The doctrine of election and reprobation

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MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#1
I would like to know how the majority of Christians deal with this doctrine.

The Bible makes it clear that God has written the names of His elect in the book of life, before He laid the foundations of the earth. The Bible is also clear that the reprobate cannot be saved. I have found this particular doctrine hard to understand, so I would appreciate your views on this subject.
 
May 20, 2016
66
3
8
#2
I would like to know how the majority of Christians deal with this doctrine.

The Bible makes it clear that God has written the names of His elect in the book of life, before He laid the foundations of the earth. The Bible is also clear that the reprobate cannot be saved. I have found this particular doctrine hard to understand, so I would appreciate your views on this subject.
The Bible makes it clear that God has written the names of His elect in the book of life, before He laid the foundations of the earth.

There are His chosen = spiritually beings = Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth,……, Noah,……., Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, …….., us, last name in the book of life .

They are also said as the vessels of mercy .

Rom9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

In their turn they should be sent to sojourn to this earth .

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


The Bible is also clear that the reprobate cannot be saved.

They are said as the vessels of wrath = devils.

Rom9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

The devils are possible to abide inside the born of flesh ( John1:12-13 , Rom9:7-8 ) e.g. John8:44 , Judas , Luk11:24-26 ,dust Gen3:14 , tares Mat13:38-39 .

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Joh6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil

Luk11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first



Mat13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels



Rom9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed



Gen3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,847
9,687
113
#3
I have found this particular doctrine hard to understand, so I would appreciate your views on this subject.
Once you see the context of election as applied to believers, you will note that children of God are elect ACCORDING TO GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE and that the purpose of election is not salvation but the perfection of the saints.

1 PETER 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


That word "salvation" does not mean the beginning of salvation (justification) but the end of salvation (glorification). Hence "ready to be revealed in the last time" which is a reference to the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints. It is then that all the saints will be glorified and perfected (1 Jn 3:1-3), and that is what election and predestination are all about. "To be conformed to the image of His Son".

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)

Since Christ died for all, and God desires the repentance and salvation of all humanity, it is impossible that He would elect some for salvation and others for damnation (reprobation).
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#4
Thank you very much Adhidw, for the thorough Biblical light you have shed.

I still have a problem finding the right response, to my Roman Catholic cousin who refuses to believe in a God who creates people knowing they have no chance at salvation. His view is, God cannot be a good God if He creates people who will spend eternity in hell. His argument is, that God wouldn't create such people without providing the possibility for salvation.

I struggle to give him an answer that satisfies him, I said that God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants and we don't have the right to question His will.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,847
9,687
113
#5
I struggle to give him an answer that satisfies him, I said that God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants and we don't have the right to question His will.
This is the Calvinistic idea of election, but it is not supported by Scripture.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#6
Once you see the context of election as applied to believers, you will note that children of God are elect ACCORDING TO GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE and that the purpose of election is not salvation but the perfection of the saints.

1 PETER 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


That word "salvation" does not mean the beginning of salvation (justification) but the end of salvation (glorification). Hence "ready to be revealed in the last time" which is a reference to the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints. It is then that all the saints will be glorified and perfected (1 Jn 3:1-3), and that is what election and predestination are all about. "To be conformed to the image of His Son".
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)

Since Christ died for all, and God desires the repentance and salvation of all humanity, it is impossible that He would elect some for salvation and others for damnation (reprobation).
I have joined a Reformed Baptist Church where the Elders teach election (predestination) and we believe the 5 points of Calvin. We believe a person is born dead in sin and only God can quicken a dead person. So we have nothing to do with our salvation, it's all by the grace of God through faith.

We are taught that no person would ever chose to give their life to Christ, unless God draws them. So I still struggle with the reprobate doctrine, but I believe the penny will drop and I will eventually understand it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,847
9,687
113
#7
I have joined a Reformed Baptist Church where the Elders teach election (predestination) and we believe the 5 points of Calvin.
That is rather unfortunate. But before you accept Five Point Calvinism hook, line and sinker, study Gospel truth right out of the New Testament.

I will give you just one passage which totally debunks Five Point Calvinism:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3;16,17)

"but that the world through him might be saved" -- this one clause in itself refutes the idea that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.

And before you allow anyone to fool you into thinking that "world" does not mean the whole world of humanity, check this out from Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖοςκόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21;
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#8
That is rather unfortunate. But before you accept Five Point Calvinism hook, line and sinker, study Gospel truth right out of the New Testament.

I will give you just one passage which totally debunks Five Point Calvinism:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3;16,17)

"but that the world through him might be saved" -- this one clause in itself refutes the idea that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.

And before you allow anyone to fool you into thinking that "world" does not mean the whole world of humanity, check this out from Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖοςκόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21;
Thanks Nehemiah6, there's a lot there to digest. I'll look at those verses using my "Matthew Henry's Commentary on the whole Bible" Book and see what it says, cheers
 
May 20, 2016
66
3
8
#9
Thank you very much Adhidw, for the thorough Biblical light you have shed.

I still have a problem finding the right response, to my Roman Catholic cousin who refuses to believe in a God who creates people knowing they have no chance at salvation. His view is, God cannot be a good God if He creates people who will spend eternity in hell. His argument is, that God wouldn't create such people without providing the possibility for salvation.

I struggle to give him an answer that satisfies him, I said that God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants and we don't have the right to question His will.
The problem within some of us actually is they refuse about the reality as the bible told us that mankind living in this earth consist of two kinds such : likened as vessel unto honour and vessel un to dishohour Rom9:21 all of them physically as human beings, there is no difference in literal, but when they are born , God as the potter put Spirit of human/ spiritually being /His chosen before the creation of the world / vessel of mercy Rom9:23 in to the vessel unto honnour Rom9:21, and didn’t put any human spirit within vessel unto dishonour Rom9:21 , so they become Born of God people/ physically chosen people( there is spirit of human inside them), and born of flesh people( there is no spirit of human inside them ) so to them are equated as animals Ecc3:19 , these are the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau even when they were still in the womb and not yet did anything -----> that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

By the existence of these such Esau ( without spirit of man inside when he was born because God didn’t put any human spirit inside them ), so the devils /vessels of wrath are possible one day to abide within them so there are devil that transform to be the angels of light, there are antichrist all of them are known as the children of the wicked one Mat13:38-39 , and by their existence the devils surely shall be judged in the last day judgment there surely will be obtained the evidences for suing the devils , unless the devils shall never be able to be judged, unless the saveds / the winners /us will never be able to judge the angels/devils 1Cor6:3 , unless this temporary earth will never end.

This temporary earth one day surely will not be found in its place Rev21:1.



Rev20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea

In this event :

Before devils are loosed, there are many undeceived people likened such sand of the sea, but after the devils are loosed these such sand of the sea instantly become deceived How can it be ?.

What is the reason that God loose the devils from prison ? if they all undeceived such sand of the sea actually have humans spirits that indeed God Himself who put them inside/ born of God surely it is a unreasonable event ( driven out such in Mark5:12 ), but from the information such this : when the thousand years are expired it means all His chosen/all names written in the book of life before the creation of the world ,have been sent well to sojourn to this earth and all of them also have been processed well whether win or lose , so these such the sand of the sea are all the born of flesh people like the people out side the ark in Noah age then surely the devil abide inside them. --------> then this temporary earth with the inhabitants surely will be vanished = the old earth surely end .
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#10
I have joined a Reformed Baptist Church where the Elders teach election (predestination) and we believe the 5 points of Calvin. We believe a person is born dead in sin and only God can quicken a dead person. So we have nothing to do with our salvation, it's all by the grace of God through faith.

We are taught that no person would ever chose to give their life to Christ, unless God draws them. So I still struggle with the reprobate doctrine, but I believe the penny will drop and I will eventually understand it.
Then you believe that you were regenerated to new life BEFORE you had faith in Christ. But the Bible teaches the just shall live by faith (their faith Hab 2:4) not before it.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#11
The problem within some of us actually is they refuse about the reality as the bible told us that mankind living in this earth consist of two kinds such : likened as vessel unto honour and vessel un to dishohour Rom9:21 all of them physically as human beings, there is no difference in literal, but when they are born , God as the potter put Spirit of human/ spiritually being /His chosen before the creation of the world / vessel of mercy Rom9:23 in to the vessel unto honnour Rom9:21, and didn’t put any human spirit within vessel unto dishonour Rom9:21 , so they become Born of God people/ physically chosen people( there is spirit of human inside them), and born of flesh people( there is no spirit of human inside them ) so to them are equated as animals Ecc3:19 , these are the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau even when they were still in the womb and not yet did anything -----> that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

By the existence of these such Esau ( without spirit of man inside when he was born because God didn’t put any human spirit inside them ), so the devils /vessels of wrath are possible one day to abide within them so there are devil that transform to be the angels of light, there are antichrist all of them are known as the children of the wicked one Mat13:38-39 , and by their existence the devils surely shall be judged in the last day judgment there surely will be obtained the evidences for suing the devils , unless the devils shall never be able to be judged, unless the saveds / the winners /us will never be able to judge the angels/devils 1Cor6:3 , unless this temporary earth will never end.

This temporary earth one day surely will not be found in its place Rev21:1.



Rev20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea

In this event :

Before devils are loosed, there are many undeceived people likened such sand of the sea, but after the devils are loosed these such sand of the sea instantly become deceived How can it be ?.

What is the reason that God loose the devils from prison ? if they all undeceived such sand of the sea actually have humans spirits that indeed God Himself who put them inside/ born of God surely it is a unreasonable event ( driven out such in Mark5:12 ), but from the information such this : when the thousand years are expired it means all His chosen/all names written in the book of life before the creation of the world ,have been sent well to sojourn to this earth and all of them also have been processed well whether win or lose , so these such the sand of the sea are all the born of flesh people like the people out side the ark in Noah age then surely the devil abide inside them. --------> then this temporary earth with the inhabitants surely will be vanished = the old earth surely end .
That is a bunch of rubbish. Romans ch 9 says no such thing about God not putting a human spirit into certain people.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#14
Then you believe that you were regenerated to new life BEFORE you had faith in Christ. But the Bible teaches the just shall live by faith (their faith Hab 2:4) not before it.
A man is regenerated to Christ at the same time as he truly believes in Christ. Both go together. Regeneration is God's side, responsive faith is our side.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#15
A man is regenerated to Christ at the same time as he truly believes in Christ. Both go together. Regeneration is God's side, responsive faith is our side.
Not in the Calvinist order of salvation. Look it up. Regeneration comes first before faith and repentance.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
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#17
LOL I am not interested in your version of calvinism, but in the truth.
It is not my version that is why I told you to look it up. Calvinism is so screwed up in that a Satanist can be regenerated to new life in Christ right in the middle of performing a human sacrifice.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#18
LOL I am not interested in your version of calvinism, but in the truth.
It is impossible to be regenerated and not believe. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated. THINK about it.

God works faith in the one who is regerated
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#20
It is impossible to be regenerated and not believe. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated. THINK about it.

God works faith in the one who is regerated
I thank God that He chose me before the foundation of the world.