The Days of the Lord, The comings of Christ, The Returning's of Jesus, The Advents, The Descending's of our Lord, ever heard of them?

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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The Brightness of His coming destroys the anti christ, but then the anti christ has to be around after that?
No. Verse 8 is covering two separate aspects: the first (Pt A) is covering the man of sin's ARRIVAL at the START of the 7-yrs, the second part of the verse (Pt B) is speaking of the END of the 7-yrs and his destruction.

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume [future tense (not at the same moment as Pt A)] with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming"



2Th1-2 [overall context] is covering [a NUMBER of] aspects of ALL SEVEN YEARS (of the future trib) and the "man of sin" (and ALL he will DO over those 7 yrs).

Example:

--BEGINNING [2Th2:7b-8a; 2Th2:9 his "ARRIVAL"]

--MIDDLE [2Th2:4]

--END [2Th2:8b (your reference)]


[just like Dan9:27's BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END]
 
R

Rasputin_OZ

Guest
o guess there are false teachers now so no different
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
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o guess there are false teachers now so no different
Oh, it'll be different... in this way:

"And because of this, God will send to them a working of delusion, for them to believe what is false [/the 'pseudei'],"

He's not doing this presently, during "this present age [singular]"
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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1Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. Because as Children of the Light, you have read and studied the word, and the Word tell you exactly when He is due to come back.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. We the ones with wisdom and knowledge know that the Lord is going to TOTALLY take by surprise, those who don't have and wisdom and knowledge.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. All us with reading skills, right away see the change in "WHO". We have transitioned to "they", So the NOT "breathren" shall be saying "Peace and safety" and pretty much while they are saying and living it WHAM, sudden destruction and the "BIRTH OF A NEW AGE" is RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Back to US now, we are not in ignorance like the heathen, or the lukewarm, or the deceived, or the pure love to be evil, hate God, we have been illuminated with the TRUTH. THIS day is EXPECTED, we have been watching for it through all the deception going on in the world around us.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Just reassuring us we are good to go. We know all we have to do is remind God of His promises. In the name of Jesus we have the power over all evil.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. Stay awake to what is going on all around you, don't get all complacent in world matters or spiritual matters. This is no time to party.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. They have no knowledge, no truth, they only know darkness and in their stupor they stumble around.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. Here is some gospel armor we are being told to put on. Have confidence in our Lord to keep you safe, even when danger is all around you. That is what the Word gives us.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, It is through our belief in the Risen Christ we are saved. God is not mad at us. He loves us, He will protect us. He made sure He gave us examples of how a beast with teeth to rip and tear us apart wont so much as touch us. There can be fire made as hot as it can all around you and you will walk away without even so much as the smell of smoke. HE'S GOT THIS. This is our FATHER who loves us. He is proving our faith in Him to Satan. Remember Job? If only he would have called on God so much sooner.

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. He paid a price for us. We belong to Him and His love and protection is there for whomsoever will.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. Help each other, learn from one another

12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; Let the Word of God teach you and correct you.

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5083 to watch over, to guard. (Preserved)

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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(Part I)

Romans 5:9 - Does you see this as God can not control His Wrath and where it goes and who it touches, therefore, He must take you?
It's not a matter of God not being able to control His wrath and where and who it touches. As Jesus said, God's wrath is going to come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. And so He wants believers to watch and be ready, which means to continue in faith, keeping ourselves from the world and watching for that blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He is going to gather us first because the results of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will result in the deaths of the majority of the earths population and the dismantling of all human government. It is going to be the worst time in the history of the world, which is why He is going to remove us first. I would suggest that you do an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

1 Thess 1:10 - Does this mean that we WEREN'T given power over all evil through the name of Jesus Christ?
The above means exactly what it says, that Jesus is going to rescue us from God's coming wrath by removing us from the earth so that we are not exposed to those plagues of wrath. There will no where to hide on the earth during that time. In fact, as I told you before, the church is not even mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath, which is from chapter 6 through 18 of the book of Revelation.

1 Thess 5:9 - Does this mean that putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet wouldn't be effective against Satan?
In the scripture above, Paul is making a distinction between the faithful who belong to the day and the unfaithful who belong to the night. Believers do not belong to the night so that the Lord's appearing like a thief in the night will not take us by surprise, which is followed by the time of sudden destruction that is coming upon the whole world. And the way in which it will not take us by surprise is because we will be ready and watching for the Lord's appearing and will be gathered to Him prior to the time of sudden destruction just as Paul described in 1 Thess.4:16

Rev 3:10 - Does this mean that you don't believe that God is capable of "keeping you safe" in anyway other than to take you away?
No, it does not mean that God is not capable of keeping us safe. However, His coming to remove us from the earth is the way in which He is going to keep us safe. Rev.3:10 says that He will keep believers "out of" (ek) the time of trial/wrath, not through it or during, but that He will keep us "out of" that time of wrath. To be kept "out of" means that we will not even be exposed to it.

Did not the blood on the doorposts "keep" the plague of the 1st born dying from affecting Gods Children at the very time it was killing the children in Egypt.
This is like the apologetic that people use regarding how God protected Noah. God did not intend to remove Israel from the earth, but to protect them during those plagues on Egypt, because they were to remain on the earth. The coming wrath of God will make that look like tea time in comparison. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, a fourth and a third respectively, this would equal well over half of the earths population killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor of the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. This scenario is supported by when Jesus said, "If those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved." That is, no one would be left alive on the earth. What the scripture is saying is that, if the time was allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied seven years, no one would be left alive on the earth.

You do not believe we are presently in the 5th seal?
I'll answer that with a question: Have you seen anyone make a seven year covenant with Israel yet allowing them to build their temple? Since the answer is "No," then we have not yet seen the first seal opened and therefore, we could not presently be in the 5th seal which takes place after the first, second, third and fourth seals. They take place in the sequential order that they are listed in Revelation.

1st Seal = Rider on the white horse - the revealing of the antichrist
2nd Seal = Rider on the red horse - Takes peace from the earth so that mankind kills each other
3rd Seal = Rider on the black horse - world-wide famine
4th Seal = Death and Hades given power to kill a fourth of the earth by sword, famine, disease and wild beasts of the earth
5the Seal = Saints under the alter revealed, no direct fatalities are associated with this seal
6th Seal = Great earthquake, sun darkened, moon turned to the color of blood, heaven opened so that the inhabitants can see God sitting on His throne. The announcement that the great day of their wrath has come, which includes the previous seals and the trumpets and bowls yet to come.
7th Seal = About a half our of silence in heaven, seven angels are given their trumpets, prays of the saints and incense go up before God.

1st Trumpet = A third of the earth and trees burned up (how many fatalities result?).
2nd Trumpet = A third of the creatures in the sea die and a third of the ships over all the earth are destroyed. How many people on those ships? How many killed in the cities that sit on every shore of that body of water from the gigantic Tsunami's that will be generated?
3rd Trumpet = A third of the rivers and fresh waters are contaminated with many people dying from drinking the waters. How many is many?
4th Trumpet = A third of the sun, moon and stars are darkened by a third, so that the earth will be missing a third of its light both day and night. No fatalities are listed with this trumpet
5th Trumpet/first woe = Demonic beings resembling locusts are released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants with stings like that of a scorpion for five months. No fatalities here, but only torment from the stings and horror of their appearance.
6th Trumpet/Second woe = A third of the inhabitants of the earth are killed by four fallen angels and their demonic army of 200 million via the fire, smoke and sulfur that proceeds from their mouths.
7th Trumpet/Third woe = Satan and his angels cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. "But woe (third woe) to the earth and the sea, for the devil has gone to you and is filled with anger.

Are you getting the gist of this? There is no where that the church can stay safe during this time. I will let you read the results of the bowl judgments for yourself. By the way, not to brag or anything, but everything that I listed above is from memory. My point being that I am well versed in Revelation and end-time events. My purpose it to point out to you that the gathering of the church will take place before all of those events of wrath take place. For they are not Satan's wrath, but God's wrath.

(Continued)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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(part II)

Yes you have told me that you BELIEVE the Lord returns 2 more times, yet still not given scripture that can not be perfectly placed within the context of JUST a 2nd Advent, a coming 1 more time, completely doing away with pre trib church rap,
You're still not listening. No, I did not tell you that the Lord "returns" 2 more times. What I said is that, the Lord's coming to gather His church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. When the Lord appears to gather the church, He will not be returning to the earth, but meeting the entire church in the air and taking them back to heaven to those places that He went to prepare for us. Please pay attention to what I post and quote me correctly!

Regarding the second part of your sentence, did I not give you the information regarding God's wrath and how we are not appointed to suffer it, as well Jesus promise to keep us out of that time of wrath? Why do you continue to say that I have not provided the scripture for this? Understand this, you are not going to find any scripture which comes right out and says "The dead in Christ will rise first. And then we who are still alive will be caught up with them. And I will come and gather you prior to my wrath." You're not going to find that! It is deduced from the accumulation of all the scripture regarding this issue.

The gathering of the church = Jesus appears and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet will say "come up here." At that time the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which remain and are still alive will be changed and caught up with them. This must take place prior to the on-set of God's wrath (see the results of the seals and trumpets listed above).

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Jesus returning to the earth visually and physically to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. This event takes place after God's wrath.

1 Thess 4:13 - 17 is clearly describing as Jesus died and rose, so those also WHO HAVE DIED, will He bring back, nothing about the church here.
You have a lot of studying to do. I Thess.4:13-17 has to do with Jesus promise to descend to the atmosphere and resurrect the entire church, dead and living which has yet to be fulfilled. Those living who will be changed and caught up are the living church. This event is or should be the blessed hope of every believer.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. "

As you can clearly see, it is the "dead in Christ" who rise first. That would be referring to those who have died belonging to the church. Then it states that "we (living believers) who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

So, when the Lord appears to gather His church, those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church until the time of the resurrection, their bodies will be reanimated immortal and glorified. Then immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet those who will have just previously been resurrected. At this point the entire church from beginning to end will meet the Lord in the air, where He according to His promise, He will take us back to the Father's house to those places that he went to prepare for us. Those left on the earth will be all who did not believe and those not ready and watching, which will include Israel, that great number of Gentiles who will become believers in Christ after the event and the inhabitants who rejected Christ, the unfaithful.


Also this is happening with the TRUMP OF GOD. When is it the Trumps are sounding? Or now are we to add an extra trump to?
The Trump of God, or last trumpet, is synonymous with the voice which John hears which sound like a trumpet mentioned in Rev.1:10 and 4:1 and is a prophetic allusion to 1 Thess.4:16, when the church is caught up.

You keep insisting the only way to be kept from the wrath of God is to be taken away even though we are told to suit up for battle and our knowledge and faith will protect or "keep" us from harm and that power is given to us to USE against Satan.
The battle that we are to suit up for are the whiles of the devil and his schemes. We are not to suit up for battle during the time of God's wrath, because it will be God's wrath. All that Satan, the beast and the false prophet will do, is apart of God's wrath. For example, the mark of the beast will cause people to make a definite decision between God and Satan. Since without the beasts mark no one will be able to buy or sell, then it will come down to each individual making their choice for God by not receiving it, opposed to those who love their lives more and will attempt to save it by receiving it. This is all apart of God's time of wrath.

And I 100% do have the church going through the entire time Satan is here.
Then by this belief that the church is going through the entire time of God's wrath (not Satan's) it shows that you do not truly do not believe that Jesus took upon Himself the wrath that all believers deserve, because you have us go through what Jesus already satisfied.

(Continued)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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(Part III)

Because I have read the book and there is a war going on for our eternal souls and the BIG BATTLE will be when Satan is here doing his thing and it makes NO sense for God to make sure we put on the full gospel armor to WITHSTAND THE FIERY DARTS OF SATAN if He is just going to FLY US away and leave the battle up to a bunch of people who don't love or care about Him to TEACH THEM A LESSON. How is that going to accomplish GOD saving every last soul He has so long been suffering for?
This war has been going on from the beginning of the fall. God's wrath which is coming is unprecedented. As Jesus said, "It will be a time of tribulation unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

Revelation 19 Yes but you conviently skipped over the verse right before it that states
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: FOR HE HATH JUDGED THE GREAT WHORE, WHICH DID CORRUPT THE EARTH WITH HER FORNICATION, AHD HATH AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS SERVANTS at her hand.
How is it possible that you missed this part? Do you just read Revelation like it is written in chronological order? 19:3... And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
I did not conveniently miss it as you assumed. This rejoicing of Rev.19:1-5 is in regards to God's destructive judgment on Babylon the great (Rome and her false religious system). The saints that are mentioned is referring to those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17 which I have told you about. You need to keep in mind that the church is no where mentioned from chapter 4 thru 18. The next time that the church is referred to is as the bride found in Rev.19:6-8. The next time the actual word church is used is found in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative and in the epilog.

REV 17 Will receive power as kings for ONE HOUR, THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION?
The ten horns/kings will receive authority as kings after only being with the beast for one hour, not that they will be kings for only one hour. You can't do much in one hour but go to lunch. These kings which are represented by the ten horns of the red dragon represent those ten kings who will be given authority as kings along with the beast, who will give him their power and authority.

and yes, Jesus is returning to earth, BUT this is THE DAY of Vengeance, the 2nd coming, the 2nd advent, (He has come once before, only once)
The day of vengeance of our God, represents the entire seven years and especially the last 3 1/2 years which Jesus refers to as "the great tribulation." It is called that because it is when the antichrist/beast breaks his seven year covenant, causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease, the abomination is set up in the holy place and when the man of lawlessness, as Paul calls him, will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped. The great tribulation is also the time when the beast will be given power over the great tribulation saints to make war and conquer them during that last 42 months, which is that last 3 1/2 years.

The fiery furnace, the Lions Den, Passover, the Red Sea, Noah's Flood, No matter how big or how small, a big group or just one, we walk by faith and we pass through, and when God wants we are "kept" from all harm that would come against us.
Those events "The fiery furnace, the Lions Den, Passover, the Red Sea, Noah's Flood, were not the result of God's wrath, but were the trials and tribulation that the faithful have experienced from the beginning and which Jesus said we would have which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. Your error is that you still have not recognized the difference. I would suggest that you go back up and read the results of the seals and trumpet that I posted, as well as the bowl judgments.

GOD has no reason to take away His chosen. The first shall be last.... We stood with God in the 1st earth age against Satan, and we will stand at the last.
Please go an reread the seals and trumpets listed in this post in regards to why God has every reason to remove His chosen.

Revelation starts out writing to the churches WHAT THE Heck FOR? if we are NOT even a part of it. Why are you even reading revelation, got nothing to do with you.
First of all, we there is a blessing promised to those who read the words of this prophecy and those who hear it and take to heart the things that are written in it. Since Revelation describes the coming horrors of God's wrath for those who reject Christ, then God wants us to know about the events of His wrath and all related information so that we can warn unbelievers. We are to warn a Christ rejecting world about consequences of God's coming wrath, as well as dying in that state. The problem is that no body believes, including believers who don't study it.

You see, the world thinks that man is in charge of his destiny and that there is no God. By the multitude of people committing suicide, they believe that once they kill themselves that they will cease to exist. Unfortunately, once they take that last breath they find out that this is not the case, that their spirits are very conscious and aware after the death of the body.

We are supposed telling people about the offer of salvation through faith in Christ, as well as their dead state without Him. We are to read the book of Revelation and tell people about the wrath that is coming upon this earth. You posed the question:

"Revelation starts out writing to the churches WHAT THE Heck FOR? if we are NOT even a part of it?" If believers don't share the information contained in Revelation, then who will? Certainly not the unbelieving world!

Regarding Revelation starts out writing to the churches, the book of Revelation is divide up into three parts, as John was told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from 1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period.

That said, we are still living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church has been gathered, the "what is now" will be completed with the "what will take place later" to follow and which includes all of the events of God's wrath and all related information leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Why does He separate them and tell them 7 times HE WHO OVERCOMES, if they are not going to be overcoming ANYTHING. Or do you feel you have just been so persecuted already that you just couldn't take anymore?
The warning to overcome, is in direct relation to their rebukes.

Ephesus = Left their first love, meaning that their faith in Christ had turned into cold religious orthodoxy. The command is to repent, i.e. overcome that.

Smyrna = Continue to persevere even though they were poor materially and even though Satan was going to have some thrown into prision for ten days. To overcome, get the victory over.

Pergamum = To continue persevering even though Satan's throne was there. This church also had those who held to the teachings of Balaam who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to eat foods sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. Like their were those in this church who held to the teachings of the Nicolaitans who taught the same thing. The warning by the Lord is to repent and overcome these things. The message to all believers is to overcome sexual immorality.

Thyatira = They had a woman who calls herself a prophetess who was also teaching that church to eat foods sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. The Lord's rebuke is to repent and overcome these and that goes for all believers in regards to sexual immorality.

Sardis = The Lord had no commendations for this church. They were sleeping and what little faith they had was about to die. His command to remember what they had received and heard is referring to the gospel i.e. not living by it and therefore living according to the world. The Lord's command is to repent and overcome their faithless condition.

I think that you get the gist of what the Lord is referring to by overcoming, that is, getting the victory over. These rebukes are for the entire church. In other words, if the shoe fits, then repent and overcome. Basically, regarding anything that is impeding between a believer and God, we need to recognize it and get the victory over.

I hope that you will take this information, apply it and benefit from it, instead of fighting against the truth.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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I don't believe a pre-trib rapture is a DEmotion, of sorts, but rather a stepping up of the game (and our part in it), so to speak. Just the opposite of what you're thinking. :unsure:[/QUOTE]

I don't think it is a demotion, I think it is a soul killer, a child of God killer. I think 95%, maybe more, of the people taught the "theory" think, "Excellent, I don't need to really know anything more of Gods Word than that". I am not going to be here for it anyway.
And when they are not "caught out", they don't even know that time has past, they have no knowledge on how to navigate through the hour of tribulation. They believe that since they wont be here, all is fair and ok to do because they wont be here for any trouble.

I ask you HOW DOES anything about rapture BENEFIT GOD? He already has 6 billion or so souls that have come through this life. Who can forget all the chariots that Elijah opened the eyes of his arm bearer to see? All the saints under the altar already can't come back to stand up for Him again. You think He just wants Satan to have a free for all with the souls of His Children? You don't think He would like some help? What is the purpose of us? Just something more for Him to take care of. WE are supposed to be His servants. His children. Are you willing to give anything for and eternal life? It wasn't enough that HE Died for you? Will you ever be willing to lay your life down for Him? And if you are not, the very least you should do it quit telling others they shouldn't also.

Gods people perish from lack of knowledge. When do you think that will be?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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Thought you agreed with someone else and were done?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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I am so confused as to why people think the Church is raptured but Israel remains.

The Gentiles have been Grafted into Israel we are one and the same.

Do not be fooled, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth
Greetings Rasputin!

The answer to your confusion is that, Israel did not and does not acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. Where the church has recognized Him as their Lord. Israel is still waiting for their Messiah to show up for the first time, when He already did, paying the penalty for the sins of mankind. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, as scripture makes clear.

Israel will remain here because seventy seven year period were decreed upon them and their holy city, Jerusalem. Sixty nine of those seven year periods were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off/crucified.

Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against." That said, the Lord is still in the process of building His church. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will remove His church and take up right where He left with Israel in the fulfillment of that last seven years, which will contain all of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Why would God pour out His wrath upon those who have believed in His Son? Does God punish the righteous with the wicked?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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No. Verse 8 is covering two separate aspects: the first (Pt A) is covering the man of sin's ARRIVAL at the START of the 7-yrs, the second part of the verse (Pt B) is speaking of the END of the 7-yrs and his destruction.

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume [future tense (not at the same moment as Pt A)] with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming"



2Th1-2 [overall context] is covering [a NUMBER of] aspects of ALL SEVEN YEARS (of the future trib) and the "man of sin" (and ALL he will DO over those 7 yrs).

Example:

--BEGINNING [2Th2:7b-8a; 2Th2:9 his "ARRIVAL"]

--MIDDLE [2Th2:4]

--END [2Th2:8b (your reference)]


[just like Dan9:27's BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END]
All I can really say is "Grass is green, sky is chartreuse"
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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I don't believe a pre-trib rapture is a DEmotion, of sorts, but rather a stepping up of the game (and our part in it), so to speak. Just the opposite of what you're thinking. :unsure:
I don't think it is a demotion, I think it is a soul killer, a child of God killer. I think 95%, maybe more, of the people taught the "theory" think, "Excellent, I don't need to really know anything more of Gods Word than that". I am not going to be here for it anyway.
And when they are not "caught out", they don't even know that time has past, they have no knowledge on how to navigate through the hour of tribulation.[/quote]

The above is incorrect! If I were here on the earth during that seven years, I could use Revelation to follow along like a detailed road map. As soon as the church wen missing, the next thing that I would be watching for is the opening of the first seal, which would be that ruler on the white horse to establish his seven year covenant with Israel, which would reveal him as the antichrist. After that, I would be watching for the results of the 2nd seal rider on the red horse, which would be to take peace from the earth so that mankind would kill each other. And the same for the rest of the seals, the trumpets and the bowl judgments.

So, what do you mean that they won't even know the time has past. Those great tribulation saints will know all of the events that are going to take place and what they need to do.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I don't believe a pre-trib rapture is a DEmotion, of sorts, but rather a stepping up of the game (and our part in it), so to speak. Just the opposite of what you're thinking. :unsure:
I ask you HOW DOES anything about rapture BENEFIT GOD?
Well for one, His bride will be removed while His wrath is being poured out on a Christ rejecting world. You should stop questioning scripture and just believe what you are reading.

He already has 6 billion or so souls that have come through this life. Who can forget all the chariots that Elijah opened the eyes of his arm bearer to see? All the saints under the altar already can't come back to stand up for Him again.
All of those people will be resurrected in one of the phases of the first resurrection. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" is comprised of two words ana = up and hestemi = to stand. Properly, to stand up again in the same body. Anastasis only refers to a physical, bodily resurrection. Jesus is our example of this, when He rose in the same body that he was crucified in, albeit immoral and glorified, which is also our hope.

You think He just wants Satan to have a free for all with the souls of His Children? You don't think He would like some help? What is the purpose of us? Just something more for Him to take care of. WE are supposed to be His servants. His children. Are you willing to give anything for and eternal life? It wasn't enough that HE Died for you? Will you ever be willing to lay your life down for Him? And if you are not, the very least you should do it quit telling others they shouldn't also.
You're still not discerning the difference between common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath to end the age. It is the later that believers are not appointed to suffer. Understand this concept you won't get it.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Well for one, His bride will be removed while His wrath is being poured out on a Christ rejecting world. You should stop questioning scripture and just believe what you are reading.



All of those people will be resurrected in one of the phases of the first resurrection. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" is comprised of two words ana = up and hestemi = to stand. Properly, to stand up again in the same body. Anastasis only refers to a physical, bodily resurrection. Jesus is our example of this, when He rose in the same body that he was crucified in, albeit immoral and glorified, which is also our hope.



You're still not discerning the difference between common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath to end the age. It is the later that believers are not appointed to suffer. Understand this concept you won't get it.

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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TDW: I don't believe a pre-trib rapture is a DEmotion, of sorts, but rather a stepping up of the game (and our part in it), so to speak. Just the opposite of what you're thinking. :unsure:
DA said: I ask you HOW DOES anything about rapture BENEFIT GOD? He already has 6 billion or so souls that have come through this life.
How many of those have been "resurrected" (let alone "raptured"), as of yet? (The "many" in Matt27:52-53... okay... but not ALL of the OT saints, right? Dan12:13 says Daniel will be resurrected ['stand in thy lot'] "at the END of the days" [the specific day amounts named in Dan12, i.e. end of trib], so there's that. ;) They were "resurrected" and went into the holy city and appeared unto many, it says...)

DA said: Who can forget all the chariots that Elijah opened the eyes of his arm bearer to see? All the saints under the altar already can't come back to stand up for Him again. You think He just wants Satan to have a free for all with the souls of His Children? You don't think He would like some help?
Who says we'd be the "best" help [if you wanna call it that] while we still traverse this "foreign country/land" in our mere-mortal bodies?? (I don't believe Hebrews 11:40 is conveying such an idea, btw. :geek: )

DA said: What is the purpose of us? Just something more for Him to take care of. WE are supposed to be His servants. His children.
And He has plans for us ("the Church which is His body") that is more than what you're envisioning [re: a pre-trib rapture purpose] of twiddling our thumbs up there... :rolleyes:

:D

DA said: Are you willing to give anything for and eternal life? It wasn't enough that HE Died for you? Will you ever be willing to lay your life down for Him? And if you are not, the very least you should do it quit telling others they shouldn't also.
We aren't waiting for the "future, specific, limited time period [the 7-yr trib/DOTL-dark-aspect]" in order to do such a thing. ;)

If that were so, then the majority of "the Church which is His body" had to miss out on getting to do such a thing, and only the final generation (of seven-years-worth) gets such an oppt'y. Not. :cautious:

Your viewpoint, while sounding noble and heroic, falls woefully short, as I see it.
 
R

Rasputin_OZ

Guest
Greetings Rasputin!

The answer to your confusion is that, Israel did not and does not acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. Where the church has recognized Him as their Lord. Israel is still waiting for their Messiah to show up for the first time, when He already did, paying the penalty for the sins of mankind. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, as scripture makes clear.

Israel will remain here because seventy seven year period were decreed upon them and their holy city, Jerusalem. Sixty nine of those seven year periods were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off/crucified.

Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against." That said, the Lord is still in the process of building His church. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will remove His church and take up right where He left with Israel in the fulfillment of that last seven years, which will contain all of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Why would God pour out His wrath upon those who have believed in His Son? Does God punish the righteous with the wicked?
according to scripture once the number of the Gentiles is don't, Israel will return , their blindness will be removed.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I don't believe a pre-trib rapture is a DEmotion, of sorts, but rather a stepping up of the game (and our part in it), so to speak. Just the opposite of what you're thinking. :unsur

I don't think it is a demotion, I think it is a soul killer, a child of God killer. I think 95%, maybe more, of the people taught the "theory" think, "Excellent, I don't need to really know anything more of Gods Word than that". I am not going to be here for it anyway.
And when they are not "caught out", they don't even know that time has past, they have no knowledge on how to navigate through the hour of tribulation. They believe that since they wont be here, all is fair and ok to do because they wont be here for any trouble.

I ask you HOW DOES anything about rapture BENEFIT GOD? He already has 6 billion or so souls that have come through this life. Who can forget all the chariots that Elijah opened the eyes of his arm bearer to see? All the saints under the altar already can't come back to stand up for Him again. You think He just wants Satan to have a free for all with the souls of His Children? You don't think He would like some help? What is the purpose of us? Just something more for Him to take care of. WE are supposed to be His servants. His children. Are you willing to give anything for and eternal life? It wasn't enough that HE Died for you? Will you ever be willing to lay your life down for Him? And if you are not, the very least you should do it quit telling others they shouldn't also.

Gods people perish from lack of knowledge. When do you think that will be?
I would think most, if not all of the mid acts dispensationalists, tend to accept the pre tribulation rapture of the church so it’s interesting finding out here that you don’t hold that view.

The objective of God in taking us out is so that he could finally deal with Israel nation, who rejected his son for the second time in mid acts when they stoned Stephen.

The story of Joseph in genesis shows this picture. Joseph brothers, which represent the jews, rejected Joseph, was struck by famine. Joseph had a foreign bride, which represents the church, which had food throughout the famine, so the Egyptians were saved from wrath, just as the church is saved from the tribulation.

On the first encounter, his brothers did not recognize him, but in the 2nd encounter, Joseph will finally reveal himself to them, and they will all accept him. That will be the second coming of Jesus for the Jews, at the end of the tribulation.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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On the first encounter, his brothers did not recognize him, but in the 2nd encounter, Joseph will finally reveal himself to them, and they will all accept him. That will be the second coming of Jesus for the Jews, at the end of the tribulation.
Yes, and that took place (Gen45:1) when there were "yet five years" (Gen45:6) of [Joseph's] "7-yr famine" remaining. ;) [while Joseph was still "separate from his brethren" (and literally still residing in a different location from them)]