The errors of Augustine of Hippo.

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S

Scotth1960

Guest
#1
Friends, The errors of Augustine of Hippo. (From Hans Kung's book, q.v.):
"Augustine felt that Pelagianism touched on the weak spot of his experience, indeed struck at the heart of his faith. After all, through the wearisome years before his conversion he had experienced in his tie to a woman who bore him a son how weak his will was, how strong was fleshly desire (concupiscentia carnis) culminating in sexual pleasure, and how human beings thus need the grace of God from beginning to end for their conversion. In his intimate poetic Confessions he described the grace which must be given to sinful man wholly and utterly by God. Here Augustine referred in a new way the the Pauline message of justification, which had lost all topicality as a result of the disappearance of Jewish Christianity and the Greek concentration on the divinization of human beings. Indeed, he put the theme of grace at the center of Western theology.
"But the battle against the Pelagians had epoch-making consequences. For in the zeal of battle Augustine sharpened and narrowed down his theology of sin and grace. He now attempted to explain the sin, "in whom [instead of after whose example] all human beings sin." That is a downright mistranslation of Romans 5:12. In this way Augustine historicized, psychologized, indeed sexulized Adam's primal sin. For him, in complete contrast to Paul, it became original sin, which was determined sexually. For according to Augustine this original sin was transmitted to every new human being through the sexual act and the fleshly, that is, self-centered desire (concupiscence) connected with it. Therefore, according to this theology every infant has already fallen victim to eternal death -- unless it has been baptized.
"The consequence is that Augustine, who more than any author of antiquity had a brilliant capacity for analytical self-reflection, bequeathed to the whole Catholic Church of the West the doctrine of original sin, which was unknown in the East, and at the same time a fatal vilification of sexuality, the sexual libido. Sexual pleasure for its own sake (and not for the procreation of children) was sinful and to be suppressed -- to the present day this remains the baneful teaching of the Roman pope.
"At the same time Augustine also took over another pernicious myth, from the dualistic sect of the Manichees. This sect, to which he belonged for a while in his youth, was hostile to the body and held that only a relatively small number of human beings were predestined for bliss (to make good the gap which had come into being through the fall of the angels). The others were a "mass of perdition." This cruel doctrine of a double predestination (the predestination of some to bliss and others to damnation) was at the opposite pole to Origen's teaching about a universal reconciliation to be hoped for at the end. In Western Christianity it would similarly have an insidious effect and disseminate an infinite amount of anxiety about salvation and fear of demons -- down to the Reformers Luther and Calvin, who would consistently think this teaching through to the end." (The Catholic Church: A Short History; pp. 48-49.).

Friends,
We should reject Augustine of Hippo's anti-sexual message. For those who can receive the gift of marriage, sexuality is a gift, not a burden. For those who receive gift to be celibate, that is a gift, not a burden, either. All should live in peace and the grace of God, whether married or unmarried. All can receive the grace of forgiveness of sexual sins. Christ is merciful. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Regarding the Filioque heresy, which is a great error, too, Augustine not only had a distorted and pessimistic view of human sexuality, he also denied that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, in opposition to John 15:26. While he did not teach it as dogma in his book "De Trinitate", it became a dogma in the West, and it was even declared by Thomas Aquinas in his polemic anti-Orthodox book "Contra Errores Graecorum", to be "necessary for salvation". The Orthodox Church, in truth of Christ, however, considers the doctrine of Filioque to be anathema, and does not come from Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington:

"THE TRINITY REINTERPRETED
"For many years Augustine worked indefatigably on a great work of his old age, without being prompted to it by a heresy but rather out of an inner need for clarification: he was concerned to present a deeper, more convincing reinterpretation of the doctrine of the Trinity. His interpretation would come to command such a following in the Latin West that people would hardly be aware of any other. But to the present day it is resolutely rejected by the Greeks. Why?
"The Greek church fathers always began from the one God and Father, who for them, as for the New Testament, was "the God" (ho theos). They defined the relationship of God the Father to the Son and the Spirit in the light of this one God and Father. It is as if we have a star which gives light to a second star ("light of light, God of God") and finally to a third. But to our human eye, all three stars appear one after the other only as one star.
"Augustine differed completely: instead of beginning from one God and Father he began from the one nature of God, or divine substance, which ws common to Father, Son, and Spirit. For the Latin theologians the principle of unity was not the Father but the one divine nature, or substance. To develop the illustration given earlier: three stars do not shine one after the other but side by side in a triangle at the same level; there the first and the second stars together give light to the third.
"To explain more precisely, Augustine used psychological categories in a new way; he saw a similarity between the threefold God and the three-dimensional human spirit between the Father and the memory, between the Son and the intelligence, and between the Spirit and the will. In the light of this analogy the Trinity could be interpreted as follows.
"The Son is "begotten" from the Father "according to the intellect." The Father knows and begets in the Son his own word and image. But the Spirit "proceeds" from the Father (as the lover) and the Son (as the beloved) "according to the will." The Spirit is the love between Father and Son become person: it has proceeded from both the Father and the Son. (It was the Latin term denoting this proceeding also from the Son, Filioque, which proved to be the great stumbling block for the Greeks. Their view was that the Spirit proceeded only from the Father.)
"Thus Augustine had made an intellectual construction of the Trinity with philosophical and psychological categories in an extremely subtle way as a self-unfolding of God. Here the "and the Son" seemed so essential thatin the West from the sixth/seventh century it was gradually inserted into the creed. Time and again it was required by the German emperors after Charlemagne, and in 1014 it was definitively inserted by Rome into the ancient creed. But even today the East still regards this Filioque as a falsification of the old ecumenical creed and as clear heresy. However, similarly, to the present day those Catholic and Protestant dogmatic theologicans of the West who attempt to make what is claimed to be the central dogma of Christianity credible to their contemporaries with every possible modernization and new argument (usually in vain) hardly seem to be aware that they are interpreting the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit not so much in the light of the New Testament as in the light of Augustine."
(pages 49-51: Hans Kung. The Catholic Church: A Short History. Translated by John Bowden. New York: The Modern Library, 2001.).

The Filioque implies that God the Father is the one who unites with God the Son to produce another Son, God the Holy Spirit, and thus the Holy Spirit is the Divine Grandson of God the Father Who is really God the Grandfather. This is the erotic misinterpretation of God's relationship of the three Persons of the Trinity in Augustine of Hippo's psychologized (psycho-sexual) matrix. Clear heresy. God is a Spirit. Jesus was a celibate monk. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#2
Friends, The errors of Augustine of Hippo. (From Hans Kung's book, q.v.):
"Augustine felt that Pelagianism touched on the weak spot of his experience, indeed struck at the heart of his faith. After all, through the wearisome years before his conversion he had experienced in his tie to a woman who bore him a son how weak his will was, how strong was fleshly desire (concupiscentia carnis) culminating in sexual pleasure, and how human beings thus need the grace of God from beginning to end for their conversion. In his intimate poetic Confessions he described the grace which must be given to sinful man wholly and utterly by God. Here Augustine referred in a new way the the Pauline message of justification, which had lost all topicality as a result of the disappearance of Jewish Christianity and the Greek concentration on the divinization of human beings. Indeed, he put the theme of grace at the center of Western theology.
"But the battle against the Pelagians had epoch-making consequences. For in the zeal of battle Augustine sharpened and narrowed down his theology of sin and grace. He now attempted to explain the sin, "in whom [instead of after whose example] all human beings sin." That is a downright mistranslation of Romans 5:12. In this way Augustine historicized, psychologized, indeed sexulized Adam's primal sin. For him, in complete contrast to Paul, it became original sin, which was determined sexually. For according to Augustine this original sin was transmitted to every new human being through the sexual act and the fleshly, that is, self-centered desire (concupiscence) connected with it. Therefore, according to this theology every infant has already fallen victim to eternal death -- unless it has been baptized.
"The consequence is that Augustine, who more than any author of antiquity had a brilliant capacity for analytical self-reflection, bequeathed to the whole Catholic Church of the West the doctrine of original sin, which was unknown in the East, and at the same time a fatal vilification of sexuality, the sexual libido. Sexual pleasure for its own sake (and not for the procreation of children) was sinful and to be suppressed -- to the present day this remains the baneful teaching of the Roman pope.
"At the same time Augustine also took over another pernicious myth, from the dualistic sect of the Manichees. This sect, to which he belonged for a while in his youth, was hostile to the body and held that only a relatively small number of human beings were predestined for bliss (to make good the gap which had come into being through the fall of the angels). The others were a "mass of perdition." This cruel doctrine of a double predestination (the predestination of some to bliss and others to damnation) was at the opposite pole to Origen's teaching about a universal reconciliation to be hoped for at the end. In Western Christianity it would similarly have an insidious effect and disseminate an infinite amount of anxiety about salvation and fear of demons -- down to the Reformers Luther and Calvin, who would consistently think this teaching through to the end." (The Catholic Church: A Short History; pp. 48-49.).

Friends,
We should reject Augustine of Hippo's anti-sexual message. For those who can receive the gift of marriage, sexuality is a gift, not a burden. For those who receive gift to be celibate, that is a gift, not a burden, either. All should live in peace and the grace of God, whether married or unmarried. All can receive the grace of forgiveness of sexual sins. Christ is merciful. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Regarding the Filioque heresy, which is a great error, too, Augustine not only had a distorted and pessimistic view of human sexuality, he also denied that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, in opposition to John 15:26. While he did not teach it as dogma in his book "De Trinitate", it became a dogma in the West, and it was even declared by Thomas Aquinas in his polemic anti-Orthodox book "Contra Errores Graecorum", to be "necessary for salvation". The Orthodox Church, in truth of Christ, however, considers the doctrine of Filioque to be anathema, and does not come from Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington:

"THE TRINITY REINTERPRETED
"For many years Augustine worked indefatigably on a great work of his old age, without being prompted to it by a heresy but rather out of an inner need for clarification: he was concerned to present a deeper, more convincing reinterpretation of the doctrine of the Trinity. His interpretation would come to command such a following in the Latin West that people would hardly be aware of any other. But to the present day it is resolutely rejected by the Greeks. Why?
"The Greek church fathers always began from the one God and Father, who for them, as for the New Testament, was "the God" (ho theos). They defined the relationship of God the Father to the Son and the Spirit in the light of this one God and Father. It is as if we have a star which gives light to a second star ("light of light, God of God") and finally to a third. But to our human eye, all three stars appear one after the other only as one star.
"Augustine differed completely: instead of beginning from one God and Father he began from the one nature of God, or divine substance, which ws common to Father, Son, and Spirit. For the Latin theologians the principle of unity was not the Father but the one divine nature, or substance. To develop the illustration given earlier: three stars do not shine one after the other but side by side in a triangle at the same level; there the first and the second stars together give light to the third.
"To explain more precisely, Augustine used psychological categories in a new way; he saw a similarity between the threefold God and the three-dimensional human spirit between the Father and the memory, between the Son and the intelligence, and between the Spirit and the will. In the light of this analogy the Trinity could be interpreted as follows.
"The Son is "begotten" from the Father "according to the intellect." The Father knows and begets in the Son his own word and image. But the Spirit "proceeds" from the Father (as the lover) and the Son (as the beloved) "according to the will." The Spirit is the love between Father and Son become person: it has proceeded from both the Father and the Son. (It was the Latin term denoting this proceeding also from the Son, Filioque, which proved to be the great stumbling block for the Greeks. Their view was that the Spirit proceeded only from the Father.)
"Thus Augustine had made an intellectual construction of the Trinity with philosophical and psychological categories in an extremely subtle way as a self-unfolding of God. Here the "and the Son" seemed so essential thatin the West from the sixth/seventh century it was gradually inserted into the creed. Time and again it was required by the German emperors after Charlemagne, and in 1014 it was definitively inserted by Rome into the ancient creed. But even today the East still regards this Filioque as a falsification of the old ecumenical creed and as clear heresy. However, similarly, to the present day those Catholic and Protestant dogmatic theologicans of the West who attempt to make what is claimed to be the central dogma of Christianity credible to their contemporaries with every possible modernization and new argument (usually in vain) hardly seem to be aware that they are interpreting the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit not so much in the light of the New Testament as in the light of Augustine."
(pages 49-51: Hans Kung. The Catholic Church: A Short History. Translated by John Bowden. New York: The Modern Library, 2001.).

The Filioque implies that God the Father is the one who unites with God the Son to produce another Son, God the Holy Spirit, and thus the Holy Spirit is the Divine Grandson of God the Father Who is really God the Grandfather. This is the erotic misinterpretation of God's relationship of the three Persons of the Trinity in Augustine of Hippo's psychologized (psycho-sexual) matrix. Clear heresy. God is a Spirit. Jesus was a celibate monk. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
How do you have time to do the work God asks of you if you spemd so much time reading up on all this theiology? Wouldn't it be closer to Christ's teachings to spend your time ministering to the poor and needy rather than reading and discussing these theologies?
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#3
How do you have time to do the work God asks of you if you spemd so much time reading up on all this theiology? Wouldn't it be closer to Christ's teachings to spend your time ministering to the poor and needy rather than reading and discussing these theologies?
I am poor and needy. How will I do that?
What's your point? It's good to do what you say, if God calls you to do that. One shouldn't attempt to do anything without God's help. We can't save ourselves. Not every Christian needs to open a soup kitchen, right? Every Christian has a different spiritual gift. All Christians are equal in Christ.



 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#4
I am poor and needy. How will I do that?
What's your point? It's good to do what you say, if God calls you to do that. One shouldn't attempt to do anything without God's help. We can't save ourselves. Not every Christian needs to open a soup kitchen, right? Every Christian has a different spiritual gift. All Christians are equal in Christ.
So what is your spiritual gift? And what does God require of you? To read endlessly concernig theologians in history and to point out their errors in doctrine?
I would have thought that was a mnisters job
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#5
So what is your spiritual gift? And what does God require of you? To read endlessly concernig theologians in history and to point out their errors in doctrine?
I would have thought that was a mnisters job
I'm just a layman. That's my gift. To be a layman who reads. I'm not trying to do anything but share ideas. Disagree or agree with me if your will. If your intention toward me isn't hostile, fine, I don't take things personally. Isn't every Christian a minister, called to know and love the truth, and live by it. Isn't our speech supposed to based on a knowledge of the Scriptures?

 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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0
#6
I'm just a layman. That's my gift. To be a layman who reads. I'm not trying to do anything but share ideas. Disagree or agree with me if your will. If your intention toward me isn't hostile, fine, I don't take things personally. Isn't every Christian a minister, called to know and love the truth, and live by it. Isn't our speech supposed to based on a knowledge of the Scriptures?
#
My belief is that roughly 90% of people on cc and other Christian websites see themselves as teachers of the word to others on these websites, which kind of leaves the other 10% swamped, wouldn't you agree?
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#7
#

My belief is that roughly 90% of people on cc and other

Christian websites see themselves as teachers of the word to

others on these websites, which kind of leaves the other 10%

swamped, wouldn't you agree?
I think if we had 2 weeks of 8 hour days to just sit down and

talk, and read the Scriptures together, we would probably

agree on 95 percent of doctrines, unless you are a Calvinist. I

find that Calvinists are difficult people sometimes, at least

the ones who really believe in double predestination: it's

difficult to show them how this misrepresents the character of

God and the illogic of saying that God is the cause of

everything, or of insisting that God can't be totally sovereign

unless He is the cause of everything. That's a non sequitur

and doesn't follow from the Bible's definition of God's

sovereignty: His Sovereignty isn't separate or detached from

His Mercy and His Goodness (Holiness). Anyway, if you're

not Calvinist, maybe we agree on most doctrines. If you

accept the Nicene Creed, maybe we agree on 95 percent of

Triadology (Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity), and on

Christology (Christian doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ:

Divinity and humanity). Where we might differ is in personal

experiences, and in our experience of Church or

denomination. My background is liberal mainline American

Evangelical Lutheran and conservative evangelical American

Pentecostal-charismatic Assemblies of God. My journey has

led me to the doors of the Russian Orthodox Church. I have

only begun to attend ROC. I haven't become an Orthodox

Christian yet.

All I can do for the winter season is chat. When I get back to

Church, I'll sign off of this site, and just learn from the

Church. And stop talking on Orthodoxy. I experience more of

Orthodoxy in attending Church than in writing to sites like

this.

We can agree on 90 to 95 percent of theology if you are

neither Calvinist nor Arminian

do not believe in Sola Scriptura

do not believe in Sola Fide or in salvation by works alone

do not believe in Filioque

do not believe in papal infallibility

believe there are 7 sacraments and not merely 2

are not Nestorian, Arian, or Monophysite, or Sabellian

are aware of ancient heresies and how the Church refuted

them all

do not rely upon Augustine of Hippo for your major source of

Christian theology

want to be a mere Christian, and avoid majoring on minors

believe that most of what a Christian believes about doctrine

can be summed up in the Nicene Creed of 381 AD which is

without Filioque

believe salvation is by God's grace and mercy in Christ only,

and not because anything we can merit or be worthy of. God

saves. The whole faith versus works controversy

is moot, because the early Church believed both faith and

works are a part of the salvation process/journey


believe all people are basically sinful, but can overcome their

sins and find true forgiveness by God's grace and mercy,

because God so loved the world (John 3:16), and not just the

elect (God wants all men to be saved (2 Peter 3:9). but few

people may find the way to eternal life: but it's for God alone

to say who will finally be saved.

God have mercy on all of us. That's a common prayer we all

can pray. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington March 2011 AD

 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#8
I think if we had 2 weeks of 8 hour days to just sit down and

talk, and read the Scriptures together, we would probably

agree on 95 percent of doctrines, unless you are a Calvinist. I

find that Calvinists are difficult people sometimes, at least

the ones who really believe in double predestination: it's

difficult to show them how this misrepresents the character of

God and the illogic of saying that God is the cause of

everything, or of insisting that God can't be totally sovereign

unless He is the cause of everything. That's a non sequitur

and doesn't follow from the Bible's definition of God's

sovereignty: His Sovereignty isn't separate or detached from

His Mercy and His Goodness (Holiness). Anyway, if you're

not Calvinist, maybe we agree on most doctrines. If you

accept the Nicene Creed, maybe we agree on 95 percent of

Triadology (Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity), and on

Christology (Christian doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ:

Divinity and humanity). Where we might differ is in personal

experiences, and in our experience of Church or

denomination. My background is liberal mainline American

Evangelical Lutheran and conservative evangelical American

Pentecostal-charismatic Assemblies of God. My journey has

led me to the doors of the Russian Orthodox Church. I have

only begun to attend ROC. I haven't become an Orthodox

Christian yet.

All I can do for the winter season is chat. When I get back to

Church, I'll sign off of this site, and just learn from the

Church. And stop talking on Orthodoxy. I experience more of

Orthodoxy in attending Church than in writing to sites like

this.

We can agree on 90 to 95 percent of theology if you are

neither Calvinist nor Arminian

do not believe in Sola Scriptura

do not believe in Sola Fide or in salvation by works alone

do not believe in Filioque

do not believe in papal infallibility

believe there are 7 sacraments and not merely 2

are not Nestorian, Arian, or Monophysite, or Sabellian

are aware of ancient heresies and how the Church refuted

them all

do not rely upon Augustine of Hippo for your major source of

Christian theology

want to be a mere Christian, and avoid majoring on minors

believe that most of what a Christian believes about doctrine

can be summed up in the Nicene Creed of 381 AD which is

without Filioque

believe salvation is by God's grace and mercy in Christ only,

and not because anything we can merit or be worthy of. God

saves. The whole faith versus works controversy

is moot, because the early Church believed both faith and

works are a part of the salvation process/journey


believe all people are basically sinful, but can overcome their

sins and find true forgiveness by God's grace and mercy,

because God so loved the world (John 3:16), and not just the

elect (God wants all men to be saved (2 Peter 3:9). but few

people may find the way to eternal life: but it's for God alone

to say who will finally be saved.

God have mercy on all of us. That's a common prayer we all

can pray. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington March 2011 AD
I believe Jesus is the son of God, that he died for my sins on the cross and that if I repent of my sin and ask him into my life as Lord and saviour and believe on him I have eternal life
I believe i am not under law but under grace through faith, and because of this sin shall not be my master and I may live more as God would have me live
n
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#9
I believe Jesus is the son of God, that he died for my sins on the cross and that if I repent of my sin and ask him into my life as Lord and saviour and believe on him I have eternal life
I believe i am not under law but under grace through faith, and because of this sin shall not be my master and I may live more as God would have me live
n
Amen. I believe the same thing, living by grace.

:)
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#10
Amen. I believe the same thing, living by grace.
:)
I am heartened to hear that you do

I have one more question. I believe that Christ is the son of God but not God Himself. In your opinion, does that belief bar me from having eternal life?
 
D

dmdave17

Guest
#11
believe Jesus is the son of God, that he died for my sins on the cross and that if I repent of my sin and ask him into my life as Lord and saviour and believe on him I have eternal life
I believe i am not under law but under grace through faith, and because of this sin shall not be my master and I may live more as God would have me live ... by livingbygrace

Amen. I believe the same thing, living by grace. ... by scotth1960

Way to "bottom line" it for us, guys. :)
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#12
I am heartened to hear that you do

I have one more question. I believe that Christ is the son of God but not God

Himself. In your opinion, does that belief bar me from having eternal

life?



I ask you this. How could God have a human Son Who is not God Himself?

None of us are "sons of God" in the same exact sense that Jesus Christ is "the

Son of God", would you agree. What do you do with the rest of the NT, which

affirms "Jesus Christ is LORD". Who is the LORD, but GOD? Are you going to

say that Christ didn't claim to be God in the 4 Gospels? What did He say when

He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM". And He said,"I and the Father are

One". And don't you read how the Pharisees all sought to stone and to kill

Jesus, and that eventually, the Pharisees got their wish, with the help of the

pagan Romans, and Christ was killed, was crucified, like a common criminal or

thief. The Pharisees believed Christ had blasphemed, and made Himself equal

with God. Those are the very words in the Gospel, "making Himself equal with

God". That's what the unbelieving Jews accused Jesus Christ of! How can

you believe Christ is the Son of God, and not believe He is God the Son? The

two words mean the SAME THING: SON OF GOD/ GOD THE SON.

Jesus' RESURRECTION from the DEAD proves that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD

MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.


God resurrected Christ because Christ is Divine, not merely human. At

Christ's Priestly prayer, Lazarus was raised from the dead. How could a mere

man raise anyone from the dead? Not unless God was with Him, and He was

God manifest in the flesh. Anyway, if you believe Christ is the Son of God, but

not God the Son, your creed is something like that, perhaps, of the Jehovah's

Witnesses. Maybe you aren't Jehovah's Witness. Do you believe there was

ever a time when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did not exist. If Christ existed

in heaven with the Father before He was born as the Son of God, then Christ

is God! Take care. The Holy Spirit is also God (Acts 5). The Father is God. The

Son is God. The Trinity. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#13
I ask you this. How could God have a human Son Who is not God Himself?

None of us are "sons of God" in the same exact sense that Jesus Christ is "the

Son of God", would you agree. What do you do with the rest of the NT, which

affirms "Jesus Christ is LORD". Who is the LORD, but GOD? Are you going to

say that Christ didn't claim to be God in the 4 Gospels? What did He say when

He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM". And He said,"I and the Father are

One". And don't you read how the Pharisees all sought to stone and to kill

Jesus, and that eventually, the Pharisees got their wish, with the help of the

pagan Romans, and Christ was killed, was crucified, like a common criminal or

thief. The Pharisees believed Christ had blasphemed, and made Himself equal

with God. Those are the very words in the Gospel, "making Himself equal with

God". That's what the unbelieving Jews accused Jesus Christ of! How can

you believe Christ is the Son of God, and not believe He is God the Son? The

two words mean the SAME THING: SON OF GOD/ GOD THE SON.

Jesus' RESURRECTION from the DEAD proves that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD

MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.


God resurrected Christ because Christ is Divine, not merely human. At

Christ's Priestly prayer, Lazarus was raised from the dead. How could a mere

man raise anyone from the dead? Not unless God was with Him, and He was

God manifest in the flesh. Anyway, if you believe Christ is the Son of God, but

not God the Son, your creed is something like that, perhaps, of the Jehovah's

Witnesses. Maybe you aren't Jehovah's Witness. Do you believe there was

ever a time when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did not exist. If Christ existed

in heaven with the Father before He was born as the Son of God, then Christ

is God! Take care. The Holy Spirit is also God (Acts 5). The Father is God. The

Son is God. The Trinity. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
You are evading the question

I believe Christ is the son of God, but not God Himself. In your opinion does this belief bar me from having eternal life. It is a simple question that requires a simple answer. Yes or no

And a true Christian would answer forthrightly and not hedge, but have the courage of his convictions and clearly state what he believes
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#14
You are evading the question

I believe Christ is the son of God, but not God Himself. In your opinion does this belief bar me from having eternal life. It is a simple question that requires a simple answer. Yes or no

And a true Christian would answer forthrightly and not hedge, but have the courage of his convictions and clearly state what he believes

If you don't believe Christ is God, that's heresy. Heresy is incompatible with receiving eternal life. Of course you should ask Christ whether He is God. You will get the answer from Him, "I AM THAT I AM". Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I AM". If that doesn't convince you that Christ is LORD, search all the NT Scriptures, and search Biblegateway.com in the KJV and put in the phrase Jesus is Lord. (Yes, you do need to believe that Christ is God Himself. He is not the Father, He is not the Holy Spirit. He is God the Son). You will get all the proof that you should need that the Bible says Jesus is God. And yes, to be saved, that is one of the doctrine which you need to believe in order to be saved. That is my conviction, and God has convicted me that Christ is God. Being saved isn't static; it's a journey. And no one is damned until after they die; they continue in unbelief, God may condemn them. People have a chance to repent and believe Christ is Lord until the day that the die. And Christians need to obey Christ and endure until the end of life in order to be saved.
Christ is God, and He alone is going to have the final judgment of who is or is not saved. Christ will say the truth on the last day.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#15
I agree. Augustine had ridiculously far-reaching influence upon crucial doctrine, and virtually none of it was good. I don't particularly care for Origen, either.
 
Jan 16, 2011
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#16
I am heartened to hear that you do

I have one more question. I believe that Christ is the son of God but not God Himself. In your opinion, does that belief bar me from having eternal life?
Hi Living by Grace,

IMHO - No, of course not. No way does your belief bar you from having eternal life.
Further, I simply can't think of any reason, theological or otherwise, why it should bar you.

- Jaynee
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#17
Hi Living by Grace,

IMHO - No, of course not. No way does your belief bar you from having eternal life.
Further, I simply can't think of any reason, theological or otherwise, why it should bar you.

- Jaynee
Hallelujah

A scriptural response

Thank you Jaynee
 
Jan 14, 2010
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#18
for the record, Jesus Christ is God... He's just not God the Father

think of it this way:

an apple has three parts to it...
the skin
the white fruit
the seeds

all three of these make up one whole apple, but they are not identical to one another...
the skin is not the white fruit, but it is part of the apple
the white fruit is not the seeds, but it is part of the apple
the seeds are not the skin, but it is part of the apple

the same goes for God...
God the Son is not God the Father, but is still God
God the Father is not God the Holy Spirit, but is still God
God the Holy Spirit is not God the Son, but is still God
 
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Feb 23, 2011
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Doesn't anybody else get tired of all these wholly-inadequate all-corporeal analogies for God?

Apples, eggs, peanuts, H2O...

All of them have material composition. Other than the Incarnate Word, God is immaterial... intangible... non-corporeal... Spirit.

God came in the likeness of sinful flesh to reveal Himself and take away sin. Then the "Church" decided He was three whole distinct persons. Now He's constantly illustrated as inanimate objects by comparison.
 
S

SantoSubito

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#20
You are evading the question

I believe Christ is the son of God, but not God Himself. In your opinion does this belief bar me from having eternal life. It is a simple question that requires a simple answer. Yes or no

And a true Christian would answer forthrightly and not hedge, but have the courage of his convictions and clearly state what he believes
I'll bite. From what I can draw you either don't believe in the Trinity or you believe in it with one major alteration. So of course I can not say with 100% certainty that you will not inherit Eternal Life, but you would be propagating error and heresy which is a grave sin which you would be culpable for. There are various factors that would mitigate culpability, but as I don't know you I can only assume that none of them apply.

As John Henry Newman said: We can believe what we choose. [But] we are answerable for what we choose to believe. — John Henry Newman (Anglican convert to Catholicism)
 
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