The cultic origins of Annihilationism

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Mar 28, 2016
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#81
The saying that "the book of Revelation is prophetic and not to be taken literally" is an on-going false teaching. The correct way to read the book of Revelation is "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense." One of the major errors made those who read Revelation, is interpreting what is mean to be literal as symbolic, which distorts the meaning.

I don't find those kind of instructions in the scriptures that would we take the spiritual sense and try nd make it literal.

Where do you find those kind of instructions? That apposes on how he instructs us as to how we can hear Him and not men who walk by sight .

In order to establish the "law of faith" without parable Christ spoke not to the multitude Those who would receive the spiritual understanding and those from without . Natural man that walks after the things seen. Hiding the unseen spiritual understand from those who walk by sight. The language of Revelation is not only inspired but is also signified, using that seen, the temporal to define that not seen, the law of faith, the eternal not seen .

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

Matthew 13:34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

A good example in found in chapter nine all the metaphors simply point to the father of lies who has no form it begins like that of Chapter 20 using a literal star as that seen the temp[oral to represent Christ the bright and morning star and using a literal key as that seen the temporal to represent the eternal gospel and a bottomless pit to describe the binding power of the gospel .Satan a lying spirit remains without DNA. We do not wrestles against DNA.

Define the underlined words uses your technique( "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense)

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions .And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Revelation 9
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#82
You are simply presenting references from the Old Testament (which speaks about Sheol, where the dead remain silent).

If the dead "know nothing then Jesus would not have given us the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, who were very much alive in Hades AFTER they died.
Without parables like that one Christ spoke not . Dead men do not thirst for the water of the word their tongues are gone... worm food. Sounds more like a plot for Zombies, Hollywood style.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Eccl 9

The dead know nothing their memories of the things here under the son have perished they will not be remembered or ever to come to mind ever more . If they have no memory of the word of God how will God punish them so they can do the work of suffering ?

God is a God of mercy .He is not merciless. He does not have mercy on some and make the other pay their own debt.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth "as it was": and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James 2

Dead people cannot work to suffer a body needs a spirit to perform that . With what will they suffer with that has not gone up in smoke seeing their spirit have returned ?

When the Son of man of his own volition gave up His Spirit, it did not remain on his corrupted body of death . That's a Catholic teaching. They even dig up the bones of former Popes a dress them up and execute Judgement and then pass around the forgiven bones as idols, making them into a objects of worship.

The scriptures define hell as a living work .Living sacrifice .
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#83
It has been said before and I will post it here. " The greatest thing one can know is they don't know anything". In order to teach and remain teachable we must not be clogged by what is perceived in order to be filled by what is not perceived; Jesus Christ.

It in all fairness this is a difficult subject Latour.
True, but understanding is possible if we sacrifice our sacred cow doctrines that don't add up.

The house of God will be judged first. Some will receive honour...and some will be dishonoured. The outer darkness is for those who have been "spit out of the mouth" of Christ or have been rejected as the 5 foolish virgins.

But we are a time where sound doctrine sounds bizarre and lies sound right.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#84
True, but understanding is possible if we sacrifice our sacred cow doctrines that don't add up.

The house of God will be judged first. Some will receive honour...and some will be dishonoured. The outer darkness is for those who have been "spit out of the mouth" of Christ or have been rejected as the 5 foolish virgins.

But we are a time where sound doctrine sounds bizarre and lies sound right.
Can I just draw your attention to 1Pet 4v17 For the time is[come] that judgement must begin at the house of God.....that would imply it had already started way back at the time of writing this verse. From what I see in christianity everybody is waiting for 'future judgement....can that be right ? Looks to me that some are missing their opportunity and will face final condemnation instead.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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#85
This sounds silly to me, like nazis vs communists. Both equally bad!
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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#86
Can I just draw your attention to 1Pet 4v17 For the time is[come] that judgement must begin at the house of God.....that would imply it had already started way back at the time of writing this verse. From what I see in christianity everybody is waiting for 'future judgement....can that be right ? Looks to me that some are missing their opportunity and will face final condemnation instead.
You are so right beta, the church of Christ is being judged daily with the trials of life and attacks from evil spirits. This is the only judgment the believers will face.

Rom. 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

If we are seeking the way of the spirit, the is no condemnation now or ever. God said He will not remember our sins at all.

 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#87
What also hasn't been mentioned is when death first enters the picture.

If you eat from this tree you shall surely... die. And what is missing? Adam had never died, never seen death, and now his sin became death for him. But there is no mention of any eternal torment for poor Adam. You'd think God might have mentioned this.
I may have mentioned this, but it would have been in one of the two other threads that were the inspiration for N to create this thread :)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#88
It has been said before and I will post it here. " The greatest thing one can know is they don't know anything". In order to teach and remain teachable we must not be clogged by what is perceived in order to be filled by what is not perceived; Jesus Christ.

It in all fairness this is a difficult subject Latour.
Very true. But one scarcely knows what to do with someone who is not willing to discuss and who only immediately and quickly dismisses valid points as ridiculous while simultaneously claiming they have all truth on a matter. That just makes a difficult subject more difficult to discuss for those who want to delve into a matter.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#89
S
First Vines states in regards to the word "a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." Just so everyone is clear that means dead as in being killed.
To "destroy utterly" does not mean annihilation. I means complete loss of well being, ruination. The definition of the word states right in there that they do not imply annihilation or extinction in any use of the word. It's an eternal, conscious existence in complete loss of well being in separation from God. No one who comes into this world ever ceases to exist. There is either eternal life, which is well being and joy in the presence of God in the kingdom of God, or there is the state of death, which is not annihilation or non-existence, but eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. That's what the combined scriptures teach. Consider the following:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The word "aionios" is an adjective derived from "aion" which can mean "a cycle of time, an age or eternal." The word is used to describe the final state for both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must carry the same meaning. Since we know that eternal life is on-conscious existence, then eternal punishment must also be on-going conscious existence. You can't have the word "aionios" mean never ending for life and non-existence for the other.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#90
Without parables like that one Christ spoke not . Dead men do not thirst for the water of the word their tongues are gone... worm food. Sounds more like a plot for Zombies, Hollywood style.
Quoting the Old Testament exclusively will not cut it, when we have the teachings of Christ regarding salvation and damnation. But that's what you have done. You failed to present any NT quotations. And calling Christ's revelation of the afterlife a parable is another dodge meant to avoid the actual significance of what is revealed.

Parables are EARTHLY stories with heavenly meanings. But the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is set in HADES, not on earth. Furthermore, parables are meant to ILLUSTRATE spiritual truths.

So at the very least, this narrative is illustrating one thing very clearly -- THE DEAD ARE VERY MUCH ALIVE AFTER DEATH.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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#91
The saying that "the book of Revelation is prophetic and not to be taken literally" is an on-going false teaching. The correct way to read the book of Revelation is "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense." One of the major errors made those who read Revelation, is interpreting what is mean to be literal as symbolic, which distorts the meaning.



The verse above is a warning for the great tribulation saints who will be present on earth during the beasts reign and the time of his mark. They will be killed because they will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. Their faith during that time will cost them their physical life. But by resisting even at the threat of death, the will be victorious over the beast. This is why it says, "blessed are those who die in the Lord form now on." The great tribulation saints are first introduced in Rev.7:9-17 and also in Rev.20:4-6, where John sees them beheaded and then resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.



Those who don't repent and believe in Christ is why the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth in the first place, also known as the day of the Lord. If they die without receiving Christ and repenting, then they will die in their sins and will first go to Hades and then after the millennial period they will be judged at the great white throne and then thrown into the lake of fire.

The great tribulation saints mentioned above, will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and that because they will have not believed prior to the church being gathered. If they had believed, then they would have been gathered as belonging to the church. But they become believers after the church is gathered and during the time of God's wrath. The majority of them will die because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and will resist the beast, his image and his mark. But by doing so, the will gain the victory over the beast and have eternal life.

I hope that this is beneficial to you.
The most literal translation of Revelation is that it was pointing to the temple being destroyed in 70 AD. That’s what would have had meaning to the readers of the time and the ideas of, “I’m coming very soon...”

Yet 2000 years ago we still think it’s written to us about events that have not happened. And we create doctrines out of metaphorical meanings.

Revelation is about the supremacy of Christ. It’s the Revelation of Him. It’s not the Revelation of Hell, the beast, the Antichrist or any other. Creating doctrine from Revelation and using it as a lens to interpret other Scripture is probably not the best idea.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#92
The saying that "the book of Revelation is prophetic and not to be taken literally" is an on-going false teaching. The correct way to read the book of Revelation is "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense." One of the major errors made those who read Revelation, is interpreting what is mean to be literal as symbolic, which distorts the meaning.

I don't find those kind of instructions in the scriptures that would we take the spiritual sense and try nd make it literal.

Where do you find those kind of instructions? That apposes on how he instructs us as to how we can hear Him and not men who walk by sight .
It is common sense to read something in the literal sense unless it is obvious that the literal sense does not make any sense. For example:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and crying out in the pain and agony of giving birth.

Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The one who begins to read the above scriptures should immediately realize that the information regarding the sun, moon and stars are symbolic representing a literal meaning. The same for the dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven horns. In the book Genesis we are given the answer regarding the symbolism of the sun, moon and stars. And later in the book of Revelation we are given the identity behind the symbolism of the dragon, his heads and his ten and seven horns.

The book of Revelation should be read in the plain literal sense unless it doesn't make good literal sense.

In order to establish the "law of faith" without parable Christ spoke not to the multitude Those who would receive the spiritual understanding and those from without . Natural man that walks after the things seen. Hiding the unseen spiritual understand from those who walk by sight. The language of Revelation is not only inspired but is also signified, using that seen, the temporal to define that not seen, the law of faith, the eternal not seen .
Garee, you continue to quote regarding Christ speaking in parables and I keep telling you that when the Lord said this, He was speaking to that generation of Israel which was in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy, which is as follows:

"Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Therefore, the parables were directed at that generation of Israel and not to the church. As you can see, Jesus said, "the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you (believers), but not to them (that generation of Israel). And the reason for His speaking to them in parables is as follows:

"This is why I speak to them in parables:
‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.'
In them (that generation of Israel) the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:
"you will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people's (that generation of Israel) heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might hear with their ears, understand with their
hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

So please garee, stop using that example to infer that Jesus spoke to us in parables and therefore must interpret the book of Revelation as being spiritual. All that you are doing is misapplying scripture.


Define the underlined words uses your technique( "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense)


And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions .And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Revelation 9

I tell you right away, that this 5th trumpet will be a literal event for the sole purpose of tormenting the inhabitants of the earth.

star
In his vision, John sees a star fall to the earth. Since we know that if a literal star was to fall to the earth or come near it, the earth would be destroyed and there would be no need to go through the rest of Revelation. The star is also given a "key" and referred to as "he," which would infer this star is symbolic representing an individual, most likely a heavenly being, angel. In support of this, Rev.12:4 symbolically uses "stars" as representing Satan's angels. The key that he is given could be a material or spiritual key. Ether way, it opens the shaft to the Abyss which is on the earth.

Abyss (bottomless pit)
The Abussos i.e. Abyss, is a literal place under the earth. It is referred to in Luke 8:31 where those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not send them into. And it is also mentioned in Rev.20:1-3 where after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and when that angel from heaven seizes Satan and binds him in the Abyss during Christ's literal thousand year reign.

Smoke out of the pit/Giant furnace
When that star/angel opens the Abyss smoke billows out of it like a furnace and that because, like Hades, the Abyss is hot from the heat generated from the earths inner activities and is therefore literal smoke which will escape out once the shaft to the Abyss is opened.

Locusts/Scorpions
Once the Abyss is opened, the smoke billows out and locusts come through the smoke and land upon the earth. The fact that these locusts are coming up out of the Abyss and that they have crowns like gold, hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, breastplates like iron, faces resembling human faces, tails and stings like scorpions and that they have a king over them which is the angel of the Abyss, should alert the reader that these are not your garden variety locusts, but are demonic beings with those descriptions. The fact that they told not to harm the grass, plants , tree or any green thing, which is what a literal locust would do, would demonstrate that they are also intelligent beings. They will have tails and stingers like scorpions and will torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months.

Seal of God on their Foreheads
Back in Rev.7:1-8, we are introduced to a group with the literal number of 144,000, who come out from the twelve tribes of Israel who unlike unbelieving Israel, will recognize Christ as their Messiah and are said to be sealed in their foreheads with the seal of God. This seal has nothing to do with the mark that God put on Cain, nor is it referring to the sealing of individual believers in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Whether visible or invisible, this will be a specific, literal seal that will be placed on the foreheads of this group of 144,000, twelve thousand from each tribe, minus Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh and will be recognized by those demonic locusts making this group exempt from this plague of wrath.

Everything else mentioned in the description of these demonic locust, the Abyss, the key (whether material or spiritual) the smoke of the Abyss, the grass, trees plants and the descriptions of locusts and their purpose are to be interpreted in the literal sense. To apply a spiritual or allegorical meaning would be to force it and thereby distort the meaning of the context.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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#93
Dead people in Hell is what Jesus is saying. Not just dead people.
No He’s talking about Gehenna a place where trash and refuse was burned up completely. The word unending/unquenching is about a duration. Not about eternal torment. The idea of unquenching fire is that it lasts until it’s purpose is complete.

I’m writing this on my phone, but later I’ll be at my computer where I can type more. Let me know if you’d like me to show you Scriptures where this is the case.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#94
So at the very least, this narrative is illustrating one thing very clearly -- THE DEAD ARE VERY MUCH ALIVE AFTER DEATH.
Correct. After death, and before the judgement, the parable does seem to suggest an awareness after death.

Another person brought up OT verses that seem to suggest nonawareness after death.

Maybe it is not the same death being spoken of in all the verses. There are two different deaths a man can die.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#95
Maybe it is not the same death being spoken of in all the verses. There are two different deaths a man can die.
No, that is not the case. The OT speaks of Sheol but the revelation of the afterlife is limited, since Sheol/Hades was to be a holding place for the righteous dead until the resurrection of Christ.

So this is another example of progressive revelation. Until Christ taught about the afterlife, about salvation and damnation, about Hell (Gehenna) being created for the Devil and his angels, God gave us only a limited understanding of the afterlife in the OT.

But the appearance of dead Samuel speaking to Saul confirms that the souls and spirits of the OT saints were very much alive in Sheol/Hades, though silent (thus said to be "sleeping").

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. (1 Sam 28:15)

"To bring me up" is a reference to Sheol -- which is in "the heart of the earth" or "the lower parts of the earth". So Samuel was not sleeping in his grave, but his soul and spirit were quietly resting in Sheol. He was "disquieted" or disturbed when God allowed him to appear to Saul and communicate with him.Sheol
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#96
The most literal translation of Revelation is that it was pointing to the temple being destroyed in 70 AD. That’s what would have had meaning to the readers of the time and the ideas of, “I’m coming very soon...”
Revelation does not say anything at all about the destruction of the temple. The temple that is mentioned in Rev.11 is in reference to the coming future temple that the antichrist will make possible for Israel to build and where that abomination will be set up and the same temple that Paul said that the man of lawlessness would stand in proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thes.2:4

Regarding "I’m coming very soon" this infers imminency, for the same thing was said by the OT prophets regarding the same time period, the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, of which Revelation is a detailed account of and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, consider the following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isaiah 13:6-8 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp; every man’s heart will melt. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

Isaiah 13:9-13 See, the day of the Lord is coming -a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Joel 1:15 - Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:1-2 - Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on My holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand--A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness

Zephaniah 1:14-18 - The great day of the Lord is near - near and coming quickly.

The prophets above were all speaking about the same time period, the day of the Lord, describing the same events of the time of God's wrath, which is what the majority of the book of Revelation is giving a detailed account of via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, if 3000 to 3500 years ago the prophets were saying "the day of the Lord is near" and it still hasn't happened, then the phrase is one of imminency, i.e. on the horizon, pending, about to happen, looming. The time of God's wrath is near and will be fulfilled when it finally happens. It is a great error to assign a time period to "is near" and applying it the destruction of the temple.

When Jesus returns to end the age, Matt.24:30 and Rev.1:7, state that "every eye will see Him (the Lord) even those who pierced Him and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him." Christ's physical and visual return will be literal and that never took place with the destruction of the temple. The scriptures were also not speaking allegorically so that the Roman soldiers are representing Jesus return when they destroyed the temple. These are preterist and amillennialist beliefs and are false.

Yet 2000 years ago we still think it’s written to us about events that have not happened. And we create doctrines out of metaphorical meanings.
It is about this generation. in Daniel 12:4 regarding the last days, the angel told Daniel that "people would roam back and form and knowledge will be increased." Well, knowledge has been increased and continues to increase exponentially. We are told that the false prophet will

"cause all great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a mark in right hand or the forehead. And unless anyone receive the mark they would not be able to buy or sell."

As of 2015 companies in Sweden began to offer their employees to receive an RFID chip implant underneath the skin of the hand, with one of its purposes being to make purchases. Now, that technology has begun in the united states. The very fact that this technology even exists is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word. We are that generation that is seeing the stage beings set for the technology for the mark of the beast. This alone kills the idea that the end time events were fulfilled 2000 years again with the destruction of the temple.

I could go on an one with proof starting with Israel which was a desolate waste land for hundreds of years. And just as God said, He has gathered His people Israel from all of the countries where they were scattered and brought them back to their own land. Now the area is a flourishing Eden just as scripture states that it would be (Ezk.36:24-38). Israel just celebrated her 70th year anniversary as a nation and Jerusalem has just been recognized as the capital of Israel. So yes, the book of Revelation from chapter 4 onward is about the future.

Revelation is about the supremacy of Christ. It’s the Revelation of Him. It’s not the Revelation of Hell, the beast, the Antichrist or any other. Creating doctrine from Revelation and using it as a lens to interpret other Scripture is probably not the best idea.[
The book of Revelation is not about the revealing of Christ, but the revelation is about revealing what the events that are going to take place, i.e. God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as can be deduced from the very first verse:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the revelation is regarding the events that will take place during the time of God's wrath, which is described from Revelation 6 thru 18.

My advise to you Cee, is to do your own studies and stop adopting and repeating the false teachings that are out there.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#97
Correct. After death, and before the judgement, the parable does seem to suggest an awareness after death.

Another person brought up OT verses that seem to suggest nonawareness after death.

Maybe it is not the same death being spoken of in all the verses. There are two different deaths a man can die.
There is no awareness of any kind in death.

The difference in the two deaths is that one is temporary, the second will be permanent.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#98
No He’s talking about Gehenna a place where trash and refuse was burned up completely.
The valley of Hinnom simply resembled eternal Hell (Gehenna). But Hell is the Lake of Fire. Please note:

MARK 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell [GEHENNA] fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#99
No He’s talking about Gehenna a place where trash and refuse was burned up completely. The word unending/unquenching is about a duration. Not about eternal torment. The idea of unquenching fire is that it lasts until it’s purpose is complete.

Cee, that duration and state of being, would be eternal, on-going, never ending in separation from God in the lake of fire. Death, like life, is a state of conscious existence, not non-existence. This can be garnered from the rich man and Lazarus, that is, if you don't get rid of the proof by making it a parable.

I’m writing this on my phone, but later I’ll be at my computer where I can type more. Let me know if you’d like me to show you Scriptures where this is the case.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Correct. After death, and before the judgement, the parable does seem to suggest an awareness after death.

Another person brought up OT verses that seem to suggest nonawareness after death.

Maybe it is not the same death being spoken of in all the verses. There are two different deaths a man can die.
After the first death, people are resurrected for the judgement at the end of this age. Of course there is awareness at that time, but it does not necessarily follow from that, that awareness was ever present from the moment of the first death to the resurrection.