THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[kennethcadwell]

No im trying to show you that you are not keeping what you are preaching...no one can keep the law by the written code! God made it to show us our sin that we don't love God with ALL our hearts and minds...but you guys pretend you are keeping it when its clear your not...


Ro 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

You need to understand their is a big difference between the Mosaic laws and God's moral laws.
Until you understand that then your debate is useless and a mute point, because those who are in Christ know the difference. We know we are not justified by the Mosaic law of the old covenant, but we are called to walk in His moral laws that are written on our hearts of follow as an everyday way of life and not a set of ordinances.
It seems you can not get over the fact that God's moral laws is contained within all that He said in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And the Lord makes a point that if those things are not part of the believers walk then they are not His.
We do keep that command by showing our obedience to Him by how we live our lives, we continue with the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit to refrain from sin and when we do sin we confess that sin for forgiveness. You continue to try to bend the perfectness around sin, which is not what the bible means by be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Being perfect means to walk in love for Him, and others.......
We continue in that love by admitting and confessing our faults for that forgiveness, then we are clean from all unrighteousness as we continue to do that.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa can you prove your no Law doctrine from anyone outside of Paul? What happened to 2 or 3 witnesses?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Paul wrote 75% of the New Testament.... He alone was given the revelation of grace....and you don't believe him, why would I waste time trying to teach you from the rest of Gods Word when you already reject it?

 

[kennethcadwell]

They were baptising others and not themselves and when was the thief on the cross baptised?over and over again it is stated in the NT that whosoever shall believe in the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved, with no water mentioned. I meant do you carry a bucket of water to the hospital to pray for the sick, if you don't then you are a hypocrite.

John baptized them as that scripture in John 3 says, it says Jesus disciples came in verse 22 and they were baptized by John in verse 23.

Plus the command to be baptized in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 is Baptizo;

Our LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - King James VersionBaptizo
[h=1]Baptizo[/h]

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The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD] Strong's Number: 907[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (911)[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Baptizo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:529,92[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]bap-tid'-zo [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
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1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

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Then Peter says this in Acts;

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

He said it like this because no man has the right to undo what the Lord had commanded to be done.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Paul wrote 75% of the New Testament.... He alone was given the revelation of grace....and you don't believe him, why would I waste time trying to teach you from the rest of Gods Word when you already reject it?

Because you make the fallacy of thinking that Paul preached a different gospel then Jesus, which scripture from Paul himself says he can not do, nor can anybody else, not even an angel claiming to be from God.

 

[Mitspa]

Because you make the fallacy of thinking that Paul preached a different gospel then Jesus, which scripture from Paul himself says he can not do, nor can anybody else, not even an angel claiming to be from God.

Do you don't understand Paul ...therefore you don't understand the Lords words and why He brought the law to unbending standard...... Its different to you not to me

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul wrote 75% of the New Testament.... He alone was given the revelation of grace....and you don't believe him, why would I waste time trying to teach you from the rest of Gods Word when you already reject it?

So his message is different than all other Scripture in your view?

Is this right or wrong in your doctrine?

IS THIS VERSE STILL VALID?

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Mitspa]

So his message is different than all other Scripture in your view?

Is this right or wrong in your doctrine?

IS THIS VERSE STILL VALID?

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

No its all perfectly in harmony to me...its you guys that seem to have a cow over Pauls writtings and cant seem to make them agree with the Lords Words? I say they agree perfectly in context of the righteousness of faith.

 

[Mitspa]

So his message is different than all other Scripture in your view?

Is this right or wrong in your doctrine?

IS THIS VERSE STILL VALID?

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Yes of course ...who rejected Him and His words? The hypocrites and self-righteous! Its the same today for those who reject His Word of grace and try to justify themselves by the law.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Hizikyah]

and you don't believe him

Dang you know peoples thoughts even when they have not spoken?

wow your like houdini or sum-tin!

lol are you wired into the panopticonic spy grid?

or maybe omnipresent?

or just falsely accusing...

probably what ever one is the simplest....

 

[kennethcadwell]

Do you don't understand Paul ...therefore you don't understand the Lords words and why He brought the law to unbending standard...... Its different to you not to me

I do understand the Lord's words which is why I know that Paul did not preach a different gospel message, he only confirmed what the Lord Jesus said.
I know they are not different, and I even awhile back posted scripture from the Lord, Paul, Peter, James, and John and showed how they all matched. You are the one who thinks two different gospels were preached because when we post scripture from the Lord, you say does not apply, done away with at the cross, fulfilled at the cross, and so on....
Paul disagrees with that and taught the same things the Lord taught.

The great commission was not changed when Paul came as you make it out to sound;

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The scripture above is the real scripture, but by the way you talk you make it sound like;

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you until Paul comes then he will teach you more truth. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes of course ...who rejected Him and His words? The hypocrites and self-righteous! Its the same today for those who reject His Word of grace and try to justify themselves by the law.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ok im glad you say it is still valid. SO is every thing the Messiah said still valid and to be followed? I have to ask for clarification.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Dang you know peoples thoughts even when they have not spoken?

wow your like houdini or sum-tin!

lol are you wired into the panopticonic spy grid?

or maybe omnipresent?

or just falsely accusing...

probably what ever one is the simplest....

I would go with the falsely accusing, as those who don't like us who preach doing what the Lord said out of love for Him constantly do.

 

[Hizikyah]

No its all perfectly in harmony to me...its you guys that seem to have a cow over Pauls writtings and cant seem to make them agree with the Lords Words? I say they agree perfectly in context of the righteousness of faith.

Its not Paul's writing, it's peoples misunderstanding of Paul's writings.

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Since you preach a Lawless doctrine (IMO) is it possible that you have become slave to the misunderstanding as Peter warned us of?

 

[Mitspa]

Ok im glad you say it is still valid. SO is every thing the Messiah said still valid and to be followed? I have to ask for clarification.

Look Hiz at no time have I in anyway rejected any part of Gods Word...in fact im the one who upholds all its standards and truths. Its you and those like you who claim part of the law is valid and part it not...and part of what the Lord said is absolute and part is not....do you pluck your eye out before you look to lust? or cut your hand off? Don't you keep His Words?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Its not Paul's writing, it's peoples misunderstanding of Paul's writings.

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Since you preach a Lawless doctrine (IMO) is it possible that you have become slave to the misunderstanding as Peter warned us of?

Exactly, and even I have used this scripture countless of times now that show Peter stating how Paul's writings can be hard to understand and then get twisted by those who are unlearned and unstable. For Peter was making a point once again that Paul did not preach anything different then what the Lord already gave to them previously to carry out to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. It was the same gospel message and Lord Jesus preached by both of them, that Jesus gave.

 

[Mitspa]

Its not Paul's writing, it's peoples misunderstanding of Paul's writings.

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Since you preach a Lawless doctrine (IMO) is it possible that you have become slave to the misunderstanding as Peter warned us of?

No you don't understand and reject clear words with clear and evident meanings!

see if you can explain this passage ?

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Look Hiz at no time have I in anyway rejected any part of Gods Word...in fact im the one who upholds all its standards and truths. Its you and those like you who claim part of the law is valid and part it not...and part of what the Lord said is absolute and part is not....do you pluck your eye out before you look to lust? or cut your hand off? Don't you keep His Words?

So you have never rejected the Lords words?

What comes first eternal life, or endurance? Jesus gives the answer to this, and is confirmed in Hebrews.

 

[Mitspa]

Exactly, and even I have used this scripture countless of times now that show Peter stating how Paul's writings can be hard to understand and then get twisted by those who are unlearned and unstable. For Peter was making a point once again that Paul did not preach anything different then what the Lord already gave to them previously to carry out to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. It was the same gospel message and Lord Jesus preached by both of them, that Jesus gave.

Yea and you guys cant not even explain any part of it...nor do you keep the law, nor can you explain what part of the law is valid?

1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No you don't understand and reject clear words with clear and evident meanings!

see if you can explain this passage ?

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Because once again this is talking about being justified by the mosaic law, it is not talking about God's moral laws written in our hearts.

 

[Mitspa]

So you have never rejected the Lords words?

What comes first eternal life, or endurance? Jesus gives the answer to this, and is confirmed in Hebrews.

Have you? do you pluck out your eye?