The doctrine of election and reprobation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
Nobody is predestined for salvation. Once they hear the gospel, anyone can freely choose to believe it. That's the reason we are to share the gospel, to give people the chance to hear, to give them the opportunity to believe.

Christianity was predestined, not individual Christians. The Father gives to Jesus all those who choose to believe.
Could you please present a Bible verse to support that view, that individuals are not predestined to salvation
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
462
83
Could you please present a Bible verse to support that view, that individuals are not predestined to salvation
Eph 1:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Those verses are talking about Christianity, not individual Christians.

God's will is for all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).

If those things are God's will (they are..), then why will not everyone be saved? Because they choose not to believe.

God gave men free will, the free will ability to choose.

(I am not a Calvinist, can you tell? :) )
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
Eph 1:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Those verses are talking about Christianity, not individual Christians.

God's will is for all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).

If those things are God's will (they are..), then why will not everyone be saved? Because they choose not to believe.

God gave men free will, the free will ability to choose.

(I am not a Calvinist, can you tell? :) )
Thanks for those verses, the Calvinist would just as quickly point out verses that support his views. I don't think that either view would damn a person or cause them to lost their salvation, so it may one of those issues where we can agree to disagree and still remain Gods children
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
Nobody is predestined for salvation. Once they hear the gospel, anyone can freely choose to believe it. That's the reason we are to share the gospel, to give people the chance to hear, to give them the opportunity to believe.

Christianity was predestined, not individual Christians. The Father gives to Jesus all those who choose to believe.
Why is this so hard to understand.. It is like God is taking something away from you???? God has already seen in eternity past what you will do with your free will. This He foreknown and predestined. SO, if you are of the mind to change, go ahead, He probably did not predestine you anyway. If on the other hand, you are a True Christian, then He Predestined you and called out to you in one form or the other. Either way, it was your free will that got you there.

Again, If you feel that you have been cheated out of your free-will, Feel free to exercise your FREE-WILL and tell HIM you do not need him.

Good luck on that one?

Blade
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
Thanks for those verses, the Calvinist would just as quickly point out verses that support his views. I don't think that either view would damn a person or cause them to lost their salvation, so it may one of those issues where we can agree to disagree and still remain Gods children
Martk Williams...You are right; Armenians and Calvinist are in the same camp but disagree about this Free-WIll. Both love GOD and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 COR 15:1-4
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
462
83
Why is this so hard to understand.. It is like God is taking something away from you???? God has already seen in eternity past what you will do with your free will. This He foreknown and predestined. SO, if you are of the mind to change, go ahead, He probably did not predestine you anyway. If on the other hand, you are a True Christian, then He Predestined you and called out to you in one form or the other. Either way, it was your free will that got you there.

Again, If you feel that you have been cheated out of your free-will, Feel free to exercise your FREE-WILL and tell HIM you do not need him.

Good luck on that one?

Blade
Where did this come from? Having a bad day? :)

I never said God is taking anything away from me. I never said I was cheated out of free will. Why would I tell God I do not need him?
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
So would you agree that only God knows who the reprobate are, and who the elect are and there's no way for us mortals to know for sure
I agree to a point. We do not know for sure about the next person salvation status but should know our own status.. If one does not know, then they got big problems they need to work out real quick.

However, even the most hardened criminal and/or sinner can change their mind and accept Jesus as their lord and savior anytime prior to their demise even if it is a few seconds before. For after death, there is no choice to be made. You are sealed from that point onward.

Blade

 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
Where did this come from? Having a bad day? :)

I never said God is taking anything away from me. I never said I was cheated out of free will. Why would I tell God I do not need him?
Shrume...Chill...I was not talking to or about you. This is the part of an argument that gets people's attention. As it did in you!!!!

There are those that use this Free-Will scenario to lead people away from GOD. "He is taking your FREE-WILL away from you and is either 'saving' you or 'trashing' you." I have seen it play out before.

My apologies for being blunt to the point.

Blade
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
462
83
Shrume...Chill...I was not talking to or about you. This is the part of an argument that gets people's attention. As it did in you!!!!
Hey, I'm cool as a cucumber. :)

And just to remind you, your post was a direct response to me, to what I posted.

There are those that use this Free-Will scenario to lead people away from GOD. "He is taking your FREE-WILL away from you and is either 'saving' you or 'trashing' you." I have seen it play out before.
I don't see how understanding that God gave us free will can lead people away from God.

My apologies for being blunt to the point.
No problem... I'm frequently blunt myself. :)
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
Hey, I'm cool as a cucumber. :)

And just to remind you, your post was a direct response to me, to what I posted.


I don't see how understanding that God gave us free will can lead people away from God.


No problem... I'm frequently blunt myself. :)
It is not the "giving " of the Free-WIll that is the problem... It is the taking away. When people (You)[And just to remind you, your post was a direct response to me, to what I posted. , lol...or should I say 'Youall' lol)] are told that if you are predestined then God is taking away your free-will for once you are in his hands, he will not lose you. In other words, you will not use your free will and go away from God at that point. It was foreseen that you would not.

Blade
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
Eph 1:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Those verses are talking about Christianity, not individual Christians.
Well are not Christians which are people or a person associated with that of Christianity ?
Likewise the verses in Rev. 13:8 & 17:8 conveys the same idea, names of people but each of the names represents a person.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
Yes I believe once TRULY saved always saved, but how can we know if we are truly saved. That's the worry I have
I would say when you know what you are saved from.

I was referring to those who Jesus described on the last day, that came to Him saying Lord, Lord thinking they were saved only to find that they have been fooling themselves all along.
Are you referring unto the passage in Luke 13?

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate:
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
As a Calvinist I believe we receive the whole package deal at the point of conversion, not only faith but all the other components as well in a moment of time
I would say when you know what you are saved from.



Are you referring unto the passage in Luke 13?

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate:
I meant those who came to Jesus saying, Lord, Lord have we not done great things in your Name. Healed the sick, cast out demons and he will say, depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. It sure sounds like He was speaking to professing believers, who were actually unbelievers
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
It sure sounds like He was speaking to professing believers, who were actually unbelievers
Wouldn't that be those who don't know what the term 'Lord, Lord' was referring unto?
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Give us one single verse that supports election for salvation WITHOUT distorting the meaning.
There's an old story that goes: "It's like trying to describe a "war zone", to someone who has never been in a war zone."

Each one who has been in a war zone describes it differently. Yet? All descriptions are true and factual. Yet? A person to whom one is trying to describe a war zone to, that has not been in a war zone? Hears a description from one "vet", then hears another description from another vet, which isn't "precisely" the description from the first vet. The "hearer" believes the first description, yet accuses the 2nd describer as "distorting" the meaning!

Just who is telling the truth, and who was distorting the meaning? Neither were telling the truth? Both were distorting the meaning?

This is an updated version of what Paul was trying to convey, when he used the analogy of "Looking through a dark glass dimly, when trying to describe God's "Spiritual Kingdom."

To the one who has not "seen" the Spiritual Kingdom? NO Explanation is possible!
To the one who has "seen" the Spiritual Kingdom? No Explanation is needed!

Now, having said this? The posts that I put here in CC, are My experiences, and arguments of my "born from above" inwards "self", in the converting/convincing/persuading of my outwards self. In the hopes, that "peals of truth" may resonate, from "my bell" with someone going through a "war zone." So that someone else going through something similiar, may not become dismayed, nor dissuaded, in thier own "thirstings" along their own "perfecting", or maturing of, and in the Spirit.

Or, in other words? Hopefully, by the words of my testamonying, they may be comforted in their own grafting process, from those who tend to limit the scope, and authority, of our Heavenly Father, by not merely putting themselves, in a box, but God too!

This is not to say, that God's love does not "protect" those, whom He KNOWS may not handle said "war zone." But, on the other hand? Although, being considered a "general concensus", or "normal behavior" in the accepting of the description of the "war zone?" Any descriptions, by "vets" (and yes, you may consider these as having been "predestined"), are seen as "distorting the meaning."

This may be my last posting in CC. Not for my sake. But, more for everyone in here, and may come here in the future. Because, I certainly have (for lack of a better analogy) a "habit" of attracting the enemies of the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Light, like so many flies to sugar! Case in point! Do you think the Cosa Nostra, which originated in Scicily, which is situated close to Rome, which has "tattered to shreds" the Catholic Church, was an "accident?" Flies to sugar people!....Flies to sugar!
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
153
63
I believe Jesus when He said He would lose none of those the Father gave Him. He said nobody would snatch them out of His hand
But that wasn't the point. A Calvinist doesn't know if he is really one of the few God has elected. You can be a good person and read the Bible, call Jesus "Lord", but in the end it was all for nothing. The Calvinist God let's those he prepared for destruction fool themselves into thinking they believe yet are the tares among wheat.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I still think there's a component of mystery around this question. There are some things we just can't know for sure and only God knows them and I believe this is one of them

well I find your response to my post somewhat 'mysterious' LOL! I am really not quite certain what it is you are saying

flesh it out if you want or not...either way

thanks
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
153
63
Hi Blade, thanks for that. The point of contention was, how to answer a person who asks why God created people who would have no chance of salvation.
They were, strictly speaking created to be cast into ever lasting punishment and they never stood a chance of salvation. They never had the option to repent and have their sins forgiven, I need to know how to answer that accurately and Biblicaly
You can't because it isn't Biblical. This is Biblical:
The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
2 Peter 3:9 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/2pe.3.9.NLT
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
153
63
Thanks for those verses, the Calvinist would just as quickly point out verses that support his views. I don't think that either view would damn a person or cause them to lost their salvation, so it may one of those issues where we can agree to disagree and still remain Gods children
But the Calvinist has to perform hermeneutical contortions with his verses.