The Deceitfulness of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[Stunnedbygrace]

Funny, then I guess John was mistaken when he wrote a believer does NOT sin.

Do you still sin?

Then guess what........I've got some bad news for ya.

The way I am recalling the vs is, if we abide in Him we will not sin. So then, abiding in Him at all times should be our goal, since when we are abiding we don't sin.

But some people read it and say, no! If I abide (trust) in Him, I WILL still sin!
They directly argue with the verse and set themselves up for failure.
Now, I agree that it seems a slim chance that any of us could fully and without interruption, trust\abide at all times, but shouldn't we run the race set before us without beginning by refusing what God has said as being true?

 

[Grandpa]

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matt 7:22-23

When I was young I wondered who on earth this verse ever referred to. Since then I have met many circus performers who are liars, frauds, empty people driven by greed who claim the miraculous but do not know Jesus. Now if even I can spot this reality yet Jesus will not, that is stupid. Yet I hear people say it is the pharisees or legalists this is referring to.

And the people who deny the reality of these verses are the same ones who deny walking in righteousness matters and calls the righteous evil because they claim it is righteousness done for self justification and not as a fruit of faith.

I would say it is obvious those who deny they can walk as true followers of Christ wish to slam the door for everyone else and claim the crown for themselves, rather than repenting and humbling themselves.

Did any of the pharisees think they weren't righteous based on their work?

Nope. Every single one of them thought they were righteous. Because of what they did.

But that isn't true righteousness in the eyes of God. True righteousness in the eyes of God is perfection.

We are righteous in Christ but, like everything else in the Christian walk, it is a gift.

So on that day all we will be able to say is Thank You Lord. We won't be able to say "didn't we do all these righteous works and deserve to be here?"

I don't think that the humanist quite understands where the bar has been placed. Its a lot higher than you think.

But if you want to pretend that its lower and that everyone can reach the level of righteousness required by God just by willing themselves to do so, then I suppose you are following right in the footsteps of the pharisees before you.

 

[PeterJens]

Did any of the pharisees think they weren't righteous based on their work?

Nope. Every single one of them thought they were righteous. Because of what they did.

You think I am justified by my works. As I have stated before you are lying about what I have said. I have said I am justified by the cross alone, but I walk in righteousness.

You talk of a bar as if you know it. All I have heared is about your impossible undefined standards. To support your theology you make man like the gnostics impossibly evil. Now to call me humanist because I believe there is good in people is a sad condemnation of people state. The gospels good news is though man is fallen, lost and alone they can walk with God in fellowship, in purity, in righteousness.

Jesus was saying the aim of the pharisees was good, only their execution was wrong. They were cold inside, without love, dead, with seared consciences. Now what I hear from your camp is failure, and lostness.

Now if the apostles are saying you can walk, then you can walk. It is they who are our authority. The only reason you reinterpret the verses because of your own failure. But that is the dilemma. Do you give up or press on in faith?

Listen to Jesus

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:29-30

Jesus is not asking you to take on the impossible, just to walk faithfully. Pride comes before a fall, and I have seen many proud men fall. It is simply one step at a time, and having faith.

Emotional lies within. Our emotions tell us what is impossible, and where not to go. They warn us of great harm and the impossible conflict if we trust God. So many times, I have been hurt, and my emotions tell me revenge. Then I bow at the cross, the Lord melts my heart, love returns and I forgive as I have been forgiven. I get up and move on.

Emotions do not define our future faith does, by walking with Jesus our emotions and responses change. So few times do I hear this testified to, yet this is the walk.

I call to those who have ears to listen to Jesus and the gospel.
Take up your mat and walk, you have been healed.

Failure does not define your future but victory in Jesus can if you believe and walk.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You talk of a bar as if you know it. All I have heared is about your impossible undefined standards. Now to call me humanist because I believe there is good in people is a sad condemnation of people state.

Jesus was saying the aim of the pharisees was good, only their execution was wrong. They were cold inside, without love, dead, with seared consciences. Now what I hear from your camp is failure, and lostness.

The only reason you reinterpret the verses because of your own failure. But that is the dilemma.

Jesus is not asking you to take on the impossible, just to walk faithfully.

Failure does not define your future but victory in Jesus can if you believe and walk.

I picked the sentences from your post that I specifically want to address. By the way, good morning, Peter!

As to the first part, "impossible undefined standards." The standards of holiness have been defined quite well by Jesus. We just don't listen. (Although you have, realizing as you do that revenge is not the way for us.)
The standards He laid out ARE impossible for us. But all things are possible with GOD. This is why we look to HIM to fix us, instead of our own efforts to meet these standards that are impossible for men. And the more we strive, the more hypocritical we become, convincing ourselves that we have forgiven when bitterness over the matter keeps arising in our minds, PROVING that our claim of having forgiven is a lie. It isn't this poster who keeps giving impossible standards. It is the standards of God that are impossible for humans.

You did the same thing we do, when you talked about your mind and heart crying out for revenge. You saw the problem, realized you were helpless, went to God, and received help in your time of need and victory over your enemy.

This is a renewing of your mind although if someone were to ask you what God did, you would probably not be able to say anything but...I don't know. He just changed me on this and the bitter feelings of revenge were just gone and I even cried for the person, prayed for the person, and to my own surprise, LOVED and cared about the person! Your mind and heart were renewed but you can't say how He accomplished it.

Now if we were to take the above and compare it to your next part, where you say you believe there is good in people, it seems like saying...because I was able to truly forgive, not just SAY I forgave, it shows there is good in people - in me. This good is not in you. You saw what is in you - desire for bitter revenge. The good is in CHRIST in you. HE gave you the victory. I know that you know this, but your statement that there is good in people wars with what you know. If anyone sees anger, bitter revenge, hurt feelings in you, they are seeing the true you. If they see love and forgiveness, THEN they are seeing CHRIST.

And it might seem to some that this would cause depression in us that the standards of holiness are beyond our capability but it doesn't. Instead it causes us to rejoice with tears of thanks because when we are weak and poor in spirit and admit this truth, then He gives us victory! When I am weak and admit it and cry for help, THEN I am strong and victorious. Therefore, I will glory in my weakness! (As Paul said). I can do all things through Christ in me! The only striving necessary is to keep a constant awareness of my weakness and poverty and look to Him and then all His riches and strength and victory are mine...!

Next sentence. You say Jesus was saying the aim of the Pharisees was good but the execution was wrong. This is not so. Their outward execution was strenuous and carefully nitpicky but their aim (their motive) was wrong.
If our motive is right (love), this love covers a multitude of sins, or as you say, "wrong execution." It's not the execution that He is concerned with, it's the aim, the motive, the reason of the heart for what we are doing.

To say you hear from this camp only of failure and lostness is...saying something different than what you have seen, experienced and known in CHRIST. You are there, where that camp is. You are just not seeing it quite yet. There is some...resistance and a push and pull in what you say, but it isn't there at all in your experience that you shared with us!

 

[PeterJens]

How many sins will condemn a person?
One.

John is saying you can walk in righteousness.
It is so important he was saying to know Jesus is to walk.

Imagine a toddler learning to walk. Crawling is so much safer and certain. Why even try to go on two legs, you fall over, the risk, its impossible. Just accept occasionally reaching up, but otherwise crawling is fine.

Jesus says unless you walk you cannot enter. Hey I can walk, but only for a bit, and you say I must walk without any mistakes. You can carry me so it is ok. No Jesus says if you do not walk in victory you are not worthy of me. You have to learn how to be a child of the Father. We are saved to be able to walk. It is our calling.

If you deny the calling you stay the defeated lost sinner you were before Jesus found you.

Now ofcourse the enemy wants you here. He will say walking is so impossible why even try. Jesus did so much, it is all Him, you do not have to do anything. Wallow, lay back, enjoy the pleasures of this world, because it will just roll on in the next, exactly the same as now. In fact a pat on the back for being so non-hypocritical and not even trying.

The parables are plain. You will be cast out, rejected, found unfruitful and without value, untransformed or able to give as you received, an empty vessel only full of self indulgence.

 

[gb9]

John is saying you can walk in righteousness.
It is so important he was saying to know Jesus is to walk.

Imagine a toddler learning to walk. Crawling is so much safer and certain. Why even try to go on two legs, you fall over, the risk, its impossible. Just accept occasionally reaching up, but otherwise crawling is fine.

Jesus says unless you walk you cannot enter. Hey I can walk, but only for a bit, and you say I must walk without any mistakes. You can carry me so it is ok. No Jesus says if you do not walk in victory you are not worthy of me. You have to learn how to be a child of the Father. We are saved to be able to walk. It is our calling.

If you deny the calling you stay the defeated lost sinner you were before Jesus found you.

Now ofcourse the enemy wants you here. He will say walking is so impossible why even try. Jesus did so much, it is all Him, you do not have to do anything. Wallow, lay back, enjoy the pleasures of this world, because it will just roll on in the next, exactly the same as now. In fact a pat on the back for being so non-hypocritical and not even trying.

The parables are plain. You will be cast out, rejected, found unfruitful and without value, untransformed or able to give as you received, an empty vessel only full of self indulgence.

a lot of truth in here. but, these things are the RESULT of being saved, not the cause. be clear on that.

 

[PeterJens]

I picked the sentences from your post that I specifically want to address. By the way, good morning, Peter!

Good morning Sbg. I agree that we have to walk in the Spirit. It is the Lord that changes my heart, by showing me love.
What is walking in righteousness is walking in the Spirit. It is not self justification, it is being aware of love.
Now my feeling of hurt and revenge is not sin, it is how you acknowledge pain and injury. It sounds to me this is what you define as sin, and as imperfection. But forever this response will be the same. God gets hurt. God desires revenge.

If you call this sin, then you say God sins. Sin is the inappropriate action, the taking of a situation and dealing with it in the wrong way.

This is the most important difference in defining righteousness. Righteousness is exercising the right response by choice.
Now you think in your mind I believe I am doing it alone. Ofcourse I do not. I am in communion with the Lord, and it is that communion that brings righteousness. Gods message is alone we are lost, with Him we are found.

I am saying as believers we can walk in this way without fault. It is not an impossible dream. It sounds like you are aware of this walk and walk it yourself.

Now what you maybe not aware of in Christ I am both my natural response and the love response. They are both me and the work Christ has done in my life. But you have polarised the two.

The truth is you are born with love in your soul, it defines you. This is what we are as born in the image of God. Love is a natural thing, it is why you see it throughout human experience irrespective of religious ideas. But because of hurt and pain we all shut it away, make sure it is not shown so it does not get hurt again. If you have not become aware of this in yourself, you are still very defended, but Jesus can set you free.

Now for hurt people like you, you are pure defence and Jesus is all love. Until you open up and become one in communion with the Lord that will be your polarisation and you will be unable to understand righteousness in its real depth.
Eternal life is love, if you are born again you are born into love, it is being the essence of who you are, let alone of who you are as a child of the Living God. It is why your heart sings to Him because he speaks to the deepest part of you.

So you could walk in righteousness if you did not deny and defend you heart so much. It is why John said righteousness is the outflow of a heart met by the Living Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

a lot of truth in here. but, these things are the RESULT of being saved, not the cause. be clear on that.

Amen. Salvation is the first step of trust on the way. Salvation is the beginning of healing and new life, a new structure and way of existing. Without the communion there is not growth or change or becoming. The mystery is that we ever start or that there is ever any hope for us, because we are so powerless and really really lost. But as Jesus said, we are called, we are chosen from the beginning of time. Nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have been hoping you would come back before I have to head out this morning!

What was going on in your heart in that situation, Peter? Was your hearts motivation love for that person who wronged you and hurt your feelings? With the thoughts of getting them back, were you loving your enemy in your heart or were you secretly murdering Him? And if it wasn't sin, this desire to get even and pay back for the hurt done to you, then why not just keep the revenge in your heart? I mean, you seem to be saying you think it wasn't sin because even GOD will pay back His enemies...and yet, you moved from those revenge feelings to love and forgiveness. What you are saying doesn't square with what Christ is really and truly doing in you. I see a fracture between what you are saying is true and what your experience really IS in the victory He gave you in the situation.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Peter, when you say what was going on inside is not sin but only if you had done the inappropriate outward action is what is sin, I disagree. Jesus talked about this as whitewashing a tomb to look pure and white on the outside, while there were awful things hidden inside. He also said it is what comes from our inside, our heart, that defiles us and that if we have anger in our heart at someone, we have ALREADY murdered them. And that we aren't to take our concern with the outside of the cup because it can be clean while the inside of it is filthy. But that if the inside is clean, the outside just will be as well.

But what you are saying is that what was in your heart at the hurt feelings and revenge is NOT what defiled you, but only if you acted outwardly. This is opposite of what our Lord said.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I wish I could stay and talk with you but I have to go groom some dogs! I will come back!

 

[PeterJens]

I have been hoping you would come back before I have to head out this morning!

What was going on in your heart in that situation, Peter? Was your hearts motivation love for that person who wronged you and hurt your feelings? With the thoughts of getting them back, were you loving your enemy in your heart or were you secretly murdering Him? And if it wasn't sin, this desire to get even and pay back for the hurt done to you, then why not just keep the revenge in your heart? I mean, you seem to be saying you think it wasn't sin because even GOD will pay back His enemies...and yet, you moved from those revenge feelings to love and forgiveness. What you are saying doesn't square with what Christ is really and truly doing in you. I see a fracture between what you are saying is true and what your experience really IS in the victory He gave you in the situation.

Ok. Let me put things 100% in context. I had no feelings particularly towards anyone, other than loving and caring for those around. I am hurt. My defensive reaction is feeling the pain and wanting to retaliate. It is not a thought over time, it is what we immediately do. This is called being self aware. It is called the flight or fight response.

I was carrying my daughter once aged 3 and she decided to bite me on the shoulder. Boy it hurt. My immediate feeling was drop the child, check the wound. In an instant I knew, no that would hurt the one I loved, I needed to put them down and assess what was going on. She remembers the incident, the anger she felt and going too far and "Ooooops".

The anger that rose and everything natural kick in, but I actually did very little. I do not know why she did it, it was one of those stupid things kids do. I forgave her almost straight away. But the flow of feelings and interplay was amazing.

Now what you have projected on to me is way deeper into self worth and pompous how dare they than I live in or even dwell anywhere near. It shows what is in your thoughts and heart.

I have no clue why I was hurt, I was just recognising it and then went to work out could I do anything to help the situation.

To walk in righteousness and love is to know who you are and what is happening. So no I am not sinning. I am not wanting or planning revenge or harbouring ill will or anger or hatred or murder. I know who I am and I know my value before the Lord. I also know the lostness of most people and their random emotional outbursts. Maybe you still need to learn this yourself.

How many times must I forgive a person each day? A lot.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ok. Let me put things 100% in context. I had no feelings particularly towards anyone, other than loving and caring for those around. I am hurt. My defensive reaction is feeling the pain and wanting to retaliate. It is not a thought over time, it is what we immediately do. This is called being self aware. It is called the flight or fight response.

I was carrying my daughter once aged 3 and she decided to bite me on the shoulder. Boy it hurt. My immediate feeling was drop the child, check the wound. In an instant I knew, no that would hurt the one I loved, I needed to put them down and assess what was going on. She remembers the incident, the anger she felt and going too far and "Ooooops".

The anger that rose and everything natural kick in, but I actually did very little. I do not know why she did it, it was one of those stupid things kids do. I forgave her almost straight away. But the flow of feelings and interplay was amazing.

Now what you have projected on to me is way deeper into self worth and pompous how dare they than I live in or even dwell anywhere near. It shows what is in your thoughts and heart.

I have no clue why I was hurt, I was just recognising it and then went to work out could I do anything to help the situation.

To walk in righteousness and love is to know who you are and what is happening. So no I am not sinning. I am not wanting or planning revenge or harbouring ill will or anger or hatred or murder. I know who I am and I know my value before the Lord. I also know the lostness of most people and their random emotional outbursts. Maybe you still need to learn this yourself.

How many times must I forgive a person each day? A lot.

But you said revenge thoughts WERE what was in you...now you are saying you were NOT having revenge thoughts. By the way, I do this same thing.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And if you, as you just said, had no particular feelings at all toward any one in particular in the situation you previously posted, who were the revenge feelings directed toward in your mind? It is not how revenge fantasies work that they are vague and not directed toward anyone in particular...

 

[PeterJens]

Peter, when you say what was going on inside is not sin but only if you had done the inappropriate outward action is what is sin, I disagree. Jesus talked about this as whitewashing a tomb to look pure and white on the outside, while there were awful things hidden inside. He also said it is what comes from our inside, our heart, that defiles us and that if we have anger in our heart at someone, we have ALREADY murdered them. And that we aren't to take our concern with the outside of the cup because it can be clean while the inside of it is filthy. But that if the inside is clean, the outside just will be as well.

But what you are saying is that what was in your heart at the hurt feelings and revenge is NOT what defiled you, but only if you acted outwardly. This is opposite of what our Lord said.

Let us get real, being hurt is what happens all the time. The desire to hurt back is our natural response.
What we are talking here now is about murder or the destruction of another human being.
What you are accusing me of is murder by acknowledging an emotional desire to cause pain.
I do not want to be in the same room as you if you get upset you want to murder me, even for a short time.

Now the Lord has taught me love, so I learn to ask why this situation has come about, and how I can help. Sometimes it is like approaching a hurt caged animal that wants to scratch and hurt all around, nothing to do with the target. That is where my love planted by God kicks in. That is where the work of freeing love in me cleanses and purifies who I am.

But you do not know this reality it appears, and make me out to be a murderer. This is why Jesus said you need to deal with your heart and how you react and let His love in to literally change you. Do you know this in your life?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ah! You say, the lostness of many people and their random emotional outbursts" and I understand what you are saying there. But because you have been given victory in this does not mean it doesn't involve inward cleansing and renewing of mind. He desires our hearts and we have to go to Him with what's in them and admit to what's in them or we never will have much victory. We might have better social manners than someone else, in not exploding outwardly, but we don't dare fool ourselves about what was in our heart, even if it was only for seconds, we still murdered in Spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

And if you, as you just said, had no particular feelings at all toward any one in particular in the situation you previously posted, who were the revenge feelings directed toward in your mind? It is not how revenge fantasies work that they are vague and not directed toward anyone in particular...

I do not have revenge fantasies. When I used the word revenge I was meaning retaliation in the moment against another.
It is like a sarcastic duel, who can insult who the most. It can be a joke, we do it in the family every now and then and sometimes it can be serious. My kids have said sometimes their anger is enough to kill me, because I asked one question.
Thankfully they are working on anger issues, and they are getting a lot better.

The whole reason why I started this particular point was to show how we often start an emotional situation and how communion with the Lord can help us resolve it. This is not sin though, it is knowing the ebb and flow of interactions and how we react and then resolve our internal conflicts. So I do not have a white washed tomb, or am dead inside or have uncontrolled desire that rage within. I hope I am bringing out good things that the Lord has done in me to share and bring liberty to others.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Let us get real, being hurt is what happens all the time. The desire to hurt back is our natural response.
What we are talking here now is about murder or the destruction of another human being.
What you are accusing me of is murder by acknowledging an emotional desire to cause pain.
I do not want to be in the same room as you if you get upset you want to murder me, even for a short time.

Now the Lord has taught me love, so I learn to ask why this situation has come about, and how I can help. Sometimes it is like approaching a hurt caged animal that wants to scratch and hurt all around, nothing to do with the target. That is where my love planted by God kicks in. That is where the work of freeing love in me cleanses and purifies who I am.

But you do not know this reality it appears, and make me out to be a murderer. This is why Jesus said you need to deal with your heart and how you react and let His love in to literally change you. Do you know this in your life?

I am not making you out to be a murderer, Peter. It is Jesus who said anger in our heart is murder of that person. I believe Him that it doesn't matter if I don't follow through outwardly, I have still done the deed in secret, in Spirit, in my heart. And it is by seeing His forgiveness toward me that I can forgive those who do the same thing to me. It is only through seeing how much He forgives me of that I am able to extend that forgiveness to others rather than condemning them as if I haven't done the same exact thing before.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah! You say, the lostness of many people and their random emotional outbursts" and I understand what you are saying there. But because you have been given victory in this does not mean it doesn't involve inward cleansing and renewing of mind. He desires our hearts and we have to go to Him with what's in them and admit to what's in them or we never will have much victory. We might have better social manners than someone else, in not exploding outwardly, but we don't dare fool ourselves about what was in our heart, even if it was only for seconds, we still murdered in Spirit.

Sadly, Many will never admit this fact. That is why legalism is so dangerous, it gives us an outward appearance of morality and righteous living, so we must be saved, but it hides in the deepest parts of our hearts the sin and dirt of our real natures. Enough that we are blind to it and will never admit we even have it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I do not have revenge fantasies. When I used the word revenge I was meaning retaliation in the moment against another.
It is like a sarcastic duel, who can insult who the most. It can be a joke, we do it in the family every now and then and sometimes it can be serious. My kids have said sometimes their anger is enough to kill me, because I asked one question.
Thankfully they are working on anger issues, and they are getting a lot better.

The whole reason why I started this particular point was to show how we often start an emotional situation and how communion with the Lord can help us resolve it. This is not sin though, it is knowing the ebb and flow of interactions and how we react and then resolve our internal conflicts. So I do not have a white washed tomb, or am dead inside or have uncontrolled desire that rage within. I hope I am bringing out good things that the Lord has done in me to share and bring liberty to others.

Okay, really have to go or I'll be late. I have enjoyed talking with you Peter and I'm sorry if I've upset you!