THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Hizikyah]

If you feel you need to try to score points ridiculing another's blog name, that only makes you look desperate or immature. I suggest you just focus on points made through scripture.

Also, you guys preach a see-saw ighteousness where you're in and out of righteousness depending on whether you've kept your sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions. Such doctrine is error.

BTW, you wrongly use 1John 1:8 as your excuse for your failure to keep the law.1John 1:8 refers to non-believers (hypocrites/Legalists like Paul was prior to conversion, thinking they were sinless under the law Phil 3:6).

Read 1John 1 from the beginning and note its evangelical context. It declares eternal life (John 3:16) so that the lost that it addresses may also have fellowship...

You call people Lawless and then im the bad guy for making a pun on your name?

I apologize if it offended you, sincerely, I know im not perfect,

but I have an honest question for you about your doctrine and the effects thereof...

since nothing you do can be counted as sin in your eyes, do you ever apologize to people? Or is that for sinners?

 

[ELECT]

Try to put this together...its not hard...God is love...all the law is fulfilled in one word...Christ said this is My commandment , that you love one another as I have loved you....Paul said nothing profits but faith working by love...James called it the Royal law... The Holy Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts.... what do you think God is writing on the hearts of believers? Its not hard to figure out!

Are you saying the law is done away ( fullfilled ) in one word what i think He is writting

thy word have i hid in my heart includes all the commandments

 

[Mitspa]

That is where you are wrong, for the chart I gave showed everywhere he used the 10 Commandments.
And each time it was used as things believers were to still uphold and live in their lives.

Ephesians 6:1-2

6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2“Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Colossians 3:8
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
( 3rd Commandment )


Here are just a couple of what Paul said to believers showing we are to still uphold the commandments, and then here is a showing that Paul upheld the rest of what the Lord said;

Colossians 3:13
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

What? a chart? read the Words of God...and believe the truth and the truth will set you free!

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Hizikyah]

Try to put this together...its not hard...God is love...all the law is fulfilled in one word...Christ said this is My commandment , that you love one another as I have loved you....Paul said nothing profits but faith working by love...James called it the Royal law... The Holy Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts.... what do you think God is writing on the hearts of believers? Its not hard to figure out!

So how do we love?

Try to put this together...its not hard

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

 

[ELECT]

What? a chart? read the Words of God...and believe the truth and the truth will set you free!

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What law is that is it the that says thou shall not kill ?

 

[Mitspa]

Are you saying the law is done away ( fullfilled ) in one word what i think He is writting

thy word have i hid in my heart includes all the commandments

So whats your point? Do you understand the difference between the "letter" and the "Spirit"? You cannot serve God by the written code! But by the Spirit of God that sheds God love abroad in the hearts of those who have the Spirit.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Mitspa]

What law is that is it the that says thou shall not kill ?

If you walk in the love of God...who you going to kill? But if you don't walk in the love of God you are already a murderer at heart!

 

[Mitspa]

So how do we love?



1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Do you have the Holy Spirit? Has He not shed Gods love abroad to your heart?

 

[haz]

then you dont understand grace
What is a statute and precept ? Are they same or different ?

I see you too are trying to split the law up in an attempt to make scripture fit with the doctrine you follow.

for your own sake you should turn instead to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It has two commandments, which are believe on Jesus, and love one another, 1John 3:23.

The simplicity that is in Christ is what Legalists have been deceived away from, 2Cor 11:3.

 

[haz]

So how do we love?


1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

then why do you fail to keep the law and justify your failure by misusing 1John 1:8?

 

[kennethcadwell]

What? a chart? read the Words of God...and believe the truth and the truth will set you free!

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I do read the words of God, and the chart showed everywhere in the word of God Paul and the NT upheld the 10 Commandments and how believers in Him are to do the same;




Old Testament New Testament
--------------- ----------------


First
Commandment
Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7 Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7


Second
Commandment
Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10 Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5


Third
Commandment
Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11 Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7


Fourth
Commandment
Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15 Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6


Fifth
Commandment
Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16 Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3


Sixth
Commandment
Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17 Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9


Seventh
Commandment
Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18 Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9


Eighth
Commandment
Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21


Ninth
Commandment
Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25


10th
Commandment
Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21 Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5

 

[haz]

You call people Lawless and then im the bad guy for making a pun on your name?

I apologize if it offended you, sincerely, I know im not perfect,

but I have an honest question for you about your doctrine and the effects thereof...

since nothing you do can be counted as sin in your eyes, do you ever apologize to people? Or is that for sinners?

We both called each other lawless according to our understanding of scriptures. So this should not be used as justification for ridiculing another's blog name.

BTW, I was not offended with your ridicule. My point was that such behavior reflects badly on anyone who resorts to it.

And yes, I do apologize to others.

 

[ELECT]

If you walk in the love of God...who you going to kill? But if you don't walk in the love of God you are already a murderer at heart!

you keep biting yourself the law of God was given in love yet many say it was done away Cain killed way before Mt Sinai

God gave Moses the law because Israel had fogotten and also that Israel may fear forever

 

[Mitspa]

I do read the words of God, and the chart showed everywhere in the word of God Paul and the NT upheld the 10 Commandments and how believers in Him are to do the same;

What do you think that proves? Read the clear evident words of the New Testament! The law has its purpose and we in Christ uphold that love alone fulfills what the law demanded...but we are not under the law and do not serve God by the written code of Moses....
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Mitspa]

you keep biting yourself the law of God was given in love yet many say it was done away Cain killed way before Mt Sinai

God gave Moses the law because Israel had fogotten and also that Israel may fear forever

well your wrong...the law was given to condemn the whole world and bring all to Christ to be justified by His Grace...

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Hizikyah]

We both called each other lawless according to our understanding of scriptures. So this should not be used as justification for ridiculing another's blog name.

BTW, I was not offended with your ridicule. My point was that such behavior reflects badly on anyone who resorts to it.

And yes, I do apologize to others.

Doctrine is most important. I made the pun on your name not to offend, and im glad you were not offended, but rather it was how I felt your teaching was, again not to offend, I just thought it fit. Honestly it is hard to talk to you because you twist ever verse to say the Law is bad, even Jude who says men have crept in and turned mercy into Lawlessness you said actually meant those who follow the Law are bad.

And when I posted rev 12:17, not today but a few days ago, I dont remember exactly what you said but it was so out in left field it completely ignored the verse, I honestly fell like there is no point in talking to you because there is no breaking down of what is actually written but rather personal attacks, so that is why I said toxic.

 

[haz]

I do read the words of God, and the chart showed everywhere in the word of God Paul and the NT upheld the 10 Commandments and how believers in Him are to do the same.5

As I said before, you have misused many scriptures in an attempt to prop up an error doctrine.

But consider the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3, that you have sadly been deceived away from.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.

But the error doctrine you follow declares 2 different gospels depending on our circumstances.

1: For those with death bed salvation, such are truly blessed as they only need to obey Christ's commandment that we believe on him.

2: Those who live on as Christians must also do works of the law and whenever they fail this they must keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions or else they will be unrighteous and condemned.

This latter 2nd gospel that you preach offers a precarious see-saw righteousness based on works of the law and keeping ones sin ledger perfectly balanced. Such a gospel is error and is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. God says we cannot do this, Rom 11:6.

 

[Hizikyah]

As I said before, you have misused many scriptures in an attempt to prop up an error doctrine.

But consider the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3, that you have sadly been deceived away from.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.

But the error doctrine you follow declares 2 different gospels depending on our circumstances.

1: For those with death bed salvation, such are truly blessed as they only need to obey Christ's commandment that we believe on him.

2: Those who live on as Christians must also do works of the law and whenever they fail this they must keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions or else they will be unrighteous and condemned.

This latter 2nd gospel that you preach offers a precarious see-saw righteousness based on works of the law and keeping ones sin ledger perfectly balanced. Such a gospel is error and is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. God says we cannot do this, Rom 11:6.

How can you claim Messiah and reject what He says?

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

2 Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of holiness, but denying the authority of it--from such turn away!"

 

[haz]

Doctrine is most important. I made the pun on your name not to offend, and im glad you were not offended, but rather it was how I felt your teaching was, again not to offend, I just thought it fit. Honestly it is hard to talk to you because you twist ever verse to say the Law is bad, even Jude who says men have crept in and turned mercy into Lawlessness you said actually meant those who follow the Law are bad.

And when I posted rev 12:17, not today but a few days ago, I dont remember exactly what you said but it was so out in left field it completely ignored the verse, I honestly fell like there is no point in talking to you because there is no breaking down of what is actually written but rather personal attacks, so that is why I said toxic.

I never said the law is bad.
I've even quoted Rom 7:12 that the law is good, just and holy.

My point has always been about how we are to be determined as righteous.
Legalists always wrongly preach works of the law for this, and it's this that I dispute, quoting many scriptures to confirm it.

Regarding Rev 12:17, my reponse to you, which you thought was out left field, was that as you do NOT keep the law anyway then you yourself are condemned by the point you make on Rev 12:17.

 

[haz]

How can you claim Messiah and reject what He says?

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

2 Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of holiness, but denying the authority of it--from such turn away!"

2Tim 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away

What is godliness?
1Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

1Tim 4:8
godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

And what is the power of godliness?
Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek