The devil's crime

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VW

VW

Banned
#1
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#1
As I was walking tonight, I saw a baby bird fallen out of it's nest, and close to death. My heart was moved to compassion because of this, and my helplessness to do anything. I brought this to the Lord, this senseless suffering and death, which resulted in one of those hyper conversations with Him; you know what I mean, where He makes things clear with words and images and thoughts, so that you see the why of something. This is what I saw;

In the begining there was no death in the creation, everything was perfect, and nothing ever passed away. All creatures existed in perfect harmony, with no sickness or injury or death, none. And God created man, and He put him over all things in the creation, even bringing each of the animals to him so that the man could name them. And then, so that the man would not be alone, God made him a companion, made from his own flesh, so that the man would have deep empathy and compassion for her. And everything was in perfect harmony, and God saw that all that He had made was good. And went to walk in the garden with the man and the woman each day.

The devil, being very subtle, went to the woman and deceived her into disobeying God. He lied to her, and enticed her, and she went to the man, who chose to eat and die with her. Could Adam have done differently? Yes, but as the woman was flesh of his flesh, we can see how he chose as he did. What mother would not give herself up for her child, flesh of her flesh? And the devil knew this, just as he knew that the result would be death coming into the creation, death for all things.

Adam made a chioce, one which none of us is qualified to judge, one which I would not want to make in his place. He was in a terrible position, and I believe that he spent the rest of his long life looking upon the result of his choice, even to seeing the murder of his son, by his brother. God did not condemn Adam, and we should not either.

But the devil, his motivations were clear. He wanted to see death come into creation, for he feels only hatred and jealousy. As Jesus said, he comes only to kill and steal and destroy. He has been a liar from the beginning, and he still lies. Death that now on creation is laid to his account. The redemption that Jesus has wrought is to overcome death, in all of it's manifestations.

We bear some responsibility for death by our sins. But the redemption of Jesus Christ transforms from the darkness, removes from us the condemnation, and restores us to life, not as we knew life before, but life eternal.

One day, even the baby birds will not die, not even one.
 
M

Mulehide

Guest
#2
#2
Thanks for this! Well said
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#3
#3
The devil is the greatest criminal that ever has or ever will exist. A malovent narcisst of the worst order. His criminal culpability directly and indirectly are the absolute worst the cosmos will ever know and he will burn forever in hell for it a ruined creature incapable of ever repenting. That said, you are discussing the first sin? It was pride: plain and simple. He wanted to be be like God and snuck in and corrupted God's good handiwork.
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#4
#4
One small detail- Adam was WITH Eve when she took that first bite of the fruit. She went to Adam WHO WAS WITH HER.

Adam's first choice was not putting input on Eve's decision. His second choice was to go ahead and act as she did, and take of the fruit.

Just saying =S When you consider that, your whole point doesn't exactly make perfect sense I don't think. I could be missing something here, though, just point it out if I am ^_^
 
VW

VW

Banned
#5
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#5
No, what I was actually seeing was how he knew enough about the man to put him in the position of choosing the woman over God andthe creation. The point to me was two fold. 1) that we must, must without fail, depend upon the Holy Spirit to see the truth, to not be tricked, to know which way to choose when we find ourselves in the position of having to choose. 2) that even death has been defeated, and that in Christ we are alive, death has lost it's hold on us, and we shall live forever in Him and to Him. And when everything is said and done, the new creation will be more perfect than before; death shall never enter it.
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#6
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#6
Thankyou VW, beautiful words. As I read I could not help but think that satan lost twice, first due to his own evil, second because we are able to truelly see just how great God Our Father is ,by seeing how lousy evil is.
God bless, pickles
 
VW

VW

Banned
#7
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#7
Vidy said:
One small detail- Adam was WITH Eve when she took that first bite of the fruit. She went to Adam WHO WAS WITH HER.

Adam's first choice was not putting input on Eve's decision. His second choice was to go ahead and act as she did, and take of the fruit.

Just saying =S When you consider that, your whole point doesn't exactly make perfect sense I don't think. I could be missing something here, though, just point it out if I am ^_^
Click to expand...
When it says that Adam was with her, I don't believe that means in proximity. Adam was in charge of the creation, and everything in it. I believe that he knew what was happening, could see it so to speak, but was not actually there when the devil was talking to Eve. She went to him. Why would she do that if he was already there?
 
M

Mulehide

Guest
#8
#8
Vidy said:
One small detail- Adam was WITH Eve when she took that first bite of the fruit. She went to Adam WHO WAS WITH HER.

Adam's first choice was not putting input on Eve's decision. His second choice was to go ahead and act as she did, and take of the fruit.

Just saying =S When you consider that, your whole point doesn't exactly make perfect sense I don't think. I could be missing something here, though, just point it out if I am ^_^
Click to expand...
Actually, it would not change the point of the post...just the logistics. Satan still was the evil mastermind. God still provided glorious victory and redemption.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#9
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#9
The passage in question:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes; and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings."

This in no way shows that Adam was there when Eve was discussing this with the devil.

What I find interesting is that their eyes were not opened until they both had eaten.
 
M

Mulehide

Guest
#10
#10
VW said:
The passage in question:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes; and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings."

This in no way shows that Adam was there when Eve was discussing this with the devil.

What I find interesting is that their eyes were not opened until they both had eaten.
Click to expand...
The common thought is Adam partook so Eve would not be alone in her transgression (and subsequest punishment.) Are you suggesting neither would have been in such trouble if Adam had refrained from eating? Interesting.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#11
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#11
It does say that both of their eyes were opened when Adam ate of the fruit. If I understand the sequence, Eve ate, then took to Adam to eat, and then both of their eyes were opened. I know that I am being redundant here, but I believe that there would still have been trouble if Adam had not eaten, but when he did eat, then the full effect of the devil's plan occurred.

Adam was very tied to Eve, because it was God who said that she was flesh of his flesh. It could be that Adam was just that simple, (not simple minded, but innocent,) that he did not think other than Eve was bringing him to eat, telling him it was good. The way that it shows their eyes being opened when they had both eaten shows a loss of that innocence. The death from eating was surely already working, even before their eyes were opened.

The change in them both is shown in their next conversation with God. Both of them shifted blame for what they had done to someone else, and Adam even indirectly blamed God because it was the woman's fault, the woman that God had given to him. Eve at least told the truth, that the devil deceived her.

But death was the result, and even now the entire creation travails under the curse of that moment. One day soon, we will have access to the tree of life, but we have life already in Jesus. But what wonders are awaiting us, when we go to be with Him? And what will the creation be like, when the old is destroyed, and the new is given from God?
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#12
#12
VW said:
The passage in question:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes; and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings."

This in no way shows that Adam was there when Eve was discussing this with the devil.

What I find interesting is that their eyes were not opened until they both had eaten.
Click to expand...
This is the portion in "question" The real question is whether they ate simultaneously or not. The "and she" can be non-linear or linear. His presence looks pretty clear to me.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#13
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#13
charisenexcelcis said:
This is the portion in "question" The real question is whether they ate simultaneously or not. The "and she" can be non-linear or linear. His presence looks pretty clear to me.
Click to expand...
It is written that she ate, and then she gave to him and he ate.

I believe that Adam and Eve were joined in a way that is unknown to us now, that they were truly of one flesh, and that the language reflects this.

The argument is that Adam was at fault for not saying something to Eve while the devil was lying to her. Which misses the whole point of what I am saying, that the devil is the cause of death in the world. I do not deny that Adam was at fault, but it is significant that their eyes were not opened until Adam ate.

And it is interesting that Adam is not mentioned until Eve gave to him to eat.

I am much more inclined to believe the innocence of Adam until he ate than the implied complicity in the devil's deception. But then again, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so maybe someone here who does can enlighten us.

Thanks brother,
vic
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#14
#14
VW said:
It is written that she ate, and then she gave to him and he ate.

I believe that Adam and Eve were joined in a way that is unknown to us now, that they were truly of one flesh, and that the language reflects this.

The argument is that Adam was at fault for not saying something to Eve while the devil was lying to her. Which misses the whole point of what I am saying, that the devil is the cause of death in the world. I do not deny that Adam was at fault, but it is significant that their eyes were not opened until Adam ate.

And it is interesting that Adam is not mentioned until Eve gave to him to eat.

I am much more inclined to believe the innocence of Adam until he ate than the implied complicity in the devil's deception. But then again, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so maybe someone here who does can enlighten us.

Thanks brother,
vic
Click to expand...
I think you are correct about the unity of Adam and Eve, in fact, neither actually had a name until the fall. Adam is simply the most common Hebrew word for man and Eve's name didn't exist before the fall.
 
L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#15
#15
VW said:
As I was walking tonight, I saw a baby bird fallen out of it's nest, and close to death. My heart was moved to compassion because of this, and my helplessness to do anything. I brought this to the Lord, this senseless suffering and death, which resulted in one of those hyper conversations with Him; you know what I mean, where He makes things clear with words and images and thoughts, so that you see the why of something. This is what I saw;

In the begining there was no death in the creation, everything was perfect, and nothing ever passed away. All creatures existed in perfect harmony, with no sickness or injury or death, none. And God created man, and He put him over all things in the creation, even bringing each of the animals to him so that the man could name them. And then, so that the man would not be alone, God made him a companion, made from his own flesh, so that the man would have deep empathy and compassion for her. And everything was in perfect harmony, and God saw that all that He had made was good. And went to walk in the garden with the man and the woman each day.

The devil, being very subtle, went to the woman and deceived her into disobeying God. He lied to her, and enticed her, and she went to the man, who chose to eat and die with her. Could Adam have done differently? Yes, but as the woman was flesh of his flesh, we can see how he chose as he did. What mother would not give herself up for her child, flesh of her flesh? And the devil knew this, just as he knew that the result would be death coming into the creation, death for all things.

Adam made a chioce, one which none of us is qualified to judge, one which I would not want to make in his place. He was in a terrible position, and I believe that he spent the rest of his long life looking upon the result of his choice, even to seeing the murder of his son, by his brother. God did not condemn Adam, and we should not either.

But the devil, his motivations were clear. He wanted to see death come into creation, for he feels only hatred and jealousy. As Jesus said, he comes only to kill and steal and destroy. He has been a liar from the beginning, and he still lies. Death that now on creation is laid to his account. The redemption that Jesus has wrought is to overcome death, in all of it's manifestations.

We bear some responsibility for death by our sins. But the redemption of Jesus Christ transforms from the darkness, removes from us the condemnation, and restores us to life, not as we knew life before, but life eternal.

One day, even the baby birds will not die, not even one.
Click to expand...
The advent of death upon creation by Satan destroyed the relationship between God and man. One of the main tenets of the Christian faith is that when Jesus was resurrected from the dead, death (the fear of) was defeated and the promise of eternal life was renewed by God. I guess in some abstract way, we can say thank you to Satan for creating the circumstance that gave us this promise. LOL

In Christ,
John
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#16
#16
yes - there was a time when there was no evil and no death

and that time will come again
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#17
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#17
VW said:
As I was walking tonight, I saw a baby bird fallen out of it's nest, and close to death. My heart was moved to compassion because of this, and my helplessness to do anything. I brought this to the Lord, this senseless suffering and death, which resulted in one of those hyper conversations with Him; you know what I mean, where He makes things clear with words and images and thoughts, so that you see the why of something. This is what I saw;

In the begining there was no death in the creation, everything was perfect, and nothing ever passed away. All creatures existed in perfect harmony, with no sickness or injury or death, none. And God created man, and He put him over all things in the creation, even bringing each of the animals to him so that the man could name them. And then, so that the man would not be alone, God made him a companion, made from his own flesh, so that the man would have deep empathy and compassion for her. And everything was in perfect harmony, and God saw that all that He had made was good. And went to walk in the garden with the man and the woman each day.

The devil, being very subtle, went to the woman and deceived her into disobeying God. He lied to her, and enticed her, and she went to the man, who chose to eat and die with her. Could Adam have done differently? Yes, but as the woman was flesh of his flesh, we can see how he chose as he did. What mother would not give herself up for her child, flesh of her flesh? And the devil knew this, just as he knew that the result would be death coming into the creation, death for all things.

Adam made a chioce, one which none of us is qualified to judge, one which I would not want to make in his place. He was in a terrible position, and I believe that he spent the rest of his long life looking upon the result of his choice, even to seeing the murder of his son, by his brother. God did not condemn Adam, and we should not either.

But the devil, his motivations were clear. He wanted to see death come into creation, for he feels only hatred and jealousy. As Jesus said, he comes only to kill and steal and destroy. He has been a liar from the beginning, and he still lies. Death that now on creation is laid to his account. The redemption that Jesus has wrought is to overcome death, in all of it's manifestations.

We bear some responsibility for death by our sins. But the redemption of Jesus Christ transforms from the darkness, removes from us the condemnation, and restores us to life, not as we knew life before, but life eternal.

One day, even the baby birds will not die, not even one.
Click to expand...


very cool!
agree! what a beautiful piece.

if i may, i testify:

regarding baby birds, satan and his lies:

when i was 5 i was walking alone on a trail in the bush to kindergarten and found a baby owl (white and fluffy) that had fallen from the nest. i too felt alarm and compassion. being 5 i didn't know the situation was helpless.

i took the owl to the corner grocery where the wife said take it to her husband who was outside in the dirt parking lot.

i took it to him and held it up and said " i know where the nest is, can we go put it back?"

the man took it from me, and tossed it into a barrel in which he was burning garbage.

white fluff and smoke rose up into the air.

i was paralyzed. horrified. trauma.

he said "when they fall out of the nest, their mother won't take them back", and turned away.

enter satan (as usual):

from that time forward, he whispered to me:

"see? that's what happens when you FALL!"

i never forgot it, and i never will.

decades later as a broken sinner satan still whispered that to me. the same thing, same image.

"you didn't obey GOD, you FELL. He has rejected you. you're going up in smoke, just like me"

ultimately, i started having dreams (much like ex-muslim) where i was 5 years old up in an attic, alone, paralyzed by fear. a shining man in a white robe started coming and appearing on the ground below.(my family doesn't believe in God)

sometimes he just waved and smiled, other times he would signal for me to come down. i never did. he never spoke. he was building trust.

then one dream i peeked out the window and there was a ladder against the house up to the attic window and the man was on the ground smiling. we looked at each other for a long time. then he signalled to come down. i refused, and those dreams ended. but i never forgot them either.

it was after that in the real world The Lord went into high gear to rescue me, and began to use other people, and i ended up in His Hands for good.

z
 
VW

VW

Banned
#18
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#18
I hear from many christains that the creation will be back to as it was in the beginning. But I don't believe this. I believe that it will be much better. God is going to destroy the entire creation, the heavens and the earth, they will burn up with an unimaginable heat, and then remake them new. And we, we will be better than those in the garden, because as John wrote, it does not appear as yet what we shall be, but we know that when we see Him, we will become just as He is. I have a hard time imagining just how different that is from what Adam was.

When God is finished with His creation, there will not be one thing in it that is not only submitted to Him, but that is not in love with Him, that does not adore Him.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#19
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#19
Mulehide said:
The common thought is Adam partook so Eve would not be alone in her transgression (and subsequest punishment.) Are you suggesting neither would have been in such trouble if Adam had refrained from eating? Interesting.
Click to expand...

it says the woman was DECEIVED, but that her husband Adam TRANSGRESSED: can't trangress if you haven't known the Command.

God gave the commandment to ADAM, who was supposed to protect Eve, she being weaker than he.
sound like today's culture?
"women's lib": another tragic satanic lie.
destruction of the Divine order.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#20
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#20
zone said:
it says the woman was DECEIVED, but that her husband Adam TRANSGRESSED: can't trangress if you haven't known the Command.

God gave the commandment to ADAM, who was supposed to protect Eve, she being weaker than he.
sound like today's culture?
"women's lib": another tragic satanic lie.
destruction of the Divine order.
Click to expand...
I think that once Eve ate, Adam could not be realistically expected to refuse. Why? Because, unlike every other man from him till today, Eve was flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone. They had a union which was unique in creation.

It is also important to note that the devil was the subtle one, and that in truth, the man and the woman were not subtle at all. They were innocent. Like little children, and we all know just how easy it is to deceive a little child, if you are subtle.
 
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