The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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FreeGrace2 said:
From the context, obviously the Tribulation generation. The "end" means the end of the Trib. The context is clear.
Are you really that dense? Getting beheaded is what creates MARYTRS. Which wlll be resurrected at the end of the Trib. Rev 20:5
It also means all those martyred before the gt did not "endure to the end"[/QUOTE]
Go ahead and ignore or maybe just cut the ENTIRE chapter 20 out of your Bible, so you won't be bothered by what it says.
Pretrib presumption is the theory.
Actually, you CAN'T count. There is only 1 resurrection of the saved. You presume series or stages of them.
From the context, obviously the Tribulation generation. The "end" means the end of the Trib. The context is clear.
Are you really that dense? Getting beheaded is what creates MARYTRS. Which wlll be resurrected at the end of the Trib. Rev 20:5
It also means all those martyred before the gt did not "endure to the end"[/QUOTE]
Go ahead and ignore or maybe just cut the ENTIRE chapter 20 out of your Bible, so you won't be bothered by what it says.
Pretrib presumption is the theory.
Actually, you CAN'T count. There is only 1 resurrection of the saved. You presume series or stages of them.
Yes, but Christians themselves are told to endure to the end. Are you a Christian? Then you are to endure to the end. The overcomer is being sent to overcome. Even there the apostasy changes it to 'overcome the normal tribulations' but only to the beginning of the end, only to BEFORE THE WOE. BUT THAT ISN'T what the bible says. That is yet another 'Hath God said', WHEN GOD DIDN'T SAY IT. HOW MANY verses need to be made void?
And I missed the solution to Jesus coming and rapturing 2.6 billion people from earth and and by disobeying the command of God to sit till enemies are made footstool... and what impact JESUS BEING AT THE FEET OF SATAN HAS on those who would ever believe it was possible. Four times it is repeated. Not just once. EVEN in the OT it is written.
BUT I am sure if THE APOSTASY says it enough times the 'sting' of it too will fade and somehow just like all the rest of the verses that have been twisted and accepted this also will somehow be made to do so.
How ever will so many be made to believe a lie?
HOW MANY THINGS ARE NEED TO BE SHOWN TO BE IN DIRECT CONFLICT BEFORE GODS TRUTH BECOMES MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS APOSTASY?
I wonder why the 'body of Christ' or 'the church age' is being preached and not the Kingdom of Heaven is there a reason for that????
DOESN'T IT BOTHER ANYONE THAT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE WRITTEN AND THE ENTIRE APOSTASY IS SOLELY BASED UPON HATH GOD SAID?
If only there was just 1 that didn't depend on conjecture. JUST1
The apostasy can try and convince itself this is about a different people in a different times but rest assured, GOD DOESN'T CHANGE. AND THIS WON'T BE THE FIRST TIME GREAT TRIBULATION HAS COME UPON US.
Ezekiel 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
Ezekiel 13:4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
WHAT DOES WANT HIS PEOPLE TO DO? STAND IN THE DAY OF BATTLE. HAVE FAITH IN HIS POWER.
Ezekiel 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
HOW MANY TIMES WILLL THIS APOSTASY BE ASKED 'WHERE IS IT WRITTEN' AND IT WILL ANSWER WITH HATH GOD SAID AND NEVER WITH IT IS WRITTEN RIGHT HERE.
Ezekiel 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
THE WORDS OF GOD HAVE NEVER SAID IT. NOT ONCE. NOT IN THE HUNDREDS OF PLACES THAT IT WOULD HAVE/COULD HAVE/SHOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED IF IT INDEED WERE TRUTH.
Ezekiel 13:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE GOD WHO NEVER CHANGES, WHO IS NOT A RESPECTER OF PERSONS, WHO IS JUST WOULD BE ABLE TO TREAT ONE PERSON THIS WAY IF HE DIDN'T TREAT ALL OF THEM?
OR
WOULD PRE TRIB THOSE WHO NEED IT MOST AS EVIDENCED BY THE ASSESSMENT OF THE CHURCHES?
Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
PRE TRIB RAPTURE PROMISES 'PEACE' TO THOSE WHO GO AND HELL TO THOSE WHO STAY. DO YOU SEE THIS? DOES IT MATTER? IT THIS THEORY WORTH THE COST?
Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
HAs anyone ever LOOKED UP WHAT 'UNTEMPERED MORTER' IS? Someone SHOULD
Ezekiel 13:12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
WHY DO I ASK 'WHAT WILL YOU ANSWER GOD' WHEN THESE QUESTIONS ARE ASKED? ARE YOU GOING TO SAY I KNOW IT WASN'T WRITTEN BUT 'I THOUGHT' OR 'I FIGURED' OR 'IT SEEMED' OR 'I DEDUCED'? WHEN HE SAYS HOW DID YOU GET PAST THE COMMAND I COMMANDED CHRIST TO SIT UNTIL.....HOW WERE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH STEALING HOPE FROM THE WORLD?
Ezekiel 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
THIS APOSTASY MUST BE STOPPED. SO EVERY TIME IT ASKES ANOTHER QUESTION I WILL TAKE IT HEAD ON AND I WILL REPEAT ALL THESE LIES THAT ARE TOLD EVERY TIME IT IS PUT FORTH SO THAT AT SOME POINT THE LIES WILL BE KNOWN BETTER THAN THE APOSTASY. YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY COUNT ON IT BECAUSE THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH IN IT AND IT ABSOLUTELY SHOWS WITH EVERY ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT ANSWER. I ABSOLUTELY EXPECT THE ARROWS TO FLY FROM THE CHEAP FAKE BOW BECAUSE THAT ABSOLUTELY IS WRITTEN AND IT ABSOLUTELY IS COMING TO PASS.
AND WHAT DOES GOD DO?
Ezekiel 13:14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
ABSOLUTELY, THAT IS A PROMISE FROM GOD. THE FOUNDATION IS LIES AND ALL THAT RISE UP FROM IT IS LIES AND VANITY.
Ezekiel 13:15 Thus will I accomplish MY WRATH upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it
I am sure you have read what follows, have you not? Those who are taught to 'fly away' are ripped from THOSE WHO TEACH THEM TO FLY AWAY.
IT IS ONE THING TO BELIEVE IT,
IT IS ENTIRELY ANOTHER TO TEACH IT.
Has there ever been another doctrine put forth that teaches anything like this? NO. Nothing even close to it.
All you need to prove a pretrib rapture is to quote a verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Good luck with that.
I've shown from Scripture that there is a single resurrection of the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23. Count them yourself. Rev 20:5 shows trib martyrs being resurrected AFTER the Trib, when Jesus is reigning as King.
Not real difficult to figure out. Simple, in fact.
Yes, Acts 24:15 very clearly says there will be a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. So yes, there will be 2 resurrrections total.
And since Rev 20:5 says the resurrection of the trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection, we know that the resurrection calling all unbelievers to the GWT is the second one (Rev 20:11-15).
So, all you pretribbers have to figure out WHEN that single resurrection of the saved will occur. Just one. Can't be pretrib since trib marytrs will be resurrected after the Trib.
In fact, just ALL the saints who have already died since Adam. At the Second Advent (when He comes), "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. So, all believers will be resurrected at the same event.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Exqctly what I've been saying.
Not sure what you are talking about, but the single resurrection of the saved will be WHEN He COMES, as 1 Cor 15:23 plainly says.
The so-called "rapture" will occur when He comes at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
The text says v.1 WON'T occur UNTIL the rebellion and beast/ac is revealed. Which means the SA and gathering occurs after the Trib.
I've shown from Scripture that there is a single resurrection of the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23. Count them yourself. Rev 20:5 shows trib martyrs being resurrected AFTER the Trib, when Jesus is reigning as King.
Not real difficult to figure out. Simple, in fact.
Yes, Acts 24:15 very clearly says there will be a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. So yes, there will be 2 resurrrections total.
And since Rev 20:5 says the resurrection of the trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection, we know that the resurrection calling all unbelievers to the GWT is the second one (Rev 20:11-15).
So, all you pretribbers have to figure out WHEN that single resurrection of the saved will occur. Just one. Can't be pretrib since trib marytrs will be resurrected after the Trib.
In fact, just ALL the saints who have already died since Adam. At the Second Advent (when He comes), "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. So, all believers will be resurrected at the same event.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Exqctly what I've been saying.
Not sure what you are talking about, but the single resurrection of the saved will be WHEN He COMES, as 1 Cor 15:23 plainly says.
The so-called "rapture" will occur when He comes at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
The text says v.1 WON'T occur UNTIL the rebellion and beast/ac is revealed. Which means the SA and gathering occurs after the Trib.
Prophecy has t be discerned, if you were it called unto it then you can't discern it. This is really, really simple stuff.
Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.(Church) 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (CHURCH...........SEE verse 8 above)
Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (Armageddon)
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.(The Church in FINE WHITE LINEN).
So, the Church is in Heaven, MARRIES the Lamb (Jesus) then RETURNS to earth where we see the Beast and his Armies are still ALIVE on the earth. This is simple stuff man, but pride mandates we stick to our understandings!! Meanwhile God shakes His head because this is stuff a child should be able to deduce. Its that simple as per the timelines.
We see...SEE the Church in Rev. 4:4 they sit at God's THRONES, they have on White Raiment, and God CROWNS and you cant deduce this is the church when in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 we are told just this and that there were 24 Elders and in Rev. 1:6 and 5:9-10 we are told that we the Church are Kings and Priests. Well, in 1 Chronicles 24 we are shown the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. The 24 Elders represents the Church here, we are kings and priests n Christ Jesus.
Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
So, God is SHOUTING at us in Rev. 4:4 that this is my Church, they have on White Raiment, sit at my THRONE and have on CROWNS of Gold. The very things promised unto those who OVERCAME & who were FAITHFUL as seen in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 (see above).
Then in Rev. 5:9-10 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened up in Heaven in Rev. 6, we see the Church there again, singing and saying God has REDEEMED US by the blood of Jesus, Angels do not need redeeming thus this can only be the Church IN HEAVEN before the Seals are ever opened. The 24 Elders represent the 24 Orders of the Priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24, go look it up. Jesus told us why he spoke to the Disciples in parables, so they hearing would hear and understand, but the world hearing would not understand. God is doing the same thing, you have to know the Old Testament in order to understand the book of Revelation in full.
Why do other people have to dig it out for you? I se this where people say SHOW ME SHOW ME and I shake my head tbh. Dig it out !! If you are not willing to do the work just stop pretending you understand Prophesy my brothers and stick to your callings.
Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.(Church) 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (CHURCH...........SEE verse 8 above)
Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (Armageddon)
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.(The Church in FINE WHITE LINEN).
So, the Church is in Heaven, MARRIES the Lamb (Jesus) then RETURNS to earth where we see the Beast and his Armies are still ALIVE on the earth. This is simple stuff man, but pride mandates we stick to our understandings!! Meanwhile God shakes His head because this is stuff a child should be able to deduce. Its that simple as per the timelines.
We see...SEE the Church in Rev. 4:4 they sit at God's THRONES, they have on White Raiment, and God CROWNS and you cant deduce this is the church when in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 we are told just this and that there were 24 Elders and in Rev. 1:6 and 5:9-10 we are told that we the Church are Kings and Priests. Well, in 1 Chronicles 24 we are shown the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. The 24 Elders represents the Church here, we are kings and priests n Christ Jesus.
Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
So, God is SHOUTING at us in Rev. 4:4 that this is my Church, they have on White Raiment, sit at my THRONE and have on CROWNS of Gold. The very things promised unto those who OVERCAME & who were FAITHFUL as seen in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 (see above).
Then in Rev. 5:9-10 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened up in Heaven in Rev. 6, we see the Church there again, singing and saying God has REDEEMED US by the blood of Jesus, Angels do not need redeeming thus this can only be the Church IN HEAVEN before the Seals are ever opened. The 24 Elders represent the 24 Orders of the Priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24, go look it up. Jesus told us why he spoke to the Disciples in parables, so they hearing would hear and understand, but the world hearing would not understand. God is doing the same thing, you have to know the Old Testament in order to understand the book of Revelation in full.
Why do other people have to dig it out for you? I se this where people say SHOW ME SHOW ME and I shake my head tbh. Dig it out !! If you are not willing to do the work just stop pretending you understand Prophesy my brothers and stick to your callings.
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name(married to God) written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
This is metaphoric, God is the GREAT VOICE he demands a song, and the Angels start harping with harps or playing music in Heaven, then the 144,000 start singing ON EARTH. You are conflating the two.
Rev. 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Its all symbolic, when we sing and pray what happens ? It goes up to the throne room before the Lord God see proof of this in Rev. 8:3-4.
Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
More symbolism, the Church are said to be 10 Virgins, why do we understand the Church is not all virgins but we think thee "144, 000" are?
This is the obvious Harvest Chapter. The 144,000 are the 3-5 million Jews whom repent. Don't you think its odd that the Fleeing Jews of 3-5 million (Zechariah 13:8-9) are never numbered anywhere in the book of Revelation? The Jews are Harvested by Jesus when he lands on Mt. Zion. He Harvests the Wicked in the Wine-press of God's Wrath in Rev. 17-20 (really happens in Rev. 16:19) AND we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture in Rev. 14:14.
Yes, they are on the earth, Mt Zion, but its really in the Petra/Bozrah area, Isaiah 61 says Jesus comes from Edom, from the East.
First-fruits are a designation unto DIFFERENT HARVESTS. There was a Barley Harvest, a Wheat Harvest and a Grape Harvest Festival. The Barley comes in BEFORE the Wheat. The Church is the Barley, it can be SIFTED without being CRUSHED in a machine the Greeks called a Tribulum, (where the word English Tribulation comes from. Thus the Barley = the Church, we do not need to go through the tribulation to be sifted, thus we are ready for the Pre Trib Rapture, the Jewish nation needs to go through the Tribulation because they have yet to repent, they can't be SIFTED until they are first CRUSHED. They will be the First-fruits of the Wheat, just like we (Church) are the First-fruits of the Barley. The Wicked Grapes will be placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath, they are the First-fruits of the wicked Grapes. Its all metaphoric in nature, God uses the three Harvest Festivals to paint us a picture of the coming end times Harvests.
Yes, they are Jews, the Wheat GROWS with the Tares until the end.
The Rev. 14:14 Harvest is a FLASHBACK, look at Jesus, he's on a CLOUD, (we meet him in the air) and Jesus himself thrusts in the sickle to Harvest, in verses 17:20 the Angel thrusts in the sickle to Harvest the Wicked. Likewise in Rev. 14:1 Jesus again Harvests the Jews/Israel, him landing on Mt. Zion signifies this, Jesus will gather the Jews who REPENT into his barn, then raise us the Old Jewish Saints at the VERY END just as Daniel was told in Dan. 12:1-2.
All of these prophesies of God are meant to be hard to understand, thus we have to dig it out. You are better than most at thus, but God has given us a CODED BOOK on purpose.
Gotta run, God Bless.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
This is metaphoric, God is the GREAT VOICE he demands a song, and the Angels start harping with harps or playing music in Heaven, then the 144,000 start singing ON EARTH. You are conflating the two.
Rev. 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Its all symbolic, when we sing and pray what happens ? It goes up to the throne room before the Lord God see proof of this in Rev. 8:3-4.
Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
More symbolism, the Church are said to be 10 Virgins, why do we understand the Church is not all virgins but we think thee "144, 000" are?
This is the obvious Harvest Chapter. The 144,000 are the 3-5 million Jews whom repent. Don't you think its odd that the Fleeing Jews of 3-5 million (Zechariah 13:8-9) are never numbered anywhere in the book of Revelation? The Jews are Harvested by Jesus when he lands on Mt. Zion. He Harvests the Wicked in the Wine-press of God's Wrath in Rev. 17-20 (really happens in Rev. 16:19) AND we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture in Rev. 14:14.
Yes, they are on the earth, Mt Zion, but its really in the Petra/Bozrah area, Isaiah 61 says Jesus comes from Edom, from the East.
First-fruits are a designation unto DIFFERENT HARVESTS. There was a Barley Harvest, a Wheat Harvest and a Grape Harvest Festival. The Barley comes in BEFORE the Wheat. The Church is the Barley, it can be SIFTED without being CRUSHED in a machine the Greeks called a Tribulum, (where the word English Tribulation comes from. Thus the Barley = the Church, we do not need to go through the tribulation to be sifted, thus we are ready for the Pre Trib Rapture, the Jewish nation needs to go through the Tribulation because they have yet to repent, they can't be SIFTED until they are first CRUSHED. They will be the First-fruits of the Wheat, just like we (Church) are the First-fruits of the Barley. The Wicked Grapes will be placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath, they are the First-fruits of the wicked Grapes. Its all metaphoric in nature, God uses the three Harvest Festivals to paint us a picture of the coming end times Harvests.
Yes, they are Jews, the Wheat GROWS with the Tares until the end.
The Rev. 14:14 Harvest is a FLASHBACK, look at Jesus, he's on a CLOUD, (we meet him in the air) and Jesus himself thrusts in the sickle to Harvest, in verses 17:20 the Angel thrusts in the sickle to Harvest the Wicked. Likewise in Rev. 14:1 Jesus again Harvests the Jews/Israel, him landing on Mt. Zion signifies this, Jesus will gather the Jews who REPENT into his barn, then raise us the Old Jewish Saints at the VERY END just as Daniel was told in Dan. 12:1-2.
All of these prophesies of God are meant to be hard to understand, thus we have to dig it out. You are better than most at thus, but God has given us a CODED BOOK on purpose.
Gotta run, God Bless.
5281. hupomoné ►
Strong's Concordance
hupomoné: a remaining behind, a patient enduring
Original Word: ὑπομονή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hupomoné
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-om-on-ay')
Definition: a remaining behind, a patient enduring
Usage: endurance, steadfastness, patient waiting for.
HELPS Word-studies
5281 hypomonḗ (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 3306 /ménō, "remain, endure") – properly, remaining under, endurance; steadfastness, especially as God enables the believer to "remain (endure) under" the challenges He allots in life.
WHICH TAKES FAITH IN THE POWER OF GOD
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from hupomenó
Definition
a remaining behind, a patient enduring
NASB Translation
endurance (7), patient enduring (1), perseverance (21), steadfastness (3).
A COURSE SET BEFORE THE CHRISTIANS
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers FOR MY NAME'S SAKE
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men FOR MY NAME'S SAKE
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
THIS IS WHAT IS WRITTEN
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
THIS IS WHAT COMES FROM THE APOSTASY/HATH GOD SAID?
BUT EVERYONE WILL BE BEHEADED. THERE WONT BE ANY ONE FOR A POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE. EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE KILLED. THERE IS GOING TO BE WAR AND KILLINGS FOR THE ENTIRE TIME SO WE WONT BE THERE
FOR THE 100TH??? TIME, THAT IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT IS WRITTEN.
THE APOSTASY TELL YOU TO FEAR WHAT GOD TELLS US NOT TO FEAR.
THE WHOLE REASON FOR PRE TRIB APOSTASY IS FEAR OF WHAT WE ARE TOLD NOT TO FEAR. BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES FEAR, THEY WANT TO MAKE EVERYONE FEAR. BUT WE ARE NOT TO FEAR, WE ARE TO STAND AND FIGHT FOR GODS TRUTH. WE ARE TO STAND FOR HIS NAMESAKE JUST LIKE ALL WHO HAVE COME BEFORE US.
JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN VS HATH GOD SAID? BY THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.
THIS IS THE COURSE THAT IS LAID OUT BEFORE US, US BEING CHRISTIANS, who make up the body of Christ
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.
13 He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
LET THE CHRISTIAN THAT HAS AN EAR HEAR THE MESSAGE THAT IS BEING GIVEN TO ALL THE CHURCHES, TO THE 'BODY OF CHRIST' , LET THE MAN OF CHRIST OVERCOME BECAUSE THE CHRISTIAN STAYS THE COURSE SET IN FRONT OF HIM AS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR DID, AS PAUL DID, AS BOTH OF THOSE WHO WERE TRANSLATED/TRANSFORMED DID AS ALL THAT CAME BEFORE HAVE
DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN WHO TELLS 'THIS IS NOT HOW GOD OPERATES' BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. THIS IS WHAT HAS TAKEN PLACE AND THESE THINGS ARE WRITTEN TO US, NOT TO THOSE WHO DON'T READ.
MEN ARE TRYING TO TAKE YOUR CROWN BY TELLING YOU GOD IS SAYING THINGS THAT HE HAS NOT SAID, THINGS THAT ARE NOT WRITTEN.
THIS IS THE COURSE THAT IS LAID OUT BEFORE US, CHRISTIANS, SOLDIERS OF CHRIST, THOSE OF US WHO PUT THE LOVE OF GOD ABOVE OURSELVES. DON'T LET THIS BE STOLEN FROM YOU BY FALSE DOCTRINE. DON'T BE A PART OF THE APOSTASY
Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for My name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
WE HAVE WORK TO DO. WOULD CHRIST HAVE LEFT PRE SATAN? HE DIDN'T BEFORE. IS HE OUR EXAMPLE OR NOT? ARE WE TOLD TO PICK UP OUR CROSS? OR NOT? ARE WE TOLD THAT TO LOSE THIS LIFE IS TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE? OR NOT?
DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU WITH TWISTED WORDS THAT MAKE VOID THE WORDS OF GOD.
WHAT IS THE COURSE SET BEFORE A CHRISTIAN?
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
WHAT IS THE COURSE SET BEFORE A CHRISTIAN?
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Strong's Concordance
hupomoné: a remaining behind, a patient enduring
Original Word: ὑπομονή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hupomoné
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-om-on-ay')
Definition: a remaining behind, a patient enduring
Usage: endurance, steadfastness, patient waiting for.
HELPS Word-studies
5281 hypomonḗ (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 3306 /ménō, "remain, endure") – properly, remaining under, endurance; steadfastness, especially as God enables the believer to "remain (endure) under" the challenges He allots in life.
WHICH TAKES FAITH IN THE POWER OF GOD
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from hupomenó
Definition
a remaining behind, a patient enduring
NASB Translation
endurance (7), patient enduring (1), perseverance (21), steadfastness (3).
A COURSE SET BEFORE THE CHRISTIANS
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers FOR MY NAME'S SAKE
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men FOR MY NAME'S SAKE
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
THIS IS WHAT IS WRITTEN
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
THIS IS WHAT COMES FROM THE APOSTASY/HATH GOD SAID?
BUT EVERYONE WILL BE BEHEADED. THERE WONT BE ANY ONE FOR A POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE. EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE KILLED. THERE IS GOING TO BE WAR AND KILLINGS FOR THE ENTIRE TIME SO WE WONT BE THERE
FOR THE 100TH??? TIME, THAT IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT IS WRITTEN.
THE APOSTASY TELL YOU TO FEAR WHAT GOD TELLS US NOT TO FEAR.
THE WHOLE REASON FOR PRE TRIB APOSTASY IS FEAR OF WHAT WE ARE TOLD NOT TO FEAR. BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES FEAR, THEY WANT TO MAKE EVERYONE FEAR. BUT WE ARE NOT TO FEAR, WE ARE TO STAND AND FIGHT FOR GODS TRUTH. WE ARE TO STAND FOR HIS NAMESAKE JUST LIKE ALL WHO HAVE COME BEFORE US.
JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN VS HATH GOD SAID? BY THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.
THIS IS THE COURSE THAT IS LAID OUT BEFORE US, US BEING CHRISTIANS, who make up the body of Christ
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.
13 He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
LET THE CHRISTIAN THAT HAS AN EAR HEAR THE MESSAGE THAT IS BEING GIVEN TO ALL THE CHURCHES, TO THE 'BODY OF CHRIST' , LET THE MAN OF CHRIST OVERCOME BECAUSE THE CHRISTIAN STAYS THE COURSE SET IN FRONT OF HIM AS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR DID, AS PAUL DID, AS BOTH OF THOSE WHO WERE TRANSLATED/TRANSFORMED DID AS ALL THAT CAME BEFORE HAVE
DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN WHO TELLS 'THIS IS NOT HOW GOD OPERATES' BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. THIS IS WHAT HAS TAKEN PLACE AND THESE THINGS ARE WRITTEN TO US, NOT TO THOSE WHO DON'T READ.
MEN ARE TRYING TO TAKE YOUR CROWN BY TELLING YOU GOD IS SAYING THINGS THAT HE HAS NOT SAID, THINGS THAT ARE NOT WRITTEN.
THIS IS THE COURSE THAT IS LAID OUT BEFORE US, CHRISTIANS, SOLDIERS OF CHRIST, THOSE OF US WHO PUT THE LOVE OF GOD ABOVE OURSELVES. DON'T LET THIS BE STOLEN FROM YOU BY FALSE DOCTRINE. DON'T BE A PART OF THE APOSTASY
Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for My name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
WE HAVE WORK TO DO. WOULD CHRIST HAVE LEFT PRE SATAN? HE DIDN'T BEFORE. IS HE OUR EXAMPLE OR NOT? ARE WE TOLD TO PICK UP OUR CROSS? OR NOT? ARE WE TOLD THAT TO LOSE THIS LIFE IS TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE? OR NOT?
DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU WITH TWISTED WORDS THAT MAKE VOID THE WORDS OF GOD.
WHAT IS THE COURSE SET BEFORE A CHRISTIAN?
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
WHAT IS THE COURSE SET BEFORE A CHRISTIAN?
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
CONTINUE ON WITH THE "Hath God said?" APOSTASY.
ALBEIT HE DIDN'T. NOT ONE TIME. BUT IF ONE CAN CLOSE ONES EYES TO A COMMAND OF GOD LIKE IT IS NO BIG DEAL
SUCH AS
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
EVERYONE CAN SEE HE IS STILL THERE FOR THE DAY OF HIS WRATH. WHERE IS THE PSALM FOR A PRE TRIB LEAVING AND RETURN OR A PSALM THAT TELLS US OF THIS 'EVENT'? AGAIN, IT ISN'T WRITTEN ANYWHERE.
Any chance you will quite bringing up those same verses again and again. That horse has died a terrible death and beating it more will not change that.
Which you say IS OK because
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John:
and
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
ALBEIT HE DIDN'T. NOT ONE TIME. BUT IF ONE CAN CLOSE ONES EYES TO A COMMAND OF GOD LIKE IT IS NO BIG DEAL
SUCH AS
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
EVERYONE CAN SEE HE IS STILL THERE FOR THE DAY OF HIS WRATH. WHERE IS THE PSALM FOR A PRE TRIB LEAVING AND RETURN OR A PSALM THAT TELLS US OF THIS 'EVENT'? AGAIN, IT ISN'T WRITTEN ANYWHERE.
Any chance you will quite bringing up those same verses again and again. That horse has died a terrible death and beating it more will not change that.
Which you say IS OK because
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John:
and
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
This is an arrogant claim. As if you have been "called to more discernment than others. The Holy Spirit has been given to EVERY believer and is our Guide for TRUTH. You don't have more truth than any other believer, so stop thinking you do.
Such comments only come from those who KNOW they don't have Scriptural evidence for their claims, and such thinking allows the claimer to MAKE UP WHATEVER they need to defend their views.
If you can't provide a verse that says what you claim, give up. Keep your Bible-less views to yourself, or at least admit you are presuming.
Such comments only come from those who KNOW they don't have Scriptural evidence for their claims, and such thinking allows the claimer to MAKE UP WHATEVER they need to defend their views.
If you can't provide a verse that says what you claim, give up. Keep your Bible-less views to yourself, or at least admit you are presuming.
I would sure love to read where IT IS WRITTEN 'the harvests' are end time doctrine/directions for the gathering of the souls.
Because that is in direct conflict with WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
IF I UNDERSTAND THE PRE TRIB STANCE CORRECTLY NOT ONLY DOES GOD NOT ANSWER THIS PRAYER OF THE LORD BUT INSTEAD SENDS HIM TO GO DO THAT VERY THING EVEN THOUGH HE HAS COMMANDED HIM TO REMAIN SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHICH ULTIMATELY ENDS UP PUTTING JESUS AT THE FEET OF SATAN. IS THIS CORRECT?
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
SINCE NOT OF THE WORLD ALREADY WHAT IS THE POINT OF TAKING THEM OUT OF THE WORLD BEFORE THEY CAN OVERCOME?
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word
HOW WILL THEY HEAR IF ALL WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE TRUTH ARE THEN TAKEN AWAY?
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.
HOW CAN THEY ALL BE ONE IF THE TWO WITNESSES ARE SENT HERE AND THEY ARE TAKEN AWAY?
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me.
HOW CAN THIS TAKE PLACE IF THEY ARE REMOVED FROM THE VERY PLACE IN WHICH THIS TAKES PLACE?
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.
FOR THEM TO BE WITH HIM WITH HIM BEING IN HEAVEN WITH THE LORD FOR THE PAST 2000 YEARS WOULD MEAN THAT THE DEAD WOULD HAVE TO RISE. AND IF THE DEAD DID RISE TO BE WITH HIM THEN HE WOULD HAVE TO BRING THEM BACK WHEN HE CAME TO GATHER THE ALIVE AND REMAINING.
AND THAT WOULD REQUIRE THAT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN 1 THESS AND 1 CORINTH AND JOHN 14 TO BE GODS TRUTH. WHICH WOULD MEAN ALL THAT CONJECTURE ON THE HARVESTS IS JUST AS INCORRECT AS THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY ITSELF.
Because that is in direct conflict with WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
IF I UNDERSTAND THE PRE TRIB STANCE CORRECTLY NOT ONLY DOES GOD NOT ANSWER THIS PRAYER OF THE LORD BUT INSTEAD SENDS HIM TO GO DO THAT VERY THING EVEN THOUGH HE HAS COMMANDED HIM TO REMAIN SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHICH ULTIMATELY ENDS UP PUTTING JESUS AT THE FEET OF SATAN. IS THIS CORRECT?
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
SINCE NOT OF THE WORLD ALREADY WHAT IS THE POINT OF TAKING THEM OUT OF THE WORLD BEFORE THEY CAN OVERCOME?
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word
HOW WILL THEY HEAR IF ALL WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE TRUTH ARE THEN TAKEN AWAY?
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.
HOW CAN THEY ALL BE ONE IF THE TWO WITNESSES ARE SENT HERE AND THEY ARE TAKEN AWAY?
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me.
HOW CAN THIS TAKE PLACE IF THEY ARE REMOVED FROM THE VERY PLACE IN WHICH THIS TAKES PLACE?
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.
FOR THEM TO BE WITH HIM WITH HIM BEING IN HEAVEN WITH THE LORD FOR THE PAST 2000 YEARS WOULD MEAN THAT THE DEAD WOULD HAVE TO RISE. AND IF THE DEAD DID RISE TO BE WITH HIM THEN HE WOULD HAVE TO BRING THEM BACK WHEN HE CAME TO GATHER THE ALIVE AND REMAINING.
AND THAT WOULD REQUIRE THAT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN 1 THESS AND 1 CORINTH AND JOHN 14 TO BE GODS TRUTH. WHICH WOULD MEAN ALL THAT CONJECTURE ON THE HARVESTS IS JUST AS INCORRECT AS THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY ITSELF.
How did Paul?
Galatians 1:11-12 [said by Paul] -
"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by [by means of] revelation of Jesus Christ."
You apparently disagree that this was indeed the case for Paul, as we see in Acts 9 [/ Acts 22 / Acts 26]
[besides that, how did you and I "hear" and believe through THEIR word, when "THEY" (the ones whom He is talking specifically about there) lived in the first century?? How is that possible?]
Galatians 1:11-12 [said by Paul] -
"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by [by means of] revelation of Jesus Christ."
You apparently disagree that this was indeed the case for Paul, as we see in Acts 9 [/ Acts 22 / Acts 26]
[besides that, how did you and I "hear" and believe through THEIR word, when "THEY" (the ones whom He is talking specifically about there) lived in the first century?? How is that possible?]
Acts 22 -
6And it came to pass, that, as I [Paul] made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
[...]
14And he [Ananias] said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
6And it came to pass, that, as I [Paul] made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
[...]
14And he [Ananias] said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Paul says some are feet, some are hands, some or legs etc. Many people (like you) really enjoy prophecy but that doesn't mean you were called unto it, I can tell because when people are wrong on almost everything that they espouse about prophecy, that's proof in and of itself that they were not called unto prophecy, that's just factual. So, the prophets knew Prophecy, but they may not have been called to understand it, they HEARD IT and thus wrote it, but Daniel clearly stated he did not understand. God has those who understand prophecy in its right time, He calls them but not people who just GUESS like most which I see here. Now, you can call it whatsoever you so desire, that changes nothing does it. I don't have one concern what men say or think tbh, I am not called by men but by God, for 30 plus years, and I had enough horse sense to wait on God for those 30 years before I spoke on things as facts because that's when God chose to give them to me, I didn't run around guessing.
This is an untruth, it would be a mitigated disaster if we followed that logic.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
1 Cor. 12:15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.
So, God has a different calling for us all, you trying to understand Prophecy doesn't seem to be your calling. Nor many others on here, I was indeed called unto Prophetic Understanding many, many years ago, as a young Christian I was told in a vision that the Anti-Christ was in the world in 1986.
It doesn't matter what anyone tells you, you seemingly can't grasp it because like the Pharisees "YOU ALL READY KNOW IT ALL" and even when I prove your types wrong they always run away, never answer when they are proven wrong, then repeat the same things that were proven wrong later.
Its evident you do not understand prophecy or end time events. God will reward us for what we have done on this earth. There will be those that barley squeeze in and there will be a reason they have nothing much in heaven as per responsibilities.
I will let you explain to God why you couldn't understand what we could understand, there will be no excuse. I shan't sit here and debate a person who has seemingly has no capacity to understand anything other than his preconceived ideas via things that are very, very, evident.
Its self explanatory, you can't understand that which you were not called unto. So, do you really think God is going to just willy nilly give His understanding via Prophecy to everyone? This is why 95 percent of the Church has very little understanding of Prophecy, they need to be taught, but then we have those not called, trying to teach, and it just leads to confusion.
This is an untruth, it would be a mitigated disaster if we followed that logic.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
1 Cor. 12:15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.
So, God has a different calling for us all, you trying to understand Prophecy doesn't seem to be your calling. Nor many others on here, I was indeed called unto Prophetic Understanding many, many years ago, as a young Christian I was told in a vision that the Anti-Christ was in the world in 1986.
It doesn't matter what anyone tells you, you seemingly can't grasp it because like the Pharisees "YOU ALL READY KNOW IT ALL" and even when I prove your types wrong they always run away, never answer when they are proven wrong, then repeat the same things that were proven wrong later.
Its evident you do not understand prophecy or end time events. God will reward us for what we have done on this earth. There will be those that barley squeeze in and there will be a reason they have nothing much in heaven as per responsibilities.
I will let you explain to God why you couldn't understand what we could understand, there will be no excuse. I shan't sit here and debate a person who has seemingly has no capacity to understand anything other than his preconceived ideas via things that are very, very, evident.
Its self explanatory, you can't understand that which you were not called unto. So, do you really think God is going to just willy nilly give His understanding via Prophecy to everyone? This is why 95 percent of the Church has very little understanding of Prophecy, they need to be taught, but then we have those not called, trying to teach, and it just leads to confusion.
No, it means you do not understand the facts, Jesus was praying about his Disciples, and he knew they was going to have to build his Church. So, how do you not understand that? You conflate HIS 12 Disciples with the WHOLE CHURCH for 200 years, it makes absolutely no sense for anyone not to be able to grasp this brother.
The rest of your post would be a waste because you have focused on a WRONG ASSUMPTION.
The rest of your post would be a waste because you have focused on a WRONG ASSUMPTION.
News flash. You are NO authority on the subject and you have NO RIGHT to claim who is right and wrong. What you keep doing is proving that I am right that your posts are arrogant.
The proof of a poster is in what he/she posts. You claim I am "wrong about almost everything". OK, now prove your arrogant claim.
I mean, show my post, and provide evidence that I am wrong. That's how you do it, if you can. I will claim that you can't.
Just because you say so.
FreeGrace2 said:
The Holy Spirit has been given to EVERY believer and is our Guide for TRUTH. You don't have more truth than any other believer, so stop thinking you do.
You calling the Bible an "untruth", eh? Yes, that is quite arrogant.
First, the Holy Spirit has been given to every believer. Prove me wrong with examples, if I am. All through the NT believers received the Holy Spirit. I am not referring to the OT. That's a different story.
Second, Jesus Himself told His disciples (and all believers, by extension) that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.
John 16:13 - But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Maybe you need to read more of the Bible, before you keep making such outlandish and erroneous claims.
Well, at least we know you think what Jesus taught His disciples "would be a mitigated disaster if we followed that logic (teaching).
Of course God has given various spiritual gifts to believers. We don't all have the same gifts. But your wacky presumption that God gives some more smarts than others is beyond the pale.
Arrogant presumption. Again.
Another arrogant presumption. Could have been just a bad reaction to a pizza or something.
I've given verses that actually SAY what I believe, consistently. Where have you refuted ANY of that?
So, you somehow have the authority to "let me explain to God". Really? Are you His personal assistant or something?
Just more arrogant presumption.
You might as well bow out, since you CAN'T refute my posts. So you resort to a low level ad hominem. The only thing you know how to do.
The proof of a poster is in what he/she posts. You claim I am "wrong about almost everything". OK, now prove your arrogant claim.
I mean, show my post, and provide evidence that I am wrong. That's how you do it, if you can. I will claim that you can't.
Just because you say so.
FreeGrace2 said:
The Holy Spirit has been given to EVERY believer and is our Guide for TRUTH. You don't have more truth than any other believer, so stop thinking you do.
You calling the Bible an "untruth", eh? Yes, that is quite arrogant.
First, the Holy Spirit has been given to every believer. Prove me wrong with examples, if I am. All through the NT believers received the Holy Spirit. I am not referring to the OT. That's a different story.
Second, Jesus Himself told His disciples (and all believers, by extension) that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.
John 16:13 - But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Maybe you need to read more of the Bible, before you keep making such outlandish and erroneous claims.
Well, at least we know you think what Jesus taught His disciples "would be a mitigated disaster if we followed that logic (teaching).
Of course God has given various spiritual gifts to believers. We don't all have the same gifts. But your wacky presumption that God gives some more smarts than others is beyond the pale.
Arrogant presumption. Again.
Another arrogant presumption. Could have been just a bad reaction to a pizza or something.
I've given verses that actually SAY what I believe, consistently. Where have you refuted ANY of that?
So, you somehow have the authority to "let me explain to God". Really? Are you His personal assistant or something?
Just more arrogant presumption.
You might as well bow out, since you CAN'T refute my posts. So you resort to a low level ad hominem. The only thing you know how to do.
Jesus spoke on 2 resurrections as you said, of the righteous and wicked. Yet He does not mention 1000 years.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
While Jesus didn't mention 1,000 years between the 2 resurrections, it is clear from reading all of Rev 20. It opens with the Millennial reign of King Jesus and the resurrection of Trib martyrs. After the Millennial reign (1,000 yrs) King Jesus ends the battle of Gog and Magog. THEN we have the SECOND resurrection, the one that calls all unbelievers to the GWT judgment in v.11-15.
John didn't mention 1000 years either, but that doesn't mean there isn't a time span of 1,000 years between the 2 resurrections. It's all in Rev 20.
John didn't mention 1000 years either, but that doesn't mean there isn't a time span of 1,000 years between the 2 resurrections. It's all in Rev 20.
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