacrifices for sin, not the law that points out sin.1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20

Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.

Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
‘You are a priest [f]forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a [g]surety of a better covenant.

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save [h]to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, [i]harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law

Heb 8: 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and forthe people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various [b]washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law (priesthood animal sacrifices) , having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Which reconciles with Paul's teachings...

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Not sure how anyone interprets this as the Ten Commandments ended at the Cross what defines sin and the whole reason Jesus took our death penalty for sins and became our High Priest so instead of sacrificing animals we can confess and repent directly to Jesus our High Priest whose blood is perfect for cleanings us of all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. All the Ten Commandments do is show us our sins Rom 3:20 Romans 7:7 and our need for Jesus, His mercy, grace and sanctification. Pro 28:13 Thankfully God writes His law in our hearts and minds and gives us the power to keep through love and faith. John 14:15-18 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12

Soyeong · Dec 30, 2023

Cameron143 said:

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so while we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, it nevertheless also falls under the New Covenant.

Psalms 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

If we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then we will share it, and if we share the view expressed in the above verses, then we will want to voluntarily come under it even if we weren't under it.

In 1 John 3:10, if someone does not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they are not born again. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.

We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

If you agree that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, then you should agree that we should obey it regardless of whether or not we need it to teach us what sin is. The New Covenant is superior to the Mosaic Covenant because it is based on a better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6), though it still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10). The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to teach us how to embody it, so there is no disagreement.

Soyeong · Dec 31, 2023

ThyKingdomComeSoon said:

Sorry if. my last post wasn't clear, I wasn't meaning to suggest that all of God's laws have that condition, but rather I was using laws that have conditions to demonstrate the point that there is nothing wrong with not following laws that don't have their conditions met.

In Acts 15:11, it makes it clear that the the heavy burden that no one could bear in Acts 15:10 is not the Mosaic Law, but a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey, and Romans 10:5-8 refers to that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim, so if they had been referring to the Mosaic Law as the heavy burden that no one could bear, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God.

In Acts 15:5, the men from Judea were opposed by a group of Pharisees from among the believers who argued that Gentiles should obey the Mosaic Law and become circumcised, but not in order to result in becoming saved. Again, the debate and the ruling was in regard to the means of salvation. In Acts 15:6-7, Peter made the case that Gentiles should hear and believe the Gospel. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is a central part of the Gospel message, which means means that Peter was arguing in favor of the group of Pharisees.

Furthermore, in Acts 15:8-9, Peter made the case that God had given Gentiles the Holy Spirit even as he did to them, making no difference between them, and purifying their hearts through faith. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Laws, so again Peter was arguing in favor of the Pharisees in Acts 15:5 and against the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. No one made the case before the Jerusalem Council that Gentiles shouldn't obey the Mosaic Law or become circumcised. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so s ruling against Gentiles obeying the Mosaic Law would have been a ruling that Gentiles shouldn't follow Jesus.

Soyeong · Dec 31, 2023

posthuman said:

That notably does not say that we don't need the Law of God if we are led by Spirit, but just the opposite, it says that that the Son condemned sin in the flesh that the the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us. Moreover, in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law. Instructions for how to do what is righteous are not made for the righteous who are living in accordance with them, but rather it is the unrighteous who need to be taught how to do what is righteous. Those who try use that verse to say that doing what is righteous is only for the unrighteous in order to justify their freedom to be unrighteous thereby become someone that God's law is for. It would be just as absurd to try to arguing that doing what is courageous is not for the courageous.

posthuman said:

In Proverbs 3:1, it is mentions the Torah, so you do.

Christ walked in obedience to the Torah and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so those who refuse to submit to the Torah should not consider themselves to be in Christ.

Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with a law that is not faith. So if you interpret every instance of "law" as referring to the Law of God without bothering to determine which law he was speaking about, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him and will end up interpreting a servant of God as speaking against obeying Him.

posthuman said:

That is not my position, so it is not something that I am building to.

posthuman said:

God's law is a gift from God, not a tax. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. While we should obey God's law because we love Him, God is sovereign, so we are under His law and are obligated to obey it.

posthuman said:

I'm an introvert, so I'm not big on introductions. I joined the forum because I enjoy discussing theology and important to do in order to attain and spread correct theology. In particular, I have an interest in discussing the role of Mosaic Law (which I think most Christians do not correctly understand), which includes the command to keep the Sabbath holy, so I have that in common with SDA's. We all think that our beliefs are correct otherwise we wouldn't continue to hold them, and we think that it is to our advantage to attain correct beliefs to the advantage of others to help them attain correct beliefs, which is why you are trying to convince me of the truth of your beliefs, so I don't have an agenda that is different from others at this forum who have an interest in discussing theology.

Cameron143 · Dec 31, 2023

Soyeong said:

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so while we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, it nevertheless also falls under the New Covenant.

Psalms 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

If we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then we will share it, and if we share the view expressed in the above verses, then we will want to voluntarily come under it even if we weren't under it.

In 1 John 3:10, if someone does not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they are not born again. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.

We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

If you agree that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, then you should agree that we should obey it regardless of whether or not we need it to teach us what sin is. The New Covenant is superior to the Mosaic Covenant because it is based on a better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6), though it still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10). The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to teach us how to embody it, so there is no disagreement.

If you earnestly believe you are to keep the Mosaic Law, why don't you stone sexual deviants?

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Dec 31, 2023

Soyeong said:

Sorry if. my last post wasn't clear, I wasn't meaning to suggest that all of God's laws have that condition, but rather I was using laws that have conditions to demonstrate the point that there is nothing wrong with not following laws that don't have their conditions met.

In Acts 15:11, it makes it clear that the the heavy burden that no one could bear in Acts 15:10 is not the Mosaic Law, but a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey, and Romans 10:5-8 refers to that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim, so if they had been referring to the Mosaic Law as the heavy burden that no one could bear, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God.

In Acts 15:5, the men from Judea were opposed by a group of Pharisees from among the believers who argued that Gentiles should obey the Mosaic Law and become circumcised, but not in order to result in becoming saved. Again, the debate and the ruling was in regard to the means of salvation. In Acts 15:6-7, Peter made the case that Gentiles should hear and believe the Gospel. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is a central part of the Gospel message, which means means that Peter was arguing in favor of the group of Pharisees.

Furthermore, in Acts 15:8-9, Peter made the case that God had given Gentiles the Holy Spirit even as he did to them, making no difference between them, and purifying their hearts through faith. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Laws, so again Peter was arguing in favor of the Pharisees in Acts 15:5 and against the men from Judea in Acts 15:1. No one made the case before the Jerusalem Council that Gentiles shouldn't obey the Mosaic Law or become circumcised. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so s ruling against Gentiles obeying the Mosaic Law would have been a ruling that Gentiles shouldn't follow Jesus.

wrong again sorry. they were speakings of the law of Moses. your comprehension of texts is flawed. you twist everything the wrong way.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

posthuman · Dec 31, 2023

Soyeong said:

where does the accusation that we who are not under the law use our freedom for unrighteousness come from?

but the very fact the apostle warns believers not to use their freedom for licentiousness means the believer in fact has that freedom

Soyeong said:

incorrect.

in Romans 10 The Spirit gives us the interpretation of this passage and it is about exactly the opposite of the Law; v. 5 refers to Moses and the Law, specifically including the decalogue, per chapter 7, explaining that it says "do" - - which in Galatians is explicitly why the Law including the decalogue is NOT of faith.

by CONTRAST The Spirit refers to the words of Deuteronomy 30 calling it the word of faith.
Paul has just spent 9 chapters explaining that no one can be justified or saved through the law, that it exists to bring condemnation, and that by BELIEVING in the work of God in Christ we are saved, despite our sin, by dying with Him in order to later be raised and fully redeemed.

Salvation is very definitely not about works, especially not tge works of the Law.

TMS · Dec 31, 2023

Soyeong said:

Do you believe the blood offerings and temple services should be obed today.

Are the ordinances that Moses wrote down to help Israel deal with sin still to be practiced today.

Heb 10:1-11 KJV 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

We have the real deal now so the laws of ordinance given to Israel are no longer needed.

TMS · Dec 31, 2023

posthuman said:

Keeping the laws (laws of ordinance, shadow laws, school master), that pointed to Jesus's life and sacrifice, like the blood of lambs and sin offerings is a lack of faith.
Because Jesus is my sacrifice and His blood covers me. I have faith in His death which means the laws of ordinances are no longer to be kept.
But faith without works is dead..
If I say I have faith in Jesus and practice sin, is that real faith?
You say the law is not of faith. How is keeping the 10 commandments not of faith if your motive is love.
Keeping the laws of Moses that Jesus nailed to the cross is a lack of faith regardless of motive. You lack faith in what is achieved on the cross.
How is not killing a lack of faith? How is not taking God's name in vain a lack of faith?

Rom 13:9-10
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Faith without works is dead.
So how is keeping the 10 commandments not of faith.
(When the motive is love, 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.)

The Commandments of God (according to scripture)

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