The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire
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The soul and the spirit is one by can also be separate depending on how it is used in context of scripture.
The soul and the spirit are the two primary immaterial aspects that Scripture ascribes to humanity. It can be confusing to attempt to discern the precise differences between the two. The word “spirit” refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity. Human beings have a spirit, but we are not spirits. However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11;Hebrews 4:12;James 2:26), while unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-5;Colossians 2:13). In Paul's writing, the spiritual was pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14;3:1;Ephesians 1:3;5:19;Colossians 1:9;3:16). The spirit is the element in humanity which gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word “spirit” is used, it refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).
The word “soul” can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity. Unlike human beingshavinga spirit, human beingsaresouls. In its most basic sense, the word “soul” means “life.” However, beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts. One of these is humanity’s eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Humanity is naturally evil, and our souls are tainted as a result. The life principle of the soul is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18;Jeremiah 15:2). The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25;Psalm 43:5;Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word “soul” is used, it can refer to the whole person, whether alive or in the afterlife.
In the case of Matthew 10:28 we can see the context is the spirit, because it mentions both the material (body) and the immaterial (spirit) part of humanity.
The soul and the spirit are the two primary immaterial aspects that Scripture ascribes to humanity. It can be confusing to attempt to discern the precise differences between the two. The word “spirit” refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity. Human beings have a spirit, but we are not spirits. However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11;Hebrews 4:12;James 2:26), while unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-5;Colossians 2:13). In Paul's writing, the spiritual was pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14;3:1;Ephesians 1:3;5:19;Colossians 1:9;3:16). The spirit is the element in humanity which gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word “spirit” is used, it refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).
The word “soul” can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity. Unlike human beingshavinga spirit, human beingsaresouls. In its most basic sense, the word “soul” means “life.” However, beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts. One of these is humanity’s eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Humanity is naturally evil, and our souls are tainted as a result. The life principle of the soul is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18;Jeremiah 15:2). The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25;Psalm 43:5;Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word “soul” is used, it can refer to the whole person, whether alive or in the afterlife.
In the case of Matthew 10:28 we can see the context is the spirit, because it mentions both the material (body) and the immaterial (spirit) part of humanity.
I am not new to studying this topic. I once believed in Eternal Concious Torment (ECT) and defended that and then went to being on the fence about Eternal Torment versus Conditionalism. I was on the fence, because I thought the majority of churches believed in ECT. However, just because something is popular, doesn't mean it is true.
Anyways, in my own indepth personal study, I have found that the Eternal Torment View actually allegorizes more Scripture than the Conditional View. To learn more about that, check out the following link. It is a write up I did while I was not entirely convinced of either view. But it includes charts so as to help folks understand this topic a little better.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1izUtIKFb-DLSA-gnWs3UtW-i2Z6jatEQ593X259hP2M/mobilebasic?hl=en_US
Another problem you are going to be faced with is that you cannot explain how God is loving and yet He is able to torture folks beyond what the crime actually calls for. Like torture forever for a finite amount of crimes. How is that fair and just? How would you feel if one of your unbelieving family members you loved was tortured by an enemy country for the majority of their life? Now add infinity to the equation. You know...punishing someone waaaaaaay beyond what justice demands for that crime? I mean, I get it. You believe the Bible says that. But the Bible is not a book where you just turn off your brain or heart. Logic and Morals go with the Bible, too. So you have to be a little more open minded about the love of God and how His Word does reflect that love.
What do I mean by open minded? Well, while I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God for our day, it used Old English which has a wide variety of meaning than how we understand certain words today.
This is important to understand because the Greek word for "ever" in Revelation 14:11 is "aion." This can be defined as a period of time or an age. If you were to look at Blue Letter Bible, you will see this Greek Word for English words such as "world" (Which can be substituted with the word "age").
Greek Lexicon :: G165 (KJV)
Anyways, in my own indepth personal study, I have found that the Eternal Torment View actually allegorizes more Scripture than the Conditional View. To learn more about that, check out the following link. It is a write up I did while I was not entirely convinced of either view. But it includes charts so as to help folks understand this topic a little better.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1izUtIKFb-DLSA-gnWs3UtW-i2Z6jatEQ593X259hP2M/mobilebasic?hl=en_US
Another problem you are going to be faced with is that you cannot explain how God is loving and yet He is able to torture folks beyond what the crime actually calls for. Like torture forever for a finite amount of crimes. How is that fair and just? How would you feel if one of your unbelieving family members you loved was tortured by an enemy country for the majority of their life? Now add infinity to the equation. You know...punishing someone waaaaaaay beyond what justice demands for that crime? I mean, I get it. You believe the Bible says that. But the Bible is not a book where you just turn off your brain or heart. Logic and Morals go with the Bible, too. So you have to be a little more open minded about the love of God and how His Word does reflect that love.
What do I mean by open minded? Well, while I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God for our day, it used Old English which has a wide variety of meaning than how we understand certain words today.
This is important to understand because the Greek word for "ever" in Revelation 14:11 is "aion." This can be defined as a period of time or an age. If you were to look at Blue Letter Bible, you will see this Greek Word for English words such as "world" (Which can be substituted with the word "age").
Greek Lexicon :: G165 (KJV)
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Also see the origin of the English word "ever" here:
Online Etymology Dictionary
And then check out the word "eon", which is tied to that word here:
Online Etymology Dictionary
Both words have a definition of "life time" within them.
Online Etymology Dictionary
And then check out the word "eon", which is tied to that word here:
Online Etymology Dictionary
Both words have a definition of "life time" within them.
Αnother Doctrine You Want to Doctor?
The Lord Jesus suffered incomprehensible suffering on the cross, paying our "Hell" there. Yet He was innocent -- God Himself suffered our "Hell." Merely the anticipation yielded as it were great drops of blood in the garden.
He gave His back to the smiters,
& His cheeks to them who plucked out the hair.
He hid not His face from shame & spitting.
His death was the ransom for all.
He cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."
How much can an infinite God suffer in a few hours?
Can we really believe the intensity & extent of HIs suffering when He paid the penalty for our sins?
Surely he has born our griefs & carried our sorrows.
He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Is the horror of men paying for their own sins in the Lake of Fire any greater than the horror of Christ paying for our sins?
Is it reality which we do not want to believe?
The Lord Jesus suffered incomprehensible suffering on the cross, paying our "Hell" there. Yet He was innocent -- God Himself suffered our "Hell." Merely the anticipation yielded as it were great drops of blood in the garden.
He gave His back to the smiters,
& His cheeks to them who plucked out the hair.
He hid not His face from shame & spitting.
His death was the ransom for all.
He cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."
How much can an infinite God suffer in a few hours?
Can we really believe the intensity & extent of HIs suffering when He paid the penalty for our sins?
Surely he has born our griefs & carried our sorrows.
He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Is the horror of men paying for their own sins in the Lake of Fire any greater than the horror of Christ paying for our sins?
Is it reality which we do not want to believe?
Great question, Kenneth!
BTW, believers are also judged for their works. They get chastisement in this life and an evaluation at the Judgment Seat of Christ (the Bema of 1 & 2 Corinthians). Wood, Hay, & Stubble will be burned up -- not the believer though. Some are saved yet as through (dia) fire. In Rev 1 Christ has eyes like a flame of fire. Our God is a consuming fire.
In fact judgment is by works.
On the other hand salvation is not by works, but by grace.
It is well to distinguish the two doctrines.
BTW, believers are also judged for their works. They get chastisement in this life and an evaluation at the Judgment Seat of Christ (the Bema of 1 & 2 Corinthians). Wood, Hay, & Stubble will be burned up -- not the believer though. Some are saved yet as through (dia) fire. In Rev 1 Christ has eyes like a flame of fire. Our God is a consuming fire.
In fact judgment is by works.
On the other hand salvation is not by works, but by grace.
It is well to distinguish the two doctrines.
I understand and have probably pondered this issue longer than any other topic.
I'm with you, it's too hard to comprehend a punishment this severe.
I've read great points on both sides in my studies too, but I realized His ways are not our ways.
I think your ideas might just be wishful thinking though Jason?
For ever means for ever in this case. Heaven is, what makes us think that hell will be any different?
Just because we don't like this "side" of God?
Not our call.
.....Hell is a place that every person unsaved more or less wanted while on earth .....a place where there is no God.
I'm with you, it's too hard to comprehend a punishment this severe.
I've read great points on both sides in my studies too, but I realized His ways are not our ways.
I think your ideas might just be wishful thinking though Jason?
For ever means for ever in this case. Heaven is, what makes us think that hell will be any different?
Just because we don't like this "side" of God?
Not our call.
.....Hell is a place that every person unsaved more or less wanted while on earth .....a place where there is no God.
Hi Reborn,
Much of the confusion comes from a mistranslation of the words "Owlam" and "Aionios." They don't mean forever. Both words mean a long time, but they don't mean forever. Jude speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples of eternal fire and yet they are not burning today, thus "aionios" fire doesn't mean eternal.
Much of the confusion comes from a mistranslation of the words "Owlam" and "Aionios." They don't mean forever. Both words mean a long time, but they don't mean forever. Jude speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples of eternal fire and yet they are not burning today, thus "aionios" fire doesn't mean eternal.
Swordsman, did you leave out or make a typo above? How is a body going to be separated from the body?
Perhaps you have some verses to post where soul is not explainable as life or person?
Yes. But what I have read of Plato is dialogues, not pontifications. In other words, you find a bunch of guys arguing with each other (compare Job). I don't think that in Plato's dialogues you find him asserting anything at all. But characters are arguing with each other. It may be that his character of Socrates in the debates is the character that Plato thinks has the best argument.
I think that much of what people say about Plato is by people who have not studied him.
Perhaps you have some verses to post where soul is not explainable as life or person?
Yes. But what I have read of Plato is dialogues, not pontifications. In other words, you find a bunch of guys arguing with each other (compare Job). I don't think that in Plato's dialogues you find him asserting anything at all. But characters are arguing with each other. It may be that his character of Socrates in the debates is the character that Plato thinks has the best argument.
I think that much of what people say about Plato is by people who have not studied him.
What clear teaching is that? There is passage after passage that tells us what happens to the wicked. As I've pointed out that the aionios fire that is in Jude is not eternal, likewise, there are many passages that use the term Owlam that are not eternal, thus the word doesn't mean eternal. It's translated that way because translators have a theological position that they bring to the text.