THE GRACE OF GOD

Angela53510 · Feb 25, 2015

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:6

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich." 2 Cor. 8:9

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Gal. 2:21

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" Eph. 2:4-5

psychomom · Feb 25, 2015

Zech 4:6-7
Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts.
‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’

VioletReigns · Feb 25, 2015

Grace = RESTING in JESUS CHRIST.

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 25, 2015

DesiredHaven said:

I talk all the time, the problem is, people don't listen. lol And yes, you know as well as I know by experience certain verses of scripture causes people to get their britches all in a bunch (so to speak) lol. That's why I said before I quoted that verse "this one is always a party pleaser." (never fails) lol

seed_time_harvest · Feb 25, 2015

InSpiritInTruth said:

stay strong my friend.

Mitspa · Feb 25, 2015

Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Ac 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Ac 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

psychomom · Feb 25, 2015

InSpiritInTruth said:

thank you...and i'm sorry you're used to it.

DesiredHaven · Feb 25, 2015

InSpiritInTruth said:

I agree, Your right, I tell my husband, hey "watch this"... (copy paste) the page rolls over and then what happens (he laughs) then thinks Im a prophet (lol)

I got what were saying I do it too, hubby is my witness lol

Jabberjaw · Feb 25, 2015

p_rehbein said:

Sadly, I see, this thread intended to only EDIFY the Church has turned into JUST ANOTHER thread in the Bible Discussion Forum.

Being as it is apparent that edification is not acceptable here...............y'all enjoy.......I'm through with this one.

Truly, truly sad when professed believers can not lay aside their theological/denominational ideology long enough to just experience the joy of edification.

Maybe a Mod will venture by and just delete the whole thing.

Why not just go to the Edification thread a Mod started?

[h=2]YouEdify Room Guidelines[/h]

mailmandan · Feb 26, 2015

SeaBass said:

The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared" to all men. That does not mean that all men will receive God's grace through faith. Grace is received conditionally THROUGH FAITH, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Notice that Paul said we have access by faith into grace, not faith and works in Romans 5:2.

Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus does not change the fact that we have access by faith into grace. We can be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus and we can grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18).

Romans 3:24 -being justified freely/as a gift by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Here is where you get confused. James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel/obey from the heart. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" In 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH. Obey from the heart/believe the gospel/freed from sin. Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

One must conditionally have faith in Christ to be in Christ to receive redemption and forgiveness. Obedient works follow "have been saved through faith, created in Christ Jesus" HERE IT COMES unto/for good works. We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). No supplements needed. Works are not the cause of the reception of God's grace, FAITH IS (Romans 5:1,2). We are not "accounted as righteous" based on our works but "shown to be righteous". That is the sense that in which we are justified by works. Paul, when he uses the term "justified," is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24,28; 4:2; 5:1,5:9; 8:30 etc..). James, however is using the term "justified" to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. In your confusion, you have set out to "shoe horn" works "into" saved by grace through faith, not works.

So what do you believe it means to receive the grace of God in vain? The people who failed to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). In Matthew 6:7, we read - And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. In Matthew 15:9, we read - And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." Are you implying that is the case for these Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 6:1? Is that why Paul told them in verse 2, "now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation?"

Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God..(NKJV); comes short of the grace of God..(NAS); misses the grace of God..(NIV); fails to obtain the grace of God..(ESV). Not fail to maintain the grace of God.

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" in order to "remain" in Christ? Is that salvation by grace through faith or salvation by works? To receive something in vain is to receive it without cause or without effect; to no purpose. Does that sound like saved by grace through faith/access by faith into grace to you?

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in them if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Viligant_Warrior · Feb 26, 2015

SeaBass said:

You posted a verse. You misinterpret it, and that is why you think you have to work for your salvation. That's a lie from hell, and whether you intend to lie or are simply a tool of some false teacher or demon, I do not know. But I will not tolerate the continued spread of this evil "gospel" that claims we can lose a salvation which we had nothing to do with in acquiring.

You want verses? You've been given bushels of verses to counter those you lift out of context and claim make support for your false doctrine. You are sold out to a lie, and refuse to see the truth in those verses you've been shown time and time and time again. It bears eerie resemblance to Jesus' warning against casting pearls before swine, but even so, I'll give you verses anyway, and pray God's truth manages to sink into that works-based, misguided heart of yours.

We are brought into an exclusive relationship -- one shared by millions but unique to us as individuals -- when we know Christ as Savior and Lord.

Jude, NASB
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Only Christ can keep us from stumbling. Only Christ can make us stand in the presence of His glory. Only Christ can render us blameless. Only Christ can keep us in great joy through His presence. Once established there, we are His forever. The believer does not keep him/herself from falling. It is only God's power that is able to do that. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation. The "doctrine" of "lost salvation" is a lie from the pit of hell, and those who espouse it do Satan's work, not God's.

John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."

Who could possibly separate us from the firm grip of both the Father and the Son, when both have us firmly grasped in their hand? As I said in what you petulantly dismiss as an "essay," those blessed by heroic acts that save their lives never forget, never lose gratitude, and, if asked, would never hesitate to help the one who saved them in that perilous moment. To think anyone truly saved from the fiery pit of hell by the blood of Jesus Christ could "forget" and "refuse" after that is truly ignorant of salvation themselves.

If they truly knew salvation, their experience that shakes their very being and changes their spirit, mind, and soul would convince them they had been given a gift that is too far beyond their own capabilities to achieve, and for the gratitude and love they feel for Jesus Christ as a result, will surrender to being conformed to His image, which Romans 8:29 tells us is also accomplished by His power, not ours.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 4
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Both these verses assure us of the day of our redemption, the Holy Spirit given to us as a down payment toward the day we are released from the flesh and are transfigured, ushered into the presence of Christ Jesus. The "seal," as I have told you before, is the Greek sfragizo (sphragizo) and is nothing less than security from Satan, literally marked as God's own. This alone destroys the "lost salvation" false doctrine and makes a lie of the words of purveyors of a works-based salvation

None of this is to say we don't have some responsibility, but it isn't to keep our salvation. It is to glorify God, through the works prepared beforehand for those of us saved by faith through grace alone.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There are your verses. Refute them? I think not. Quote other verses against them? Then you make the Bible a contradiction, and destroy its unity. Continue to cling to this "works-based salvation" doctrine that is a lie from hell's own fires? At your own peril.

SeaBass said:

I made no personal attack on you. I did call your teaching heresy, and it is, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that some man has filled your head with these hellish lies, and I'm praying you will see God's truth for what it is.

SeaBass said:

On the contrary, those who claim grace is conditional have denied the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who said simply ...

John 6
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

Not " ... he who believes and does not sin ... " or even " ... he who believes and does the works I've prepared for him ... " NO! " ... he who believes has eternal life." "Believes" = pisteuo (pisteuo) = saving faith, faith that trusts totally in the capabilities of Christ to be Savior and Lord, the one who keeps us from stumbling, who is able to make us stand in the presence of His glory. Anything added to the sufficiency of Christ to save is heresy. So I call it what it is.

SeaBass said:

And here we have the epic display of how false and dishonest your teaching is, because no one has made any such claim. You have to lie about those who oppose this heresy in order to attempt to get others to accept it. May God deal with you and your false doctrine. I'm finished with you.

Discussing this with you is like

and I don't need the headache. Live where you're at until Christ enlightens

Utah · Feb 26, 2015

VioletReigns said:

Violet, I used to have a Bible with this picture in it and I remember just staring at it for hours on end when I was a child. Thanks for sharing this. It brings back wonderful memories of innocence.

SeaBass · Feb 26, 2015

mailmandan said:

You posted "The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared" to all men. That does not mean that all men will receive God's grace through faith. Grace is received conditionally THROUGH FAITH, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Notice that Paul said we have access by faith into grace, not faith and works in Romans 5:2. "

You are partly right.

YOu are wong about the works part for faith itself is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:15.

But you are right in seeing that one must CONDITIONALLY have faith in order to have God's grace. You are refuting some of your faith only buddies here who have already declared God's grace is UNconditional. The implication here is when one receives grace CONDITIONALLY through faith he must also CONDITIONALLY maintain that faith for losing his faith he nolonger has access to grace faithless. BY losing his faith he falls away from grace having received it in vain, Gal 5:4; 2 Cor 6:1.

As far as your error about the ''works" part;

I have read that some consider Paul's Roman epistle as the greatest essay ever written on faith. Paul began this great epistle with "obedience to the faith" Rom 1:5 and ended it with "obedience of faith" Rom 16:26. As it has been said before, these two great pillars of truth begin and end this great epistle. When Paul speaks of a saving faith in the book of Romans, he is obviously speaking about these two pillars of truth, he is talking about an OBEDIENT faith and NEVER says "faith only" saves.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Paul did not say "we have access by faith only into this grace". No one can add to God's word. When "only" is added to this verse then one no longer has God's word but had has substituted God's word with his own philosophy. Again, the two pillars f truth of this epistles shows Paul is talking about an OBEDIENT faith that accesses grace.

Heb 12:15 "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"

Paul was writing to Hebrew Christians warning them they could fail the grace of God. Paul is telling them to "look diligently", that is, to look after each other to see that not any fail God's grace. One must CONDITIONALLY maintain his faith to CONDITIONALLY remain in God's grace and the Hebrew Jews were being warned if they abandoned their faith and return back to keeping the law of Moses they will fail God's grace. " It should be noted that it was not merely the faith of those which the author questioned, but their conduct" Coffman Commentary. "Root of bitterness" their conduct will cause them to fail God's grace.

Secondly, 2 Tim 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."

Saving grace is found "in Christ Jesus" meaning one must be "in Christ" to have grace. Not a single verse say "faith only" puts one in Christ. Gal 3:27 baptism is what puts on in Christ and submitting to baptism requires an OBEDIENT faith as Paul spoke about in Rom 1:5; Rom 16:26.

Thirdly
Tts 3:7--------------justified by grace
James 2:24-----by works a man is justified
Rom 6:17,17----obey from the heart justifies

You seemingly just ignored the point I made here. From these verses It is NOT even debatable that grace/works/obeying justifies.
Comparing these verses, the works James speaks about are the same works Paul speaks about in Rom 6:16,17, that being OBEDIENT works, obeying from the heart.

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, then that can only mean God' grace conditionally requires man's obedient works, the work of faith.

Fourth, Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

The issue is not about the present tense "justified" but about the past tense "fallen". It was not just possible they could fall from grace but that ALREADY had fallen from grace. Logically for you to fall from the roof of your house, you must first climb up and be on that roof.. Likewise one must logically be IN grace in order for him to fall FROM grace. Logically one cannot fall from grace if he was never in grace. Why would Paul lie to them and tell them they had fallen from grace if they had not?

Gal 5:10 Paul was expressing confidence, though they had fallen, that they would not continue to believe those false Judaizing teachers but those false teachers shall be judged. As Adam Clarke aptly puts it " that ye will be none otherwise minded - that ye will be aware of the danger to which ye are exposed, that ye will retreat in time, and recover the grace which ye have lost."

Lastly, the 2 Cor epistle was written to Christians.." unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia" 2 Cor 1:1. For them to be called "the church of God" "saints" means they HAD already received God's grace (Acts 18:8) but could receive that grace in vain. One cannot lose what he never received, so the implicaton is they could loos that grace that had received. "Receiving God's grace in vain was a fate with which the Corinthians were flirting in a most dangerous manner through their close association with the pagan society around them" Coffman

BradC · Feb 26, 2015

The love of God is unconditional because God is love. Grace is not an attribute of God and we have access to grace through the humility of faith. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. If we want grace established in our heart we must humble ourselves. God loves the sinner who is proud but He can't help them through grace until they humble themselves.

SeaBass · Feb 26, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

You proved no proof that I misinterpreted the verses I posted....'fallen from grace' means exactly that 'fallen from grace'.

------------

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God...." Why the command to keep yourselves in the love of God if it were impossble to fall from God's love/grace?

Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"

"IF" the Christian would continue to obey the Lord, "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light, 1 Jn 1:7 they will continue to be forgiven and this is how the Lord is able to keep them,guard them from falling. Compare to Peter's words "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins..Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" Giving diligence to make your calling and election sure means one must keep on obeying the Lord's words and by doing so one shall never fall. The Lord is able to guard those from ever falling "IF" they keep His word by make their calling and election sure.

---------------------

Jn 10:27 the ones that qualify as Christ sheep and that God holds in His had are those that CONDITIONALLY continue to hear and follow Christ. If one quits hearing and following Christ he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep and removes himself from God's hand. No verse teaches God will unconditionally remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

The 2 parts of salvation seen in this context:
1) mans faithfulness to God
2) God' faithfulness to man.

Those that remain faithful in their hearing and following God will, in turn, remain faithful to them by not allowing to perish or be snatched out of His hand. The context does not say God will UNconditionally hold them in His hand no matter what the sheep do, that God will continue to hold them in His hand even if they quit hearing and following.

==========================

Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Note the verse begins with the important "in Whom". Paul is addressing the group called "Christian" that is conditionally located "in Christ". The group Christian is who is sealed here, not any individual being UNconditionally sealed. The group Christian is and always will be sealed but one can fall from the group. If one falls from the group, the group continues to be sealed but the one that fell from this sealed group will not continue to be sealed. No INDIVIDUAL is ever sealed UNconditionally apart from the group Christian. For a person to be CONDITIONALLY sealed he must CONDITIONALLY be in the group Christian and CONDITIONALLY remain in that group.

=====================

"Not of works" in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit one does that he could boast about. "Not of works" does not eliminate ALL types of works as obedient works or the good works Christians are to do in verse 10. By trying to make "not of works" eliminate ALL works will create a whole host of contradictions among verses that you can never untangle.

========

Jn 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

---The verb 'believeth" is present tense denoting the belief must be ongoing and continuous and cannot be a one time thing or something done sporadicaly If one quits believing he no long has everlasting life. One chooses of his own freewill to believe and one can of his own feewill choose to quit believing.

---Jesus did NOT say "He that believeth only..." Adding the word "only" to the text perverts it where one no longer has Christ's word but his own perverted words.

CHrist has said:

Jn 3:16-------------belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk13:3,5-----------repentance>>>>>saves
Mt:10,32,33------confession>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then a NT belief must include repentance confession and baptism. In Jn 6:47 "believeth" is being used as a synecdoche (a part stands for the whole) where the part "believeth" stands for repentance, confession and baptism.

======================================

I saved the best for last:

Seabass posted "Who will receive God's grace unconditionally without faith, without repentance, without confession, without baptism? No one."

Vigilant_Warrior posted (my emp) "And here we have the epic display of how false and dishonest your teaching is, because no one has made any such claim. You have to lie about those who oppose this heresy in order to attempt to get others to accept it. May God deal with you and your false doctrine. I'm finished with you."

You call me a liar for you say that no one here has made the claim that one can receive God's grace unconditionally.

Yet YOU plainly posted in your post #26 (your emp) "If not for the grace of God, offered without condition, guilty man would remain under His judgment and coming wrath."

So YOU said YOURSELF Gods grace is offered UNcondtionally meaning one does not have to conditionally have faith, not have to repent, not have to confess, not have be baptized to receive God's grace but that grace is received UNconditionally.

So we see who the true liar here is. You have been exposed and your fake outrage at the end of your posts looks really silly now.

SeaBass · Feb 26, 2015

BradC said:

Jude 1:21 "Keep (imperative mood) yourselves in the love of God..."

Why would the child of God be COMMANDED to keep himself in the love of God if being in God's love is completely,totally UNconditional?

psalm6819 · Feb 26, 2015

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

His grace is sufficient.

BradC · Feb 26, 2015

SeaBass said:

We are to keep ourselves in the unconditional love of God and not in some other form of love. When anyone teaches or puts conditions upon the love of God, we are to keep ourselves in God's unconditional agape love. We need to continually be responding to the love of God by faith with the understanding that we are always loved without conditions. God is love and He loves us freely with no attachments.

SeaBass · Feb 26, 2015

BradC said:

My point is that it CANNOT be UNconditional if the child of God must do some thing/meet some condition to keep himself in God's love. The implication of Jude's statement is that one can fall from God's love which would not be possible if it were unconditional.

Jn 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;...."

The verse begins with "IF" which is a conditional word. The verb "keep" is subjunctive mood.

Subjunctive mood: "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. " from Strong's.

Abiding in God's love "may or may not occur depending upon the circumstance" IF one keeps God's commandments.

BradC · Feb 26, 2015

To keep ourselves in the love of God is to abide in that love. If we are wronged by a brother we do not react but we keep ourselves in the unconditional love of God. We do not keep tract of how we were wronged but we abide in that love which is from God unconditionally given unto us. This is the same love that we are to love our brother who has wronged us.

THE GRACE OF GOD

Senior Member

psychomom

Guest

VioletReigns

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Mitspa

Guest

psychomom

Guest

DesiredHaven

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Viligant_Warrior

Guest

Banned

Banned

BradC

Guest

Banned

Banned

psalm6819

Guest

BradC

Guest

Banned

BradC

Guest