The Correct Path
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Don't recall saying that no conviction and or enlightening of the Holy Spirit was not required.......as you guys know (You and Wattie) that I believe that........the point was to show that the word of God cannot be discerned and followed without salvation first...... Without a doubt conviction and enlightenment must come in order to apply the word......!
Hey Wattie, having talked with me a few times and knowing what I believe.....you know that I would say conviction and enlightenment would be required for salvation......having said that...The point of the thread was more directed at what it would take to be able to understand and apply the word when it comes to bearing fruit/works and or understanding the word....one must be born again.....and first on the list would be faith........as in....
faith-->saves--->someone saved--->can discern the word and know the will of God-->and do the works that have been prepared before the casting down of the world.......
Works do not produce faith........
Again, obviously some one would have to be convicted and enlightened by the Spirit in order to believe and confess to salvation....!
faith-->saves--->someone saved--->can discern the word and know the will of God-->and do the works that have been prepared before the casting down of the world.......
Works do not produce faith........
Again, obviously some one would have to be convicted and enlightened by the Spirit in order to believe and confess to salvation....!
The point of the thread was not to name a step by step to biblical salvation as you obviously know by what I have posted that I believe that someone must be convicted and enlightened to be saved.....the point of the thread was to show what it takes to discern the word and will of God and actually bear fruit/works and that one must be born again in order to understand the word and will of God when it comes to bearing fruit and or doing the works..........
Faith has always come before works.....and faith is a GIFT FROM GOD........WORKS do not add to, facilitate, or get the free gift of FAITH.......
Faith which saves and makes it all possible....
Faith has always come before works.....and faith is a GIFT FROM GOD........WORKS do not add to, facilitate, or get the free gift of FAITH.......
Faith which saves and makes it all possible....
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1 Corinthians 2:10-16
10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[SUP]d[/SUP]
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[SUP]d[/SUP]
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
To claim natural man can understand the 'things of the Spirit' on a spiritual level..aweeee...... he/she may hear the word. understand it from a carnal level.. but not a Spiritual level.. that wont work.. the carnal mind is at war against God.. to claim the natural man can understand Spiritually the Word of God from his/her carnal mind.. awee... that is a man made gospel.. the children of the flesh. not the Children of the Spirit.. as in Isaac, the children of Promise.. what you have when that happens. is man pulling God down his /her level. then telling Him how He is suppose to act according to their carnal interpretations of the Scripture.. thus from this you have Christ divided into hundreds if not thousands of divisions, sects, denominations.. their 'fruit ye shall know'..
make up your mind what time frame you want to use.before death, old covenant,
after death, and jesus back in heaven. penticost.( jewish)acts 10 gentiles being saved. etc
you need to believe in a saviour. first.
yes when he was alive before death he said this.
when did the new covenant start. was that after he went back to heaven.
so why act 15. when was a gentile told to follow any part of the law of moses, and how can anyone follow any part of this law with out a temple of stone. (jewish)
what sinful state , you have yet to prove that any part of the law (that was give to moses,) was given to a gentile.
romans 5 . adam sin was fixed by jesus. and dont give me acts 2 (all jewish at pentecost.)
john 3.16.
after death, and jesus back in heaven. penticost.( jewish)acts 10 gentiles being saved. etc
you need to believe in a saviour. first.
yes when he was alive before death he said this.
when did the new covenant start. was that after he went back to heaven.
so why act 15. when was a gentile told to follow any part of the law of moses, and how can anyone follow any part of this law with out a temple of stone. (jewish)
what sinful state , you have yet to prove that any part of the law (that was give to moses,) was given to a gentile.
romans 5 . adam sin was fixed by jesus. and dont give me acts 2 (all jewish at pentecost.)
john 3.16.
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1 Cor 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he knowthem, because they are spiritually discerned."
--the verb "receiveth not" is present tense, middle deponent. The middle deponent shows they actively of their own freewill chose not to receive them. The present tense shows they keep on choosing to not receive those things.
--why do they refuse to receive those things? "for they are foolishness unto him" How would the natural man know things of the Spirit (as the inspired words received by the apostles) were foolish or wise unless they had some understanding of those inspired words? After they look at those inspired words through their secular lens and analyze them with the human philosophies they then determine them to be foolish and reject them
---" neither can he know them" Paul already said in 1 Cor 2:10,11 no one can only know the mind of God unless God reveals what is in His mind. So God chose spiritual men (inspired writers of the bible) and through His Spirit revealed words to those inspired men who wrote those inspired words down so the rest of us can read and understand them thereby know what is in the mind of God, Eph 3:3,4. Again, how can the natural man determine things of the spirit are foolishness unless he has some understanding of those things? Yet by considering them foolish and rejecting them, then the natural man cannot know the things of the spirit of God for he has rejected the only source of information from which one can know what is in the mind of God.
---"because they are spiritually discerned" Things of the spirit of God must be discerned/judged/scrutinized/investigated by the word of God, the scriptures must be examined,(Acts 17:11) to know the things of the spirit of God. Yet the natural man has rejected the word of God therefore has no spiritual discernment but simply views things from his own secular knowledge and philosophies while ridiculing spiritual things as God's word.
How/why would those in Acts 7:54 be angry and murder Stephen if they could not understand the sermon he preached?
IN post #22 you post "the point was to show that the word of God cannot be discerned and followed without salvation first."
So now you are saying one can be saved while not knowing the word of God/gospel?
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Does faith come by hearing the word of god, Rom 10:17 or is faith something God randomly gives to some and withholds from others?
The source of anything is GOD...faith is OF/FROM God, God GAVE FAITH without measure unto CHRIST, God deals to every man a MEASURE of FAITH, FAITH is a SPIRITUAL GIFT and the Corinthian text stands...man in his natural state cannot know and or spiritually discern the word because it is foolishness in his eyes...maybe that is why you are blind to it....it takes actually being saved to understand the meat of the word....you should chunk your works and water and actually take the faith of Christ and apply it...it will help you understand the word.....!
Amen, we are saved by our faith in the grace of God revealed in Jesus Christ. We are blessed by God in that while we were in sin, God loved us and revealed to us his love in Jesus Christ. Our faith in this revelation is a gift from God. And so we have no reason to boast, because even our capacity to have faith in Christ comes from the grace of God. To God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ be the glory forever. Amen.
So you're saying faith does not come by hearing Rom 10:17 but God just randomly gives faith to some while withholding it from others??
1)If so, this makes God morally culpable for those that are faithless.
Mt 8:26 "And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm."
If one can only have faith if God gives it to him, then why does Jesus criticize these disciples over their little faith when that was out of their control? Should not Jesus have criticized God for failing to give them sufficient faith?
2) man has been commanded to have belief. If man can only have faith if God gives it to him, then why command man to do something out of man's control? THe command itself implies that each man must choose within himself to believe or not, with belief being developed within the heart, Rom 10:9, not a gifr unconditionally randomly given to some and not others by God.
3) 1 Cor 12:9;13 faith that brings salation comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17 the faith in 1 Cor 12:9; 13 is a faith associated with performing miracles (remove mountains).
4)Rom 12:3 does not refer to the personal faith that saves which one develops in his heart upon hearing the word of God but refers to a various work/office given to every Christian. "Measure of faith" in v3 is called "office/function" in verse 4 and "different gifts" in verse 6 cf Eph 4:11.
1)If so, this makes God morally culpable for those that are faithless.
Mt 8:26 "And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm."
If one can only have faith if God gives it to him, then why does Jesus criticize these disciples over their little faith when that was out of their control? Should not Jesus have criticized God for failing to give them sufficient faith?
2) man has been commanded to have belief. If man can only have faith if God gives it to him, then why command man to do something out of man's control? THe command itself implies that each man must choose within himself to believe or not, with belief being developed within the heart, Rom 10:9, not a gifr unconditionally randomly given to some and not others by God.
3) 1 Cor 12:9;13 faith that brings salation comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17 the faith in 1 Cor 12:9; 13 is a faith associated with performing miracles (remove mountains).
4)Rom 12:3 does not refer to the personal faith that saves which one develops in his heart upon hearing the word of God but refers to a various work/office given to every Christian. "Measure of faith" in v3 is called "office/function" in verse 4 and "different gifts" in verse 6 cf Eph 4:11.
I didn't say any such thing....it seems you and a few like you on here like to twist what people say and then try to prove your false gospel......When you can acknowledge what is said without twisting it them I might engage you....until then your continual twist of the word of God and what the people post on this site (including myself) proves your inability to actually see clearly.....The following quote is biblical and right.....your attempted twist does not alleviate the truth of what I posted.....!
The source of anything is GOD...faith is OF/FROM God, God GAVE FAITH without measure unto CHRIST, God deals to every man a MEASURE of FAITH, FAITH is a SPIRITUAL GIFT and the Corinthian text stands...man in his natural state cannot know and or spiritually discern the word because it is foolishness in his eyes...
The source of anything is GOD...faith is OF/FROM God, God GAVE FAITH without measure unto CHRIST, God deals to every man a MEASURE of FAITH, FAITH is a SPIRITUAL GIFT and the Corinthian text stands...man in his natural state cannot know and or spiritually discern the word because it is foolishness in his eyes...
Yeah I wasn't posting to disagree at all.. just tryin to clarify something in my head. 
Conviction of the need for salvation comes from God first.. then the response.
Conviction of the need for salvation comes from God first.. then the response.
conviction-
1)an instance of formally being found guilty of a criminal offence in court.
2)a firmly held belief or opinion.
conviction of sin, or conviction to believe in.
how can you be convicted to believe in jesus christ as a saviour, (act 10)
you have free will to believe.
My question is: Can someone be converted without first being convicted of their need for salvation?
I don't think someone can.. but I do know someone is saved by grace thru faith in Christ. So does that faith need to be exercised out of conviction first?
I guess someone believing without conviction is pretty much false conversion?
Penny for your thoughts..
Or two cents..fe.John 3